Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Whispered]

it's funny to me that you guys love the O.T. so much, yet you hate the Romans because you claim they invented the Trinity ( they did not , Jesus did), they outlawed Sabbath keeping ( that was wrong, should not have been done), left out other letters, etc,

these same romans who did these things also attached what they called the jewish writings to the letters and the Gospels.

double minded much?

How do you explain God in the Old Testament affirming there is only one? And multiple times?

 

[Grandpa]

...surely you don't expected me to defend myself against what someone claims an imaginary person said? Let's let that imaginary person defend their own statements if they can.

But as you know, I'll happily explain anything I said though, just let me know what that is and I'll address it. Feel free to direct me to the post. No problem.

That wasn't the point.

You were saying it was a straw man that was destroyed.

I was showing that maybe if you didn't say the EXACT words your meaning was pretty plain. So maybe it wasn't a straw man but the intent of your words.

Or was it just your intent to fan the flames? (see what I did there?)

 

[gb9]

How do you explain God in the Old Testament affirming there is only one? And multiple times?

John said the Commands were to believe in the name of the Son and love one another, so if you have an issue with what John said the Commands were, ( or why he did NOT say Torah or Sabbath), then you will have to address that issue with John. I think we should believe Him, but if choose to say John the Beloved was in error. then I will not be joining you in that.

now, Jesus Himself confirmed the truth of Trinity when He said " I ( 1 ) will pray the father ( 2 ), and He will send the Comforter ( 3)"

so, there you go. did Jesus say " I will pray to Me and send Me back?" no, that would be silly. just as silly as saying that Christians have to turn jewish to be Christ followers.

so, judeaizer, you and the other deceitful liars can push Hebrew roots all you want, I will happily dismantle it. I have done it many times to many judeaizers over the years, you guys are nothing new, nothing special .

 

[Whispered]

John said the Commands were to believe in the name of the Son and love one another, so if you have an issue with what John said the Commands were, ( or why he did NOT say Torah or Sabbath), then you will have to address that issue with John. I think we should believe Him, but if choose to say John the Beloved was in error. then I will not be joining you in that.

now, Jesus Himself confirmed the truth of Trinity when He said " I ( 1 ) will pray the father ( 2 ), and He will send the Comforter ( 3)"

so, there you go. did Jesus say " I will pray to Me and send Me back?" no, that would be silly. just as silly as saying that Christians have to turn jewish to be Christ followers.

so, judeaizer, you and the other deceitful liars can push Hebrew roots all you want, I will happily dismantle it. I have done it many times to many judeaizers over the years, you guys are nothing new, nothing special .

You should cleanse your heart of hatred before claiming to know the Son of God.
Now if you could answer the question I actually posed to you.

Are you a follower of Replacement Theology?

 

[Grandpa]

You should cleanse your heart of hatred before claiming to know the Son of God.
Now if you could answer the question I actually posed to you.

Are you a follower of Replacement Theology?

Aren't all Christians, who consider themselves Children of God, followers of "Replacement" Theology?

Although Replacement is kind of a misnomer. There is only one way to become a Child of God.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Whispered]

I think it necessary at this point after reading numerous charges of "Judaizer" directed toward Christian sisters and brothers here to clear something up.
If you are accused of being a so called Judaizer do not take offense. I suggest you pray for that one that labels you such because you study differently than they do and understand what Jesus said about the law. Not one jot nor tittle shall be removed from the law until all is accomplished. The law was divided into four parts as we learn from reading the Old Testament.

The Rabbinic Law was written by the Rabbis as their interpretation of the ten commandments, and the punishments for violating those as well. They also incorporated into Rabbinic law the civic law that governed the community of the Jews, and the Ceremonial law , which pertained to sin sacrifice and the like. This is how what is referred to as the Mitzvoh came about. It is a total of 613 laws in all.

The ceremonial law was nailed to the cross as we know. The civic law pertained to the community of the Jews and is not particular to Gentiles. The moral law, the ten commands, preceded mount Sinai and as we learned in our reading of the New Testament are still applicable. Because Jesus said so. As did Paul. As did the Apostles in their teachings.

Especially I should note the Sabbath remains holy because as Jesus tells us, the Sabbath was made for us. We were not created for the Sabbath. Ask yourself if you encounter opposition, especially opposition that seeks to offend with name calling toward you, why would anyone become so enraged at the idea of one day set aside to rest from the labors of this world and spend time in The Word?

