Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[SimpleGardner]

It's not that God won't, or can't complete the work He started in you!
It's that y'all don't "see", or can't "see", "WORK?" Is a "two-way" street!
YOU? HAVE to help in this!
Overcoming? It's NOT a "gift!"
It's REQUIRES "WORK!"
I am reminded so many times when reading the posts from y'all OSAS people fo what God sez in Ezekiel 13!

It is that simple! Thanks NayborBear!

I have read that some people have actually torn the book of James out of their Bibles they are so put off by it!

Truthfully if you look at the definition of FAITH, it is the evidence that someones trust and belief in God is real since it manifests that beleif in OBEDIENCE! Faith is the plain to see WORKS which an obedient heart manifests.

FAITH is WORKS that result from BELEIF in things unseen (God, His Majesty, and His Righteous Requirements!) Brought into existence by Humble OBEDIENCE.

Jas 2:14-26 NIV What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? (15) Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. (16) If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? (17) In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (18) But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. (19) You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. (20) You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? (21) Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (22) You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (23) And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. (24) You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (25) In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? (26) As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Grandpa]

The question is not "Are the 10 commandments good".

The 10 commandments are good, but YOU are not.

The 10 commandments will ALWAYS show your sin. And in so doing show your death and condemnation.


So there is a solution for this that GOD has made for us. Instead of working at the 10 commandments and pretending to each other that this work makes you righteous before God, God has made a way for REAL Righteousness through Him.

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


I suppose for people who are adamant that it is their own work and understanding at the 10 commandments that makes them righteous they CAN'T see this simplicity that is in scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Does any of this make void the intent of the 10 commandments? No.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

It is our faith in Christ that establishes the intent of the 10 commandments, NOT our work and understanding of them.

 

[posthuman]

Greetings PH,

We have had discussions explainaing the seeming contradiction between what you cited and what I cited. Do you remember the discussion?

Remember this scenario is the same today where God made available all that was/is necessary to fulfill His commandments, but both Israel and Many today, have failed to "enter in" by "standing afar off".

Don't you think it would be better to provide the scriptural answer for the seeming contradiction you posted? Leaving it may cause young believers to lose faith in the Word of God, and I know you don't want that.

i don't know why you think it is a contradiction.

God knew they would not keep the law. this doesn't contradict the fact that it was within their power to. Genesis 1 through Exodus 19 had already foreshadowed that fact over and over and over by the time we get to Exodus 20.

and it is explained, readily:

Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.​

(Romans 7:7)​

​

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you, for God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.​

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!​

How unsearchable His judgments,​

and his paths beyond tracing out!​

Who has known the mind of the Lord?​

Or who has been His counselor?​

Who has ever given to God,​

that God should repay them?​

For from Him and through Him and for Him are all things:​

to Him be the glory forever!​

Amen.​

(Romans 11:30-36)​

​

​

did you not read Romans yet?
i hoped that everyone involved in this thread should have read it several times before they post any more.

 

[SimpleGardner]

The question is not "Are the 10 commandments good".

The 10 commandments are good, but YOU are not.

The 10 commandments will ALWAYS show your sin. And in so doing show your death and condemnation.


So there is a solution for this that GOD has made for us. Instead of working at the 10 commandments and pretending to each other that this work makes you righteous before God, God has made a way for REAL Righteousness through Him.

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


I suppose for people who are adamant that it is their own work and understanding at the 10 commandments that makes them righteous they CAN'T see this simplicity that is in scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Does any of this make void the intent of the 10 commandments? No.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

It is our faith in Christ that establishes the intent of the 10 commandments, NOT our work and understanding of them.

Let me translate between the lines what many who talk like the words above;

Don't try to keep Gods commandments or you will hurt yourself! "Surely He didn't say!"

Hey fellow believer, God has filled your heart to love and appreciate His commandments to bring you back into fellowship with Him through obedience! The adversary spoke in the same manner when he wanted to separate Gods man and woman in the garden from fellowship with God through disobedience!

Dress it up any way you want, God wants obedience, the adversary wants disobedience!

Why? Because as long as man has fellowship with God through obedience, the adversary loses his power! The obedience must come through the infilling of the Holy Spirit who creates a "New Heart" with which to Love/Obey God!

