Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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I suppose the Reformed also misunderstand that when we were in Adam, we were enemies of God when He reconciled
us (Rom 5:10)? But even so...we still harbored nice, kind thoughts about him, right? No one really hates God, right?
us (Rom 5:10)? But even so...we still harbored nice, kind thoughts about him, right? No one really hates God, right?
I'm going to take the @PaulThomson analysis step by step & my comments are solely based in looking at the Thessalonian letters and not outside of them:
- "from the beginning" is a translational choice.
- Some translators choose rather to see it as a complement to the direct object "you" (plural) and meaning "first-fruits/portion." Apparently some or much of the reasoning is based upon some differences in manuscripts. So, this may or may not be talking specifically about "from the beginning" but specifying what God chose them as (grammatical expletive). Both the NET and the ESV Bibles provide notes about this.
- If it is "from the beginning" - then I would preliminarily agree with @PaulThomson that this "beginning" has to do with when they first believed. This seems to be the best decision contextually in 1-2 Thess and because this is the only time this word is used in 1-2 Thess.
- If "first fruits" is the meaning and it is an object/complement, then the timing related issue in this word is for the most part removed other than what "first-fruits" entails and includes.
- The time related focus in 1-2 Thess seems mainly if not exclusively from the Gospel forward.
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Yes...a man-made doctrine that very likely goes by the "label" of Arminianism or Pelagianism; but identifying names are beneath the dignity of some here. They would rather pretend they are more noble than others and boldly claim they came up with their "solid biblical" views all by their lonesome, and as far they know they have nothing in common with any writer's views in the historical Church. They're just the Purest of the Puritans.
But...in the last few days, sister, I have put together another argument that will thoroughly debunk the wordly, fleshly misconceptions of what spiritual knowledge and understanding is and how it's acquired. The detractors of the true Gospel will not like what I write and will no doubt largely ignore that argument as they have ignored my post-Fall argument for Unconditional Election in the Garden, and then later the Exodus Typology of Redemption. So, I post mainly for the benefit of like-minded people who may be unaware of or have never come to fully appreciate the significance of the particular biblical perspective I take, which ironically, like the Exodus narrative, is nevertheless another major biblical theme.
I hope you'll find my argument informative and edifying and I look forward to your constructive criticisms, additional insights, etc.
But...in the last few days, sister, I have put together another argument that will thoroughly debunk the wordly, fleshly misconceptions of what spiritual knowledge and understanding is and how it's acquired. The detractors of the true Gospel will not like what I write and will no doubt largely ignore that argument as they have ignored my post-Fall argument for Unconditional Election in the Garden, and then later the Exodus Typology of Redemption. So, I post mainly for the benefit of like-minded people who may be unaware of or have never come to fully appreciate the significance of the particular biblical perspective I take, which ironically, like the Exodus narrative, is nevertheless another major biblical theme.
I hope you'll find my argument informative and edifying and I look forward to your constructive criticisms, additional insights, etc.
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cont'd
- God...chose you (Thess Christians):
- "chose" is the word "haireō we were discussing earlier in this thread in relation to "free will." It's one of only 3 times the word in form is used in the NC. In the Greek middle voice this verb per the Lexicons means to choose/select and it can also mean to take for oneself. It is typically translated as "choose."
- Based upon what I posted just before this post, God either:
- Chose the Thess Christians from the beginning (likely per context the beginning of their belief in the Gospel)
- Chose the Thess Christians as first-fruits (among the early Christians)
- God chose the Thess Christians for salvation:
- "for salvation"
- "for" is translating the preposition "eis" which at it's most basic means "into"
- Looked at spatially, if we draw a circle and label that circle "salvation" then eis is an arrow beginning outside the circle and proceeding into it. Again, at its basic it shows a transition from outside to inside.
- It can overlap with other prepositions such as "en" (in, inside) and it is used figuratively to speak of things like:
- a goal or a place
- a purpose
- a point of reference
- etc.
- I see this as telling us God chose the these Thessalonians for the purpose of entering them into His Salvation Plan. Since there is quite a bit of overlap in these figurative meanings, it could be "with reference to salvation" or something similar. It seems "for salvation" covers it clearly enough. When I see "eis" I see the transition. As a side note John most frequently says "believe eis/into Christ" rather than "believe en/in Christ.
- Salvation:
- "salvation" and "sav*" are only mentioned once each in 2Thess and only 5x total in 1-2 Thess.
- 2Thess2:10 speaks of saved re: those who are perishing.
- 2Thess2:13 speaks of salvation for those God has chosen.