Consider there is Sunday worship many of us participate in by going to church. That is spending time in The Word. Why would anyone then be opposed to a full day of rest that God established in the beginning? And that has not been abolished by Christ himself. Even the Disciples honored Sabbath. Are we better now than they?

I may be new to this community however, it is not necessary to be long lived here to notice a level of hostility that erupts from time to time in the accusation made toward some of us as that of , Judaizer. We could even say it is racist since the Jews are both a race of peoples and a faith in God.

In the event you encounter such hatred, some expressed with greater animus than from others, consider reading this information so as to shield yourself in the truth and from the assault that is intended. Consider also if you will the last part of the definition article below.
As you read a characteristic of the Judaizer's in Paul's time as bearing the attribute and profering the teaching concerning circumcision. And wonder perhaps if that one levying the charge of Judaizer in any forum you may be a member of is a circumcised Christian male charging someone on a forum like this with the name, Judaizer.

Why would anyone think hate is a characteristic of the path of righteousness in Christ? A good question, would you agree?
Stay in the peace of Christ, always. Even when those around you are flailing in their rage and imbalance. All things are according to plan. God is the master. May God bless and keep you all , all of your days.

Judaizers Baker's Evangelical Dictionary
Those who adopted Jewish religious practices or sought to influence others to do so. The Greek verb ioudaizo [Ioudai?zw] ("to judaize") appears only once in the Septuagint ( Esther8:17 ) and once in the New Testament ( Gal 2:14 ). In the Septuagint this verb is used in relation to the Gentiles in Persia who adopted Jewish practices in order to avoid the consequences of Esther's decree ( Esther 8:13 ), which permitted Jews to avenge the wrongs committed against them. The Septuagint not only uses ioudaizo[Ioudai?zw]to translate the Hebrew mityahadim ("to become a Jew"), but adds that these Gentiles were circumcised.

In Galatians 2:14 it means to "live like Jews" (RSV, neb, NASB, Phillips),"follow Jewish customs" (NIV), or "live by the Jewish law"(Barclay). The context for this reference is the episode in Antioch when Paul condemns Peter's withdrawal from table fellowship with Gentile Christians. Peter's actions a reviewed by Paul as a serious compromise of the gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone, lending support to the position that sought to impose Jewish ceremonial law on the Gentiles. Thus, Paul interprets Peter's withdrawal in terms of its effect in compelling Gentile Christians to live like Jews.

The term "Judaizer" has come to be used in theological parlance to describe the opponents of Paul and Barnabas at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) and those who sought to preach "another gospel" in the churches of Galatia ( Galatians 2:4 Galatians 2:12 ; 6:12 ; cf. Php 3:2 ). In this sense, "Judaizers" refers to Jewish Christians who sought to induce Gentiles to observe Jewish religious customs: to "judaize." It appears that these individuals agreed with much of the apostolic kerygma but sought to regulate the admission of Gentiles into the covenant people of God through circumcision and the keeping of the ceremonial law. Insisting that "Unless you are circumcised … you cannot be saved" ( Acts15:1 ), these "believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees" ( Acts 15:5 ) posed a serious threat to the gospel of grace and the uNIVersality of the Christian mission.

Paul's Galatian epistle portrays the Judaizers as having come from the Jerusalem church to his churches in Galatia, stressing the need for Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law, both for full acceptance by God (legalism) and as the basis for Christian living (nomism[novmisma]).They understood keeping the law not only as the means by which the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant could be appropriated, but also as the regulative guide for Christian life within that covenant relationship. Although the Judaizers appear to be concerned with bringing the Galatian Christians to perfection through the observance of the law, Paul charges them with being motivated by a desire to avoid persecution ( Gal 6:12-13 ).Amidst the rising pressures of Jewish nationalism in Palestine during the mid-first century, and increased Zealot animosity against any Jew who had Gentile sympathies, it would appear that these Jewish Christians embarked on a judaizing mission among Paul's converts in order to prevent Zealot persecution of the Palestinian church.

R. David Rightmire​

See also Galatians, Theology of; James, Theology of; Paul the Apostle; Pharisees
Bibliography. F. F. Bruce, Galatians; J. Dunn, Unity and Diversity in the New Testament; R. Fung, Galatians; W. Gutbrod, TDNT, 3:383; R. Jewett, New Testament Studies; R. Longenecker, Galatians.