Bless our Heavenly Father, Know and Keep! Jn 14:21

 

[SimpleGardner]

i don't know why you think it is a contradiction.

God knew they would not keep the law. this doesn't contradict the fact that it was within their power to. Genesis 1 through Exodus 19 had already foreshadowed that fact over and over and over by the time we get to Exodus 20.

and it is explained, readily:

Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.​

(Romans 7:7)​

​

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you, for God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.​

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!​

How unsearchable His judgments,​

and his paths beyond tracing out!​

Who has known the mind of the Lord?​

Or who has been His counselor?​

Who has ever given to God,​

that God should repay them?​

For from Him and through Him and for Him are all things:​

to Him be the glory forever!​

Amen.​

(Romans 11:30-36)​

​

​

did you not read Romans yet?
i hoped that everyone involved in this thread should have read it several times before they post any more.

He knew they would have kept the Laws had they received the Holy Spirit of God that would keep them from sinning!

But they "stood afar off" Did not receive the Holy Spirit of God. Ex Ch 20

Same as today, men rebel, predictably, against the commandments of God if they have not received the Holy Spirit and they embrace and treasure, predictably, the commandments of God when they have received the Holy Spirit!

All any man has to do is listen to a mans position on "obedience" to Gods Laws to determine his relationship with the Holy Spirit, if you accept the Holy Scriptures declarations on the matter.

 

[posthuman]

So there is a solution for this that GOD has made for us. Instead of working at the 10 commandments and pretending to each other that this work makes you righteous before God, God has made a way for REAL Righteousness through Him.

Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

see,

why don't they read Romans? it's all right there. the answer to all these circular arguments for hundreds of pages.

& SG doesn't even reply with scripture, but the same false strawman, claiming you're saying 'disobey the decalogue!' tho you are saying no such thing.

 

[PS]

All I can say is that those Ten Commandment that were carved on tablets of stone are now indelibly inscribed on my heart.

 

[posthuman]

But they "stood afar off" Did not receive the Holy Spirit of God. Ex Ch 20

previously covered, SG.
previously debunked.
i'll remind you:

Exodus 16: testing them with manna and the first sabbath, 'to see if they will keep my commandments' -- they fail. it is proven, a testimony against them before the giving of the law.

Numbers 11: the 70 elders who met with God without a mediator received the Spirit and prophesied but did not do so again. Eldad and Medad were not among them, and only heard from God through Moses the mediator, but the Spirit entered them and they prophesied continually.

1 Timothy 2:5 - Jesus Christ is THE MEDIATOR -- it is not 'evil' as you claim for a mediator to exist between God and man, and it does not prevent one from receiving the Spirit of God, in fact it enables it - because the Son of Man is the One who sends the Spirit ((John 14:6)) who is HIMSELF a mediator ((John 14:26 & John 16:15))

God placed Moses on a place near Him on a Rock and then when His glory passed by God moved Moses and hid Moses in the Cleft of the Rock -- this preserved Moses because no one can see His face and live.

now please go read Romans .. ?

 

[posthuman]

Same as today, men rebel, predictably, against the commandments of God if they have not received the Holy Spirit and they embrace and treasure, predictably, the commandments of God when they have received the Holy Spirit!

All any man has to do is listen to a mans position on "obedience" to Gods Laws to determine his relationship with the Holy Spirit, if you accept the Holy Scriptures declarations on the matter.

please stop repeating the same fallacious strawman, and read please Romans. please study Romans. please pray to God through your Mediator the man Jesus Christ for wisdom regarding Romans. please understand Romans.
we are not saying 'let us do evil so that good may result' -- we are saying, praise God, He is Salvation!

Do you not know, brothers and sisters — for I am speaking to those who know the law — that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.​

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.​

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.​

Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.​

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do — this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature d a slave to the law of sin.​

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.​

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.​

(Romans 7:1-8:11)​

 

[SimpleGardner]

Exodus 16: testing them with manna and the first sabbath, 'to see if they will keep my commandments' -- they fail. it is proven, a testimony against them before the giving of the law.

Correction, before given the Holy Spirit of God! powerless without it. Same topic.

Don't allow yourself to be beguiles by ignoring the work of the Holy Spirit and why they did not succeed in keeping their commitment. You are showing a pattern.