- Since God chose for salvation the Thessalonians Paul is addressing, at this point I'd include salvation stages/phases 1-3 in the 2:13 statement (see the following also).
- In 1Thess2:16 Paul speaks of being prevented by Judeans from speaking to Gentiles to save them (stage 1 but not limited to 1)
- In 1Thess5:8 Paul speaks of the hope of salvation (stage/phase 3 but see next note on 5:9).
- In 1Thess5:9 Paul speaks of salvation from God's wrath (so resurrection is not the specific focus and depending on one's eschatology, we may have to discuss 4 phases/stages of salvation - I can say that when I was studying and teaching salvation and how it's discussed in the Text, I kept seeing such potential additions and seem to recall at least 5 concepts.)
- As a side note, salvation from wrath is also key to Paul's usage in Romans, coincidentally also in 5:9.
- Although I see 2Thess2:13 speaking of the full scope of salvation, @PaulThomson point re: salvation stage/phase 3 is understandable. The focus of the letter is on Christian growth and maintaining the advance in and through s/p 2-3 including however we understand the then eschatological wrath of God.
“Fear of the Lord” is a gift from the Holy Spirit. It is not flight from threat, pure terror, or simply alarm or fright. Rather, it is knowledge and experience of God as utterly holy, totally other, incomprehensible, absolute, almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing, and absolutely majestic.
At some time in the past, I copied this quote in a file and it was either anonymous or I forgot to give attribution to it. If memory serves, I believe the Catholic Church subscribes to the specific sentiment expressed above; for I don't recall any Protestant thinking along lines of "gift". This quote caught my attention when I first read it because of the majesty the writer gives to the gift of the Spirit and to the Spirit himself.
And this brings me to the point of this post and the next two that immediately follow. A great deal of "ink" has been spent in recent exchanges among posters on this thread in talking about spiritual knowledge and understanding. Yet, personally I have found very little light to have been shined on this particular subject. Sadly, far more conjecture and opinions have been expressed than biblical truth. Some have opined basically that God has given all fallen mankind some kind of innate ability to discern spiritual truth. Or some have opined that man himself has this natural ability. It's in his DNA. |Both of these views totally miss the mark, according to my understanding of scripture. Also, for the most part the role that the heart of man plays in appropriating or discerning spiritual truth and understanding it was given very short shrift.
As a lover of the Wisdom Books in the OT, including the Psalms, I have come to understand that Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding are indeed gifts of God; but also that men are enjoined to actively seek these gifts. You might recall that God asked king Solomon what gift he desired; and Solomon humbled himself by essentially admitting that he felt inadequate in his kingship role, for he didn't know exactly how to carry out his awesome responsibilities. So, the young, inexperienced ruler asked God to give him a discerning heart so that he would be able to distinguish between right and wrong. God, of course, was very pleased with this request and no doubt the humility of Solomon's own heart, as well, that moved him to make it. He granted his request and promised to give the king a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like him previously, nor would there ever be (1Ki 3:1-12).
And what's even more fascinating (and often overlooked fact) is that Solomon wanted a discerning heart so that he would be able "to distinguish between right and wrong". At first blush a rather odd request given the fact that Israel was the privileged recipient of the Law of Moses! If right and wrong aren't explicated in the Law, then what is!? Is there a lesson for us to be learned today? Why did Solomon think he needed more than the Law -- more than Special Revelation? Do we today need more than than the Messianic Law and the Gospel in the New Covenant -- more than the Word of God? Should we, too, as servants of the the Most High God and disciples of Christ also have the same humility and sense of inadequacy that Solomon did? Should we be asking God for Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding? Are these attributes to be found both in and outside of scripture? Just a few questions to try to get people's cognitive wheels spinning...
So some of you are wondering by now what does all this have to do with quote above and the Fear of the Lord? Short answer: only everything! This is what we're going to learn. In the next post, we'll look briefly at the Prologue to Proverbs (1:1-7) which gives us the theme and purpose of the book. Then in my third post, we'll dig a little deeper to find out how critically important Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding is to one's spiritual welfare, and what the crucial and indispensable role of the Fear of the Lord is in acquiring these attributes. Because the Fear of the Lord, in all the many exchanges on the topic of Knowledge and Understanding, was totally M.I.A., I also unearthed the three dilemmas that surfaced in those opinions that were exchanged and opposed to scripture. I purposely didn't provide the biblical solution to this conundrum. I would rather give everyone some time to see if you can come up with the biblical answer. But if not...I'll provide it in a fourth post.