Were the Ten Commandments in Effect Before Mount Sinai?

 

[Whispered]

Aren't all Christians, who consider themselves Children of God, followers of "Replacement" Theology?

Although Replacement is kind of a misnomer. There is only one way to become a Child of God.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Would you please in your own words define for me what you believe Supersessionism , or , Replacement Theology, is?

 

[posthuman]

"grace only, do nothing" doctrine

strawman.

The Rabbinic Law was written by the Rabbis as their interpretation of the ten commandments, and the punishments for violating those as well. They also incorporated into Rabbinic law the civic law that governed the community of the Jews, and the Ceremonial law , which pertained to sin sacrifice and the like. This is how what is referred to as the Mitzvoh came about. It is a total of 613 laws in all.

just to clarify, in case it is misunderstood:
the 613 mitzvoh are all recorded in scripture having been given directly from God through Moses. they are not rabbi-originated. they are the subject of an huge amount of rabbinic interpretation and thought in what is called the talmud, which is not scripture, but more or less falls under the category of 'commentary.' the mitzvoh are scripture; the talmud is not the mitzvoh and the talmud is not scripture.

The ceremonial law was nailed to the cross as we know. The civic law pertained to the community of the Jews and is not particular to Gentiles. The moral law, the ten commands, preceded mount Sinai and as we learned in our reading of the New Testament are still applicable. Because Jesus said so. As did Paul. As did the Apostles in their teachings.

also an important point to clarify:
no where in scripture is 'the law' ever spoken of as being segmented, compartmentalized, or in any other way whatsoever divided into 'parts' as it is being characterized here. Moses, James, Paul & Jesus all refer to the law ubiquitously as a single, unified whole. one law: the law of the Sinai covenant.
references: Deuteronomy 6:20-25, James 2:10, Galatians 5:3, Matthew 5:18-19 "not one jot or tittle"

 

[Whispered]

strawman.



just to clarify, in case it is misunderstood:
the 613 mitzvoh are all recorded in scripture having been given directly from God through Moses. they are not rabbi-originated. they are the subject of an huge amount of rabbinic interpretation and thought in what is called the talmud, which is not scripture, but more or less falls under the category of 'commentary.' the mitzvoh are scripture; the talmud is not the mitzvoh and the talmud is not scripture.



also an important point to clarify:
no where in scripture is 'the law' ever spoken of as being segmented, compartmentalized, or in any other way whatsoever divided into 'parts' as it is being characterized here. Moses, James, Paul & Jesus all refer to the law ubiquitously as a single, unified whole. one law: the law of the Sinai covenant.
references: Deuteronomy 6:20-25, James 2:10, Galatians 5:3, Matthew 5:18-19 "not one jot or tittle"

This will help clear things up I think. It is my prayer that this is so. And also as a point of clarification, in my post I never said the Bible stated the Mitzvah are divided into four segments. It is a matter of history within the Mitzvah that they are so. Further, the statement I made concerning Rabbis is accurate as the article below will show. If clarity is the purpose then it is dishonest to misrepresent by implication what I stated. I never said the Rabbis created the law. To claim so is a falsehood. And not fair to the truth of my post.

What Is a Mitzvah?

Origins
The first appearance of the word mitzvah is in Genesis 26:4-5 when God is speaking to Isaac about staying put despite the famine that was plaguing the land.

"And I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I will give your seed all these lands, and all the nations of the earth will bless themselves by your seed, because Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments (mitzvot), My statutes, and My instructions."​

The term mitzvah goes on to appear more than 180 more times throughout the Hebrew Bible, or Torah, frequently in reference to the commands that God gave to individuals or the greater Israelite nation.

The 613 Commandments
The concept of the 613 mitzvot, although it is not explicitly mentioned in the Torah itself, arose in the 3rd Century CE in the Talmud, Tractate Makkoth 23b,

The 365 negative commandments correspond to the number of days in the solar year, and the 248 positive commandments correspond to the individual's limbs.​

If you've heard someone discuss a good deed or nice thing someone did or was considering doing and heard someone say, "It's a mitzvah," this isn't exactly the correct usage of the term. Although there's a high likelihood the deed they were discussing could fit nicely into one of the 613 mitzvot or commandments found in the Torah, it's a colloquial use of the term.