 

[posthuman]

You are showing a pattern.

here is a pattern:

please read Romans. ​

 

[SimpleGardner]

please stop repeating the same fallacious strawman, and read please Romans. please study Romans. please pray to God through your Mediator the man Jesus Christ for wisdom regarding Romans. please understand Romans.
we are not saying 'let us do evil so that good may result' -- we are saying, praise God, He is Salvation!

Do you not know, brothers and sisters — for I am speaking to those who know the law — that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.​

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.​

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.​

Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.​

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do — this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature d a slave to the law of sin.​

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.​

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.​

(Romans 7:1-8:11)​

I wish you could see it. When you read it with a conclusion looking for what supports your conclusion you leave out the best part! The Law is Just and Good to the Spiritual man, but the law is death and condemning to the carnal man. When we are "In Christ Jesus" have the Holy Spirit we "delight in Gods Law" just as you cited.

The key is to be "in Christ" where the Old man is superseded by the inner man so that our minds set on what the Spirit desires.

I pray you will see the transition that you will need to make from death to life.

 

[gb9]

I wish you could see it. When you read it with a conclusion looking for what supports your conclusion you leave out the best part! The Law is Just and Good to the Spiritual man, but the law is death and condemning to the carnal man. When we are "In Christ Jesus" have the Holy Spirit we "delight in Gods Law" just as you cited.

The key is to be "in Christ" where the Old man is superseded by the inner man so that our minds set on what the Spirit desires.

I pray you will see the transition that you will need to make from death to life.

I know you did not say this to myself, but I am going to say something here, hope posthuman does not mind.

and, I say this to all you judeaizers-

we DO see what you are saying. myself, eternally grateful, grandpa, post, we have been over and over this theology you guys are pushing, have covered all your talking points, we have been through the conversations with many who have came and gone over the years who push some version of Hebrew roots, ( none of you will admit it, but that is all you push, just different versions of the same thing, Hebrew roots.)

so, we do see what you are saying, we see it is wrong, we see all the contradictions in it, all the Scripture you twist, turn, or just outright deny and/or ignore.

so, we do see " It" we see " it" for what it is. a theology built with the Bible as a base, but a theology that denies Biblical truth.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I know you did not say this to myself, but I am going to say something here, hope posthuman does not mind.

and, I say this to all you judeaizers-

we DO see what you are saying. myself, eternally grateful, grandpa, post, we have been over and over this theology you guys are pushing, have covered all your talking points, we have been through the conversations with many who have came and gone over the years who push some version of Hebrew roots, ( none of you will admit it, but that is all you push, just different versions of the same thing, Hebrew roots.)

so, we do see what you are saying, we see it is wrong, we see all the contradictions in it, all the Scripture you twist, turn, or just outright deny and/or ignore.

so, we do see " It" we see " it" for what it is. a theology built with the Bible as a base, but a theology that denies Biblical truth.

I appreciate your candor and civil tone. We too hear what you are saying. I was raised in churches that did not push the Law, in fact they discouraged any consideration of it. But after receiving the anointing of the Holy Spirit I was driven into the Scriptures OT & NT and I literally was drinking in all of it! I literally fell in love with the order and Spirit of the OT Laws! Overjoyed with the sensibility and loveliness of it all. So time kept passing and I kept diggin into the scriptures and slowly the NT and the OT began to merge together. They complimented one another perfectly. As I heard more on Grace I recognized the Grace of God, always had, but when Grace doctrine tried to surpass and replace the beauty of His commands, I considered it from every angle I could being careful not to miss anything, but there was no way to bring that doctrine into full agreement with the Holy Spirit that led and Leads my studies. I have been through the considerations of the conflicts in this matter more times that I care to count, but the Spirit of Truth returns me to the scripture where all thing must meet their approval. The all Grace doctrine does not, the Justification through Grace and Sanctification through The Holy Spirit does. I am always left with the only conclusion I can arrive at and that is "they cannot be hearing the Holy Spirit as He clarifies the Scriptures"

There are so many errors out there today that can shipwreck a mans "Faith" which again I recognize as the bringing to gother of "belief" and "obedience" to produce "actionable works". The actionable works are actual "substance" real, tangiable, seeable manifestations as evidence of a mans beliefs and Obedience. This is the essence of the Law, beyond words and thoughts faith is true life "doing it!" Just as James said;


Jas 1:27 NIV Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Real works.