At some time in the past, I copied this quote in a file and it was either anonymous or I forgot to give attribution to it. If memory serves, I believe the Catholic Church subscribes to the specific sentiment expressed above; for I don't recall any Protestant thinking along lines of "gift". This quote caught my attention when I first read it because of the majesty the writer gives to the gift of the Spirit and to the Spirit himself.
And this brings me to the point of this post and the next two that immediately follow. A great deal of "ink" has been spent in recent exchanges among posters on this thread in talking about spiritual knowledge and understanding. Yet, personally I have found very little light to have been shined on this particular subject. Sadly, far more conjecture and opinions have been expressed than biblical truth. Some have opined basically that God has given all fallen mankind some kind of innate ability to discern spiritual truth. Or some have opined that man himself has this natural ability. It's in his DNA. |Both of these views totally miss the mark, according to my understanding of scripture. Also, for the most part the role that the heart of man plays in appropriating or discerning spiritual truth and understanding it was given very short shrift.
As a lover of the Wisdom Books in the OT, including the Psalms, I have come to understand that Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding are indeed gifts of God; but also that men are enjoined to actively seek these gifts. You might recall that God asked king Solomon what gift he desired; and Solomon humbled himself by essentially admitting that he felt inadequate in his kingship role, for he didn't know exactly how to carry out his awesome responsibilities. So, the young, inexperienced ruler asked God to give him a discerning heart so that he would be able to distinguish between right and wrong. God, of course, was very pleased with this request and no doubt the humility of Solomon's own heart, as well, that moved him to make it. He granted his request and promised to give the king a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like him previously, nor would there ever be (1Ki 3:1-12).
And what's even more fascinating (and often overlooked fact) is that Solomon wanted a discerning heart so that he would be able "to distinguish between right and wrong". At first blush a rather odd request given the fact that Israel was the privileged recipient of the Law of Moses! If right and wrong aren't explicated in the Law, then what is!? Is there a lesson for us to be learned today? Why did Solomon think he needed more than the Law -- more than Special Revelation? Do we today need more than than the Messianic Law and the Gospel in the New Covenant -- more than the Word of God? Should we, too, as servants of the the Most High God and disciples of Christ also have the same humility and sense of inadequacy that Solomon did? Should we be asking God for Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding? Are these attributes to be found both in and outside of scripture? Just a few questions to try to get people's cognitive wheels spinning...
So some of you are wondering by now what does all this have to do with quote above and the Fear of the Lord? Short answer: only everything! This is what we're going to learn. In the next post, we'll look briefly at the Prologue to Proverbs (1:1-7) which gives us the theme and purpose of the book. Then in my third post, we'll dig a little deeper to find out how critically important Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding is to one's spiritual welfare, and what the crucial and indispensable role of the Fear of the Lord is in acquiring these attributes. Because the Fear of the Lord, in all the many exchanges on the topic of Knowledge and Understanding, was totally M.I.A., I also unearthed the three dilemmas that surfaced in those opinions that were exchanged and opposed to scripture. I purposely didn't provide the biblical solution to this conundrum. I would rather give everyone some time to see if you can come up with the biblical answer. But if not...I'll provide it in a fourth post.
The Prologue to Proverbs
Prov 1:1-71:1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
2 for attaining wisdom and discipline;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the young —
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance —
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
NIV
A few brief observations from this prologue:
1. A source of Spiritual Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge is divine revelation (scripture). None of us are born with these spiritual attributes since we were all born in the Darkness of Death (Jn 12:46; Eph 5:8).
2. The Wise and Discerning must listen to instruction to increase their knowledge and gain understanding The passage doesn't say anything about fools listening to add to their learning. Nor did Solomon say, "let all men" listen. It seems that it was a forgone conclusion in Solomon's mind that only the Wise and Discerning would want to heed his teachings.
3. Spiritual Truth, generally, and Solomon's proverbs, specifically, are necessary for acquiring a disciplined and prudent lifestyle and for doing what is right, just and fair. Yet, those who are pershing refuse to love the [Gospel truth (2Thes 2:10); instead, men love the darkness since their deeds are evil (Jn 3:19); therefore, they hate the light of God's Truth and will not come to it (Jn 3:20).
4. Clearly, the wise understand the "fear of the Lord" is a prerequisite to acquiring knowledge (cp. also Isa 33:6) and this fear is a disposition of the heart, not just the mind (Deut 5:29; Jer 32:39-40), whereby the God-fearer finds great delight in God's commandments (Ps 112:1).