Interestingly, this common use of the term mitzvah to refer to any type of good deed is quite old, having originated in the Jerusalem Talmud in which any charitable act was referred to as ha'mitzvah, or "the mitzvah."

The Rabbis' Commandments
Beyond the 613 mitzvot from the Torah, there are mitzvot d'rabbanan (דרבנן‎), or commandments from the rabbis. Essentially, the 613 commandments are known as mitzvot d'oraita (דאורייתא), which the rabbis understood to be strictly mandated by the Bible. Mitzvot d'rabbanan are additional legal requirements that were mandated by the rabbis.

A good example here is that the Torah tells us not to work on the Sabbath, which is a mitzvah d'oraita. Then there is the mitzvah d'rabbanan, which tells us not to even handle specific objects that could lead one to work on the Sabbath. The latter, in essence, safeguard the former.

Some other well-known mitzvot d'rabbanan:

• Washing hands before eating bread (known as al netilat yadayim)
• Lighting Shabbat candles
• The celebrations of Purim and Chanukah
• The blessings before eating food
• The laws of eruv, or carrying on Shabbat

In the instance that a mitzvah from the Torah conflicts with a rabbinic mitzvah, the Torah-based mitzvah will always win out and take precedence.

This article continues here: https://www.learnreligions.com/what-is-a-mitzvah-2076795

 

[Grandpa]

Would you please in your own words define for me what you believe Supersessionism , or , Replacement Theology, is?

Sure.

It means that the Promises to the Children of God still, and always will, stand.

But the Children of God are those who have faith in Christ. And not necessarily those who trace their lineage back to Abraham through the flesh.

 

[Whispered]

Sure.

It means that the Promises to the Children of God still, and always will, stand.

But the Children of God are those who have faith in Christ. And not necessarily those who trace their lineage back to Abraham through the flesh.

It is actually Christian antisemitism.

The error of Replacement Theology

 

[posthuman]

. And also as a point of clarification, in my post I never said the Bible stated the Mitzvah are divided into four segments.

of course. i only meant to make sure what you put wasn't misinterpreted

 

[Grandpa]

It is actually Christian antisemitism.

The error of Replacement Theology

Encouraging people to become Children of God through faith in Christ is considered anti-Semitism?

Do you mean anti-Judaism???

Because I could accept that with no problems.

But anti-Semitic implies Christians are enemies to all Hebrew people. We won't even mention the Arabs who are part of that "Semitism" for the sake of simplicity.

Christians aren't the enemy of any people group. Christians ARE the enemy of different religions, however.


Can you comprehend the difference here? Not that I am too worried about it. People throw out that term anti-Semitic as much as any other racist term usually not understanding what they are talking about.

 

[posthuman]

Encouraging people to become Children of God through faith in Christ is considered anti-Semitism?

Do you mean anti-Judaism???

Because I could accept that with no problems.

But anti-Semitic implies Christians are enemies to all Hebrew people. We won't even mention the Arabs who are part of that "Semitism" for the sake of simplicity.

Christians aren't the enemy of any people group. Christians ARE the enemy of different religions, however.


Can you comprehend the difference here? Not that I am too worried about it. People throw out that term anti-Semitic as much as any other racist term usually not understanding what they are talking about.

the line between antisemitism & establishing the fundamental difference between the Christian faith and the Judaic religion is one that has been sadly blurred throughout history.

 

[wokinluv]

in the letter 1st John, John said that the Commands were " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".

so, once again, John was NOT referring to the Laws God gave to Israel ( only, gentiles never were nor are now under it).

another judeaizer fail.

Here's what the Lawgiver and the Judge gave us, His command from the beginning even before He sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior whom we should believe.

"Love one another"

If you can't accept it then you can argue and present your case to the one from whom the law came from and not me. If you acknowledge His authority then you have nothing to worry about His law and commandments because His yoke is easy and His burden is light. (Matthew 11:28-30)

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Romans 13:8-9

This is the message you heard from the BEGINNING: We should love one another. 1 John 3:11(2 John 1:5, John 13:34-35)

It is the command and the message we/they heard from the BEGINNING and considered by John as a new command.

“A NEW COMMAND I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

 

[Whispered]

Encouraging people to become Children of God through faith in Christ is considered anti-Semitism?

Do you mean anti-Judaism???

Because I could accept that with no problems.