I hope you at least have some suspicions that a theological position that is contrary to the will of God that is good and Just and Holy is eerily similar to what Nacash promoted to beguile Eve. Eerily similar.

Can the adversary bring persistent peace and joy and fellowship with Yahshua and the Heavenly Father? No, But this is what I have experienced for years.

But i will add this, it does not manifest itself in worldly goods, and ease and worldly joys, just the opposite, I am being crowded to Christ which has nothing to do with the things of this world except in the divesting of and from them. This is a deal breaker for most as they use "increased with goods" and "ease" to measure success in their religion.

Sincerely

SG

 

[Whispered]

Thank you I want to ask you about this part, though:

When Jesus did not say the law was abolished but that he had fulfilled it,
it meant he fulfilled the laws of Moses so as to make them null and void.
Jesus ministry went on to reiterate, re-state, the ten laws of our Father
as still in effect when he was asked what laws matter still.

Do we argue now our Savior was wrong? And those against that teaching are right?

What I wonder is, where did Jesus command us to keep the Sabbath?

I would refer you to the Book of Mark chapter 2. All of it so as to gain the full measure of the message. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Our precious Savior is Lord of the Sabbath. Think on that phrase; "LORD of the Sabbath". He established His day of rest in the beginning after his labors in creation. Then He told us to remember that and keep that day of rest as holy for ourselves and in rest with our great God.
The Lord of the Sabbath
(1 Samuel 21:1-9; Matthew 12:1-8; Luke 6:1-5)

23And it came to pass, He is passing through the grainfields on the Sabbaths, and His disciples began to make their way, plucking the heads of grain. 24And the Pharisees were saying to Him, “Behold, why do they that which is unlawful on the Sabbaths?”

25And He said to them, “Did you never read what David did when he had need, and he and those with him hungered— 26how he entered into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the loaves of the presentation, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests—and he even gave to those being with him?”

27And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made on account of the man, and not the man on account of the Sabbath. 28So then, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”


Jesus death on the cross insured those edits of Moses law were nailed to the cross. Therefore, as Jesus demonstrated prior to the cross, working on the Sabbath was not worthy of death. Jesus worked on the Sabbath healing people, walking about delivering his ministry. And after he returned to the right hand of the Father, the apostles also kept the Sabbath and Christ exampled and intended. Were Jesus to have done away with the Sabbath would his students who followed him, supped with him, slept with him in their midst, have honored it? Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

Now, I would ask you, where did Jesus tell us the Sabbath no longer was to be kept?
And how would it be wrong to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy today and especially in these dark times?

 

[Marcelo]

Marcelo said: My friend was a by-the-book-Christian. He studied the Bible just like lawyers study a civil code, and this is putting the cart ahead of the ox. Christians must be primarily guided by the Holy Spirit and secondly by Scripture.

Were you able to share your insights with him? I have known a few people to be led by guilt or desire for the praise of men, but if not called by the lead of the Holy Spirit that is one storm that will be hard to weather.

My friend gave away almost everything he had because he wanted "to follow Jesus". But he attempted to follow the wrong Jesus. We are to follow the resurrected Christ who spoke to us through Paul, not the earthly Jesus who preached the ultimate version of the Law of Moses to the Jews.

In the company where we worked many co-workers became very interested in the Bible and were already attending services as a result of our conversion, but when my friend pointed out to them that it was very hard "to follow Jesus" (sell all you have and give the money ...) ALL of them turned away from the faith.

That's why we must teach the exact truth about the Christian doctrine, not plus or minus anything. Salvation is not as hard as a camel going through the eye of a needle, but we can't receive it hands down, either. Salvation, according to the resurrected Christ (Paul's teachings), is absolutely feasible and God wants all of us to be saved.