5. Conversely, "fools" (natural man) despise Wisdom and God's discipline, since they hate God and His Son (Isa 49:7; Zech 11:8-9; Ps 2:1-3; Jn 7:7; 15:23; Rom 8:7-8, etc.
In the next post, we'll learn of more things the natural man despises.
The Things Fools Hate and the Wise Love
1. In addition to fools despising Wisdom (Prov 1:7), which is the flip side to the Knowledge coin, they also hate Knowledge itself and love their simple ways (Prov 1:22).
2. And because fools hate Knowledge they have no desire to freely choose the Fear the Lord (Prov 1:29).
3. The Wise and Discerning, however, turn their ear to Knowledge (Prov 18:15), apply their heart to Understanding to understand the Fear of the Lord and find the Knowledge of God because, unlike fools, they take pleasure in such Wisdom (Prov 18:2), so they accept Solomon's wise words and store up his commands with them, understanding it is the Lord who gives Wisdom and from his mouth come Knowledge and Understanding (Prov 2:1-6); but fools do not acquire Wisdom since they have no desire for it (Prov 17:16).
4. The way to shun and hate evil is to Fear the Lord (Prov 3:7; 8:13); yet, the fool cannot hate evil and shun it because he has no desire to choose the Fear of the Lord (Prov 1:29).
5. I (Wisdom personified) love those who love me and those who seek me find me (Prov 3:17).
6. Wisdom dwells together with Prudence, Knowledge and Discretion, possesses Counsel and Sound Judgment and has Understanding and Power (Prov 8:12-14).
7. Of the Messiah it is written:
Isa 11:2-3
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him —
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD —
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
NIV
8. it is also said of the Christ that all the treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge are hidden in Him (Col 2:3)
9. For these reasons it is said of Wisdom and Understanding:
Prov 4:5-9
5 Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or swerve from them.
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.
7 Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
8 Esteem her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.
9 She will set a garland of grace on your head
and present you with a crown of splendor."
NIV
10. Moreover, it is written about the Fear of the Lord:
Prov 9:10
10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
NIV
11. But those who hate Wisdom love Death (Prov 8:36), which is natural, for all men are born in the Darkness of Death anyway (Eph 5:8; Jn 12:46).
So how can anyone be saved since natural man inherently hates Wisdom (Prov 1:7) and Knowledge (Prov 1:22, 29) that they're supposed to diligently and earnestly seek after in God's Word? This is Dilemma Number One: How is man to seek after that which he despises?
Dilemma Number Two: There is no Fear of God in they eyes of the Natural Man (Rom 3:18), for men hate Knowledge and, therefore, cannot choose to Fear God for the very reason they have no desire to! But yet...the Fear of the Lord is the precursor and the key (Prov 1:7; 9:10; Isa 33:6 to seeking the very Wisdom and Knowledge they hate! The sons of men are caught up in a very pernicious cycle from which there is no escape. They are indeed helpless, powerless (Rom 5:6), hopeless prisoners of the Darkness of Death within this vicious, cyclonic whirlwind. It seems to me they desperately need to be rescued (Col 1:13).
But there's still another problem: Dilemma Number Three. True, personal, intimate Knowledge of the Holy One IS true, ultimate Understanding. So, now we have the Word of God defining for us what ultimately true spiritual understanding is -- what the locus of it is! But as we have learned, no one wants that Knowledge anymore than they want to Fear the Lord in order to acquire it! Paul knew what he was talking about in Romans when he said, "No one understands" (Rom 3:11), or that the darkness did not comprehend the light(Jn 1:5). Paul also said there is "no Fear of God in the eyes of men" (Rom 3:18). Yet, in Proverbs 8, we're told that Wisdom and Understanding are supreme and we should get Understanding even it cost us everything we have. Yet, none of this is possible for the Natural Man because he hates Wisdom and Knowledge. And they can't get either of these because they will not/cannot fear God!
It would be foolhardy for anyone to discount or dismiss this tripartite dilemma, since the Fear of the Lord is no small biblical theme. And it so significant in Solomon's mind that he concluded his second Wisdom Book with this:
Eccl 12:13-14
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole [duty] of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
NIV
In Solomon's mind the Chief Duty of man was to Fear God and keep his commandments -- in this logical and biblical order; for one must keep God's commandments with the right motive in his heart, as well.
Before wrapping this post up, I'm mindful of Mr. Studier's conveniently dismissive interpretation of the term "hate". He rationalized the normal force of the word; first by claiming we should understand this only in a "loose" sense (as though just loosely hating God would be acceptable to Him), and secondly when he basically proffered that it probably means no more than "to reject". But isn't this a rather foolish rationalization, since it begs the question? First, why would anyone reject what they love? And in scripture if anyone does not live according to the Greatest Commandment and love the Lord with every fiber of his being, then this is tantamount to hatred for Him! Absence of biblical love for God makes a person worthy of death!