But anti-Semitic implies Christians are enemies to all Hebrew people. We won't even mention the Arabs who are part of that "Semitism" for the sake of simplicity.

Christians aren't the enemy of any people group. Christians ARE the enemy of different religions, however.


Can you comprehend the difference here? Not that I am too worried about it. People throw out that term anti-Semitic as much as any other racist term usually not understanding what they are talking about.

It would appear you do not know of what you speak. Perhaps you have been led to believe as you do and let it stand at that.
You may wish to take a moment to read the article linked earlier so as to help your understanding a bit more.

Did you know that 83% of the Bible, 5/6ths, which would make it even more than 83% by a hair or two, is written about the Jews and Israel?
Please show me in scripture where God broke his covenant with Israel.

 

[Whispered]

the line between antisemitism & establishing the fundamental difference between the Christian faith and the Judaic religion is one that has been sadly blurred throughout history.

I would agree. The blur I believe began when the idea that God broke his covenant with Israel. So that the Christian church took their place as God's chosen people.

For clarification for my betterment please, is part of CC's statement of purpose or beliefs that of Supersessionism , Replacement Theology? I ask because I did not see that stated when I perused the forum prior to registering.

 

[posthuman]

The ceremonial law was nailed to the cross as we know.
.. The civic law ..
.. The moral law ..

how much of Jesus, the Word of God, was nailed to the cross?

2/3 of Him?

i always imagined there were 3 nails, but i might have just gotten that idea from iconography. a little bit of internet research suggests there is a case to be made for 4.

but His whole body died on the cross, right? i mean, we're not talking about Him being 'only mostly crucified' lol

 

[posthuman]

I would agree. The blur I believe began when the idea that God broke his covenant with Israel. So that the Christian church took their place as God's chosen people.

​

in the saying 'new,' He hath made the first old ​

(Hebrews 8:13 YLT)​

​

IMO this completely answers the thread topic question.

i do not believe He has forsaken Israel. Romans 9-11, which, *again* it'd be pretty useful if everyone here read Romans over and over ((not saying you haven't, Whispered, just sayin.. so much of that book is so relevant in this thread)). i do not believe the supplanting of the Sinai covenant with the covenant of Christ's flesh and blood is equivalent to the children of Israel having been forsaken or 'replaced' -- relevant also to that discussion is Deuteronomy 32:21 & Jeremiah 3:8 and much of Hebrews. i also do not believe the weird idea that all Christians have Hebrew DNA and represent the actual 'lost tribes' ((which is sort of a replacement-theology attempt at having cake and eating it too, IMO)).

So that the Christian church took their place as God's chosen people.

this part tho -- i know, right? the church was originally like 99% percent ethnic Jews, so...

 

[wokinluv]

1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Is this one of the Lords commandments, or is it just a suggestion?;

Matthew 11:28-29
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.


So which one, out of these two, would show that you know the Lord Jesus?

Working at the commandments given under Moses?

Or Resting in Christ?


And then we could ask the question "which one is more likely to keep the commandments given under Moses?" but that may be a more advanced question. Let's start off simply.

Would you think that it was a mockery of what Christ has done if a person taught that animal sacrifice was necessary for Christians?

Would you think it was a mockery of what Christ has done if a person taught that the Jewish festivals are necessary for Christians, as if they weren't fulfilled?

If you can understand that possibly it is a mockery of what Christ has done for others to teach that what Christ has fulfilled He didn't really fulfill but instead the Christian must work at it and do it then you should be able to grasp what is happening here.

Those who teach Christians to go back and work at the law are contradicting Christ and the epistles of the New Testament. This is a mockery of what Christ has done and what Christianity is.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I think that sharing what this treasure is that is inside us and has been given to us as His Gift is a good idea. Its just too bad when people reject it and would rather turn away from it and continue to try and earn their way in through their own works instead of by faith in Christ. Its too bad when people contradict Christ and Paul and decide to go back to the yoke of bondage telling others that's what Christians are supposed to do.

This was all hashed out 2000 yrs ago in Acts 15 then over and over again in all the Epistles.

Here's the synopsis;
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Romans 8:1 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

Love is walking in obedience to His commandments. (2 John 1:6) and resting in Christ is not about a physical rest but about submission and surrender to the will of God.

“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
Matthew 26:41-42 (Hebrews 5:7-9)

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:12-16

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:12