 

[Magenta]

I would refer you to the Book of Mark chapter 2. All of it so as to gain the full measure of the message. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Our precious Savior is Lord of the Sabbath. Think on that phrase; "LORD of the Sabbath". He established His day of rest in the beginning after his labors in creation. Then He told us to remember that and keep that day of rest as holy for ourselves and in rest with our great God.
The Lord of the Sabbath
(1 Samuel 21:1-9; Matthew 12:1-8; Luke 6:1-5)

23And it came to pass, He is passing through the grainfields on the Sabbaths, and His disciples began to make their way, plucking the heads of grain. 24And the Pharisees were saying to Him, “Behold, why do they that which is unlawful on the Sabbaths?”

25And He said to them, “Did you never read what David did when he had need, and he and those with him hungered— 26how he entered into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the loaves of the presentation, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests—and he even gave to those being with him?”

27And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made on account of the man, and not the man on account of the Sabbath. 28So then, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Jesus death on the cross insured those edits of Moses law were nailed to the cross. Therefore, as Jesus demonstrated prior to the cross, working on the Sabbath was not worthy of death. Jesus worked on the Sabbath healing people, walking about delivering his ministry. And after he returned to the right hand of the Father, the apostles also kept the Sabbath and Christ exampled and intended. Were Jesus to have done away with the Sabbath would his students who followed him, supped with him, slept with him in their midst, have honored it? Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

Now, I would ask you, where did Jesus tell us the Sabbath no longer was to be kept?
And how would it be wrong to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy today and especially in these dark times?

I just read Mark 2, and saw no command to keep the Sabbath, quite the contrary, as Jesus was accused of breaking it. I understand Jesus to be our Sabbath rest. Rest from the works of the law, for we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Romans 4:15a
because the Law brings wrath.

Romans 5:20
The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

PS~ I am not at all arguing against the other nine

 

[Yahshua]

I appreciate your candor and civil tone. We too hear what you are saying. I was raised in churches that did not push the Law, in fact they discouraged any consideration of it. But after receiving the anointing of the Holy Spirit I was driven into the Scriptures OT & NT and I literally was drinking in all of it! I literally fell in love with the order and Spirit of the OT Laws! Overjoyed with the sensibility and loveliness of it all. So time kept passing and I kept diggin into the scriptures and slowly the NT and the OT began to merge together. They complimented one another perfectly. As I heard more on Grace I recognized the Grace of God, always had, but when Grace doctrine tried to surpass and replace the beauty of His commands, I considered it from every angle I could being careful not to miss anything, but there was no way to bring that doctrine into full agreement with the Holy Spirit that led and Leads my studies. I have been through the considerations of the conflicts in this matter more times that I care to count, but the Spirit of Truth returns me to the scripture where all thing must meet their approval. The all Grace doctrine does not, the Justification through Grace and Sanctification through The Holy Spirit does. I am always left with the only conclusion I can arrive at and that is "they cannot be hearing the Holy Spirit as He clarifies the Scriptures"

There are so many errors out there today that can shipwreck a mans "Faith" which again I recognize as the bringing to gother of "belief" and "obedience" to produce "actionable works". The actionable works are actual "substance" real, tangiable, seeable manifestations as evidence of a mans beliefs and Obedience. This is the essence of the Law, beyond words and thoughts faith is true life "doing it!" Just as James said;


Jas 1:27 NIV Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Real works.

I hope you at least have some suspicions that a theological position that is contrary to the will of God that is good and Just and Holy is eerily similar to what Nacash promoted to beguile Eve. Eerily similar.

Can the adversary bring persistent peace and joy and fellowship with Yahshua and the Heavenly Father? No, But this is what I have experienced for years.

But i will add this, it does not manifest itself in worldly goods, and ease and worldly joys, just the opposite, I am being crowded to Christ which has nothing to do with the things of this world except in the divesting of and from them. This is a deal breaker for most as they use "increased with goods" and "ease" to measure success in their religion.

Sincerely

SG

Excellent. I was going to ask GB who he thought the judaizers were that he was talking to lol.

Your post has been my experience too SG. The only way I could continue to accept the "grace only, do nothing" doctrine was by NOT studying the scriptures. Every time I did it conflicted with the "do nothing" doctrine at every turn more and more. I especially had to stop reading Christ's words if I was supposed to "do nothing".

For instance, recall the parable of the talents. First, Christ parables usually begin with "the kingdom of heaven is like...", so right there it tells me this is upon His return (i.e. second coming).

As I remember the parable, the king GIFTED three people with treasure.

...so they initially did NOTHING to earn their gift. This is critical.