Secondly, why couldn't it be asked, for that matter, "Can't a motive behind rejection be hatred? Couldn't rejection be a natural result or outcome of hatred? For example, if I say, "I categorically reject Joe Biden's platform that he is running on because I hate his political philosophy", would this be far fetched? As rational entities we should have at least one reason behind what we think, say or do, no? Or I could have simply cut to the chase and said, "I hate Biden's platform that he's running on", and been done with it! Obviously, hatred for his platform would at minimum imply rejection. But the reason for the rejection would be hatred for the platform.
As stated in my opening post, I will give everyone time to come up with the biblical solution to these dilemmas. Perhaps someone will come up with a biblical explanation for how God-hating, Christ-hating, Knowledge-hating, Wisdom-hating, Truth-hating, Darkness-loving, Self-loving, Pleasure-loving, Money-loving, World-loving, Death-loving sinners (any of which is, paradoxically, the really bad news of the Gospel) can attain to true Knowledge of God, which itself is true Understanding, which in turn comes only through the narrow gate of the Fear of the Lord which no one has because sinners do not desire to have it, ultimately because of their pride (Ps 36:1-4) and love for the Darkness and Death.
In closing, Matthew Henry once said:
"Where no fear of God is, no good is to be expected." Fallen people might do civic goods that are praiseworthy from a human perspective, but they cannot do what is fully and truly good in the Lord's sight." (emphasis mine)
The Bible does a lot of work to define itself - Scripture with Scripture.
Although I appreciate your posited definitions and can seem some truth in them, I can also see some questionable and maybe to likely wrong things.
The Hebrew word used in Prov1:7 for "fool" looks to be used only 27x in the manuscript I searched. It's not such a huge task to search it and see what the Text says about it. There are also some instructive Lexicons that help.
The LXX word is used over 200x in the Text. It's obviously a bit more work to study and harmonize it. But I will tell you that the LXX translators used a word typically translated as "ungodly" to translate that Hebrew word in Prov1:7.
The Hebrew word for "heart" is used over 600x in the Tanakh. The Greek word over 900x. There's an interesting bit of instruction about the heart in the Theological Workbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) if you can access a copy. If not and if you'd like to read it I can paste it.
There are several insertions in your observations. And my responding observations are not personal. I'd make them knowing or not knowing who wrote them.
My observations in this post are not personal. You are simply providing definitions and explanations that you have not proven with Scripture.
Although I appreciate your posited definitions and can seem some truth in them, I can also see some questionable and maybe to likely wrong things.
The Hebrew word used in Prov1:7 for "fool" looks to be used only 27x in the manuscript I searched. It's not such a huge task to search it and see what the Text says about it. There are also some instructive Lexicons that help.
The LXX word is used over 200x in the Text. It's obviously a bit more work to study and harmonize it. But I will tell you that the LXX translators used a word typically translated as "ungodly" to translate that Hebrew word in Prov1:7.
The Hebrew word for "heart" is used over 600x in the Tanakh. The Greek word over 900x. There's an interesting bit of instruction about the heart in the Theological Workbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) if you can access a copy. If not and if you'd like to read it I can paste it.
There are several insertions in your observations. And my responding observations are not personal. I'd make them knowing or not knowing who wrote them.
My observations in this post are not personal. You are simply providing definitions and explanations that you have not proven with Scripture.
You didn't answer my question: Can you point to any text in the bible that speaks flatteringly of fools? Or conversely, can you point to any passage that speaks poorly of the [godly] wise, as opposed to the worldly wise?
So...the "ungodly" in the LXX = "fools"? And yet, the ungody/fools are not generally referring to the natural man, to unregenerate sinners? Then to whom?
For you info, I have known since I was a babe in Christ that a "fool" in a biblical sense is at bare MINIMUM a highly morally deficient person. And this the way most conservative Evangelicals understand how the word is used.
So...the "ungodly" in the LXX = "fools"? And yet, the ungody/fools are not generally referring to the natural man, to unregenerate sinners? Then to whom?
For you info, I have known since I was a babe in Christ that a "fool" in a biblical sense is at bare MINIMUM a highly morally deficient person. And this the way most conservative Evangelicals understand how the word is used.
cont'd
Maybe we can begin to see what salvation in/by means of sanctification of S(s)pirit and belief/faith of truth means. I can see a few things under S(s)pirit I should shore up, then "belief/faith of truth."
- "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth"
- "through" is translating the preposition "en" that most basically (spatially) means "in".
- Again, like "eis" there are many other ways to translate "en"
- I think many English translations use "through" is because this English word can have the meaning of "by means of" (a process, an agent, etc.)
- "en" can mean "by means of" but I would typically translate it as "be means of " or "by" rather than "through" because there is another preposition that is more basically translated as "through."
- There are several other ways to translate this but for now I'll run with "by means of"
- This prepositional phrase is considered to be attached to "salvation" in this verse and I'm going to use the literal Greek for the prepositional phrases:
- So, it looks like Paul is saying:
- salvation by means of sanctification [of] S(s)pirit, and
- salvation by means of belief/faith [of] truth.
- So, sanctification [of] S(s)pirit, and belief/faith [of] truth are involved in salvation and "by means of" indicates instrumentality - so sanctification [of] S(s)pirit, and belief/faith [of] truth are instrumental in salvation
- So, it looks like Paul is saying:
- sanctification of S(s)pirit
- S(s)pirit:
- At times it's difficult to determine if spirit is referring to the human spirit of the Holy Spirit and translation typically defer to Spirit
- In 1-2 Thess Paul writes "spirit" 8x. Three are in 2Thess:
- 2Thess2:2 Paul speaks of spirit in the sense of a deceiving spirit whether human or demonic or the combining of the two.
- 2Thess2:8 Paul speaks of spirit in the sense of the breath/spirit of/from His mouth
- 2Thess2:13 seems like the Holy Spirit because sanctification is mentioned but continuing the investigation because 2Thess is not as much of a help as I'd like to see.
- 1Thess1:5-6 the Holy Spirit is clearly spelled out (though I'd look just a bit further at 1:6)
- 1Thess4:8 God's Holy Spirit God has given to the Thess Christians.
- 1Thess5:19 Typically considered to be the Holy Spirit to which I'd agree. Christian are commanded not to extinguish the [Holy] Spirit
- 1Thess5:23 is an important one as Paul prays that the God of peace sanctify the Thess Christians [as] complete [men] and that their whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless until the coming/presence of the Lord Jesus Christ.
- So this makes it seem like we should translate 2Thess2:13 as "Spirit" - sanctification of/by [the] Spirit.
- But more research...
- Sanctification:
- 1Thess5:23 uses the verb form of sanctify and God is the one doing the sanctifying. This veb is used only this once in 1-2Thess
- 2Thess2:13 is the only time the noun form is used in 2Thess.
- 1Thess4:3 says the Christians sanctification is God's will. 4:2 Paul says he has given them instructions/commands about this through/as agents of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul proceeds to explain this sanctification:
- You Thess Christians ("you"):
- to abstain from fornication
- 4:4-7 to know to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, etc...
- 4:8 Paul summarizes the reason: God did not call us upon/to uncleanness but in sanctification
- You Thess Christians ("you"):
- So, the interesting things to me is:
- God sanctifies 1Thess5:23
- God's will is the Christian's sanctification.
- God calls Christians to live in sanctification which is contrasted to living in uncleanness.
- Christ teaches through Paul, et.al. what living in sanctification entails.
- Christians actively live in sanctification as instructed/commanded
- S(s)pirit:
- "through" is translating the preposition "en" that most basically (spatially) means "in".
Maybe we can begin to see what salvation in/by means of sanctification of S(s)pirit and belief/faith of truth means. I can see a few things under S(s)pirit I should shore up, then "belief/faith of truth."
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It's your job to define "fool" by Scripture since you're telling us what it means.
I didn't make any conclusion about fools or ungodly. I just pointed out something that could be helpful if you didn't notice it in the Text. It's your job to define and explain with Scripture if you want to be taken seriously. Some of us may just let you make any statement you want and arbitrarily for whatever reason believe you. Some of us require much more and may point this out until if and when we decide to quit trying to do so.
For me, what most conservative Evangelicals understand is not the issue. Actually it's a fallacious form of argumentation to point to this and expect us to believe it because you said it. It's the Text in Christ in Spirit. Isn't that one of the 5 Solas? IMO, it's what most Evangelicals understand/misunderstand that is a big part of the problem in the Ekklesia of Christ.
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Yes, of course it is. But on the other hand, it's helpful to know what the consensus of the historical Church is. Should we not learn from the saints who have gone before us? Or do you, too, despise the gifts God has given to his Church?