Then, after receipt of the gift, two of the three servants WORKED their gift; USED the gift, took action and made it grow.

...but one servant, afraid to LOSE the gift they were given, DID NOTHING with it. He literally buried it.

When the king returned he rewarded the two servants who worked their gift, but took away the gift from the one who did nothing with it, and did so in anger.

The gift was exactly the same quantity as when the king gave it before returning. No growth.

---

Grace is called a gift from the living God. It's quite possibly the most valuable gift we can receive prior to our immortal bodies. More valuable than gold. And it was given to us while the king is away.

We did NOTHING to earn this gift, and could do nothing.

...And all throughout the "NT" letters believers are encouraged to GROW their grace and knowledge of Christ.

"May you grow in grace."

"Grow in grace."

Very very similar to the talent of gold represented in the parable.

So I had a doctrine telling me to do nothing with this gift for fear of losing it, while Christ and the apostles teach believers to put forth effort and grow this gift.


In the end I had to forsake the "do nothing" doctrine and then commit to understanding how to grow the gift.

I don't want to be known as a wicked, lazy servant.

 

[Grandpa]

see,

why don't they read Romans? it's all right there. the answer to all these circular arguments for hundreds of pages.

& SG doesn't even reply with scripture, but the same false strawman, claiming you're saying 'disobey the decalogue!' tho you are saying no such thing.

I think its because very few people understand the Power of Grace.

But everyone understands working at the law.

 

[Grandpa]

Excellent. I was going to ask GB who he thought the judaizers were that he was talking to lol.

Your post has been my experience too SG. The only way I could continue to accept the "grace only, do nothing" doctrine was by NOT studying the scriptures. Every time I did it conflicted with the "do nothing" doctrine at every turn more and more. I especially had to stop reading Christ's words if I was supposed to "do nothing".

For instance, recall the parable of the talents. First, Christ parables usually begin with "the kingdom of heaven is like...", so right there it tells me this is upon His return (i.e. second coming).

As I remember the parable, the king GIFTED three people with treasure.

...so they initially did NOTHING to earn their gift. This is critical.

Then, after receipt of the gift, two of the three servants WORKED their gift; USED the gift, took action and made it grow.

...but one servant, afraid to LOSE the gift they were given, DID NOTHING with it. He literally buried it.

When the king returned he rewarded the two servants who worked their gift, but took away the gift from the one who did nothing with it, and did so in anger.

The gift was exactly the same quantity as when the king gave it before returning. No growth.

---

Grace is called a gift from the living God. It's quite possibly the most valuable gift we can receive prior to our immortal bodies. More valuable than gold. And it was given to us while the king is away.

We did NOTHING to earn this gift, and could do nothing.

...And all throughout the "NT" letters believers are encouraged to GROW their grace and knowledge of Christ.

"May you grow in grace."

"Grow in grace."

Very very similar to the talent of gold represented in the parable.

So I had a doctrine telling me to do nothing with this gift for fear of losing it, while Christ and the apostles teach believers to put forth effort and grow this gift.


In the end I had to forsake the "do nothing" doctrine and then commit to understanding how to grow the gift.

I don't want to be known as a wicked, lazy servant.

Would you think that it was a mockery of what Christ has done if a person taught that animal sacrifice was necessary for Christians?

Would you think it was a mockery of what Christ has done if a person taught that the Jewish festivals are necessary for Christians, as if they weren't fulfilled?

If you can understand that possibly it is a mockery of what Christ has done for others to teach that what Christ has fulfilled He didn't really fulfill but instead the Christian must work at it and do it then you should be able to grasp what is happening here.

Those who teach Christians to go back and work at the law are contradicting Christ and the epistles of the New Testament. This is a mockery of what Christ has done and what Christianity is.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I think that sharing what this treasure is that is inside us and has been given to us as His Gift is a good idea. Its just too bad when people reject it and would rather turn away from it and continue to try and earn their way in through their own works instead of by faith in Christ. Its too bad when people contradict Christ and Paul and decide to go back to the yoke of bondage telling others that's what Christians are supposed to do.

This was all hashed out 2000 yrs ago in Acts 15 then over and over again in all the Epistles.

Here's the synopsis;
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Romans 8:1 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.