So, let me understand this: After being a professing Christian for many decades, you have never reached a solid conclusion in your mind who the fools or the ungodly are spiritually? I suppose, then, the same goes for the wise or godly? You just sort of jumbled both groups together in your head, shrugged your shoulders, rolled your eyes and said, generally, one group is no better or worse than the other? But I have you pretty well figured out already, so I have put together a little biblical list that speaks for itself in terms of how scripture generally characterizes fools. This probably won't satisfy you either, as I'm certain that now even though scripture contrasts the two groups you will still want me to "define" who or what the wise are, right?
I have taken the liberty of highlighting the more gross sins or evil proclivities of fools. Enjoy the read.
Fools are characterized as or known for:
1. being wicked (2Sam 13:13; Ps 94:3,8)
2. mockers of God (Ps 74:22)
3. not understanding their bleak eternal destiny (Ps 92:6)
4. being rebellious (Ps 107:17)
5. despising spiritual wisdom (Prov 1:7)
6. hating spiritual knowledge (Prov 1:22)
7. mockers delighting in mockiery (Prov 1:22)
8. being wayward and complacent (Prov 1:32)
9. being wicked and held up to shame by God (Prov 3:33,35)
10. dying for their lack of knowledge (Prov 10:21)
11. having hearts that blurt our folly (Prov 12:23)
12. detesting the thought to turn away from evil (Prov 13:19)
13. bringing harm to their companions (Prov 13:20)
14. folly in their heart that is deception (Prov 14:8)
15. mockers at making amends for their sins (Prov 14:9)
16. known for their folly that only yields folly (Prov 14:
17. not spreading true [spiritual] knowledge (Prov 15:7)
18. their folly that brings them punishment (Prov 16:22)
20. being ignorant of their wrong-doings (Eccl 5:1)
21. being unpleasing to God (Eccl 5:4)
22. having hearts that are in the house of pleasure (Eccl 7:4)
23. their laughter as being meaningless (Eccl 7:6)
24. their anger residing in their laps (Eccl 7:9)
25. thinking of themselves as wise counselors but only giving senseless advice (Ia 19:11)
26. not being willing to walk in the Way of Holiness (Isa 35:8)
27. not knowing God (Jer 4:22)
28. being false prophets (Jer 50:36)
29. being equated with the wicked (1Sam 25:25)
30. at times for recognizing themselves as being great sinners (1Sam 26:21)
31. resentment or envy slaying them (Job 5:2)
31. denying the existence of God (Ps 14:1; 53:1)
32. their chattering that bring them to ruin (Prov 10:10,14)
33. the spreaders of slander (Prov 10:18)
34. finding pleasure in evil conduct (Prov 10:23)
35. choosing a way that seems right to them and ignoring good advice (Prov 12:15)
36. angering quickly (Prov 12:16; 20:3; 29:11)
37. exposing their own folly (Prov 13:16)
38. being hotheaded and reckless (Prov 14:16)
39. having mouths that gush folly (Prov 15:2)
40. having mouths that feed on folly (Prov 15:14)
41. spurning their father's discipline (Prov 15:5)
42. having no desire to get wisdom (Prov 17:16)
43. finding no pleasure in understanding (Prov 18:2)
44. delighting in airing their own opinions (Prov 18:2)
45. having perverse lips (Prov 19:1)
46. scorning the wisdom of wise words if the wise speak to them (Prov 23:9)
47. their proverbs being as useless as a lame man's legs hanging limp (Prov 26:7).
48. a dog that returns to its vomit when it repeats its folly (Prov 26:11)
49. their provocation which is heavier than stone and sand (Prov 27:3).
50. their great reluctance in removing their folly from themselves (Prov 27:22).
51. trusting in themselves (Prov 28:26)
52. raging and scoffing at the wise man with whom he goes to court (Prov 29:9)
53. playing the fool, exalting themselves or planning evil (Prov 30:32)
54. walking in the darkness (Eccl 2:14)
55. folding their hands and bringing ruin to themselves (Eccl 4:5)
56. their speech that pours out many words (Eccl 5:3)
57. lacking sense and showing everyone how stupid they are (Eccl 10:13)
58. being consumed by their own lips (Eccl 10:12)
59. multiplying their own words (Eccl 10:14)
60. speaking folly (Isa 32:6)
61. their minds being busy with evil (Isa 32:6)
62. practicing ungodliness and spreading error concerning the Lord (Isa 32:6)
63. leaving the hungry empty and withholding water from the thirsty (Isa 32:6)
64. [b ]gaining riches by unjust gains (Jer 17:11)[/b]
So, let me understand this: After being a professing Christian for many decades, you have never reached a solid conclusion in your mind who the fools or the ungodly are spiritually? I suppose, then, the same goes for the wise or godly? You just sort of jumbled both groups together in your head, shrugged your shoulders, rolled your eyes and said, generally, one group is no better or worse than the other? But I have you pretty well figured out already, so I have put together a little biblical list that speaks for itself in terms of how scripture generally characterizes fools. This probably won't satisfy you either, as I'm certain that now even though scripture contrasts the two groups you will still want me to "define" who or what the wise are, right?
I have taken the liberty of highlighting the more gross sins or evil proclivities of fools. Enjoy the read.
Fools are characterized as or known for:
1. being wicked (2Sam 13:13; Ps 94:3,8)
2. mockers of God (Ps 74:22)
3. not understanding their bleak eternal destiny (Ps 92:6)
4. being rebellious (Ps 107:17)
5. despising spiritual wisdom (Prov 1:7)
6. hating spiritual knowledge (Prov 1:22)
7. mockers delighting in mockiery (Prov 1:22)
8. being wayward and complacent (Prov 1:32)
9. being wicked and held up to shame by God (Prov 3:33,35)
10. dying for their lack of knowledge (Prov 10:21)
11. having hearts that blurt our folly (Prov 12:23)
12. detesting the thought to turn away from evil (Prov 13:19)
13. bringing harm to their companions (Prov 13:20)
14. folly in their heart that is deception (Prov 14:8)
15. mockers at making amends for their sins (Prov 14:9)
16. known for their folly that only yields folly (Prov 14:
17. not spreading true [spiritual] knowledge (Prov 15:7)
18. their folly that brings them punishment (Prov 16:22)
20. being ignorant of their wrong-doings (Eccl 5:1)
21. being unpleasing to God (Eccl 5:4)
22. having hearts that are in the house of pleasure (Eccl 7:4)
23. their laughter as being meaningless (Eccl 7:6)
24. their anger residing in their laps (Eccl 7:9)
25. thinking of themselves as wise counselors but only giving senseless advice (Ia 19:11)
26. not being willing to walk in the Way of Holiness (Isa 35:8)
27. not knowing God (Jer 4:22)
28. being false prophets (Jer 50:36)
29. being equated with the wicked (1Sam 25:25)
30. at times for recognizing themselves as being great sinners (1Sam 26:21)
31. resentment or envy slaying them (Job 5:2)
31. denying the existence of God (Ps 14:1; 53:1)
32. their chattering that bring them to ruin (Prov 10:10,14)
33. the spreaders of slander (Prov 10:18)
34. finding pleasure in evil conduct (Prov 10:23)
35. choosing a way that seems right to them and ignoring good advice (Prov 12:15)
36. angering quickly (Prov 12:16; 20:3; 29:11)
37. exposing their own folly (Prov 13:16)
38. being hotheaded and reckless (Prov 14:16)
39. having mouths that gush folly (Prov 15:2)
40. having mouths that feed on folly (Prov 15:14)
41. spurning their father's discipline (Prov 15:5)
42. having no desire to get wisdom (Prov 17:16)
43. finding no pleasure in understanding (Prov 18:2)
44. delighting in airing their own opinions (Prov 18:2)
45. having perverse lips (Prov 19:1)
46. scorning the wisdom of wise words if the wise speak to them (Prov 23:9)
47. their proverbs being as useless as a lame man's legs hanging limp (Prov 26:7).
48. a dog that returns to its vomit when it repeats its folly (Prov 26:11)
49. their provocation which is heavier than stone and sand (Prov 27:3).
50. their great reluctance in removing their folly from themselves (Prov 27:22).
51. trusting in themselves (Prov 28:26)
52. raging and scoffing at the wise man with whom he goes to court (Prov 29:9)
53. playing the fool, exalting themselves or planning evil (Prov 30:32)
54. walking in the darkness (Eccl 2:14)
55. folding their hands and bringing ruin to themselves (Eccl 4:5)
56. their speech that pours out many words (Eccl 5:3)
57. lacking sense and showing everyone how stupid they are (Eccl 10:13)
58. being consumed by their own lips (Eccl 10:12)
59. multiplying their own words (Eccl 10:14)
60. speaking folly (Isa 32:6)
61. their minds being busy with evil (Isa 32:6)
62. practicing ungodliness and spreading error concerning the Lord (Isa 32:6)
63. leaving the hungry empty and withholding water from the thirsty (Isa 32:6)
64. [b ]gaining riches by unjust gains (Jer 17:11)[/b]
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