Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,111
447
83
Yahshua: "grace only, do nothing" doctrine

Post: strawman.
Incorrect. This only works if you were misquoted saying something you didn't say or I'm making an argument you didn't make, but this was a conversation between me and SG.

...we just went over strawman in the other thread, I thought we were in agreement as to what it is...

The doctrine is "grace alone, do no working at the law". Grandpa is clear on his stance, EG echoes it, and you thumbs upped a bunch of posts that absolutely no work is to be attempted; none in relation to the law, because any attempt whatsoever is working from ones OWN strength and understanding no matter what a person claims to have from Christ (i.e. strength, etc), thus all work is legalistic and judaistic; that one is to rest in the completed work of Christ".

^grace only, do nothing.

If you call what I say a strawman then what is the true doctrine?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,111
447
83
That wasn't the point.

You were saying it was a straw man that was destroyed.

I was showing that maybe if you didn't say the EXACT words your meaning was pretty plain. So maybe it wasn't a straw man but the intent of your words.

Or was it just your intent to fan the flames? (see what I did there?)
My intent was to quote Christ's parable and show parallels to the gift of grace, and what christ is going to say and do when he returns, and to testify to my life.

GB then attempted to attribute words I never posted, and now you seem to want me to imply them or step into the strawman already set ablaze. No thanks.

Instead, you can ask me what I meant about anything I said or you can refer me to a post where I actually said what was claimed I said. I'll be happy to respond to it.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,717
2,660
113
It would appear you do not know of what you speak. Perhaps you have been led to believe as you do and let it stand at that.
You may wish to take a moment to read the article linked earlier so as to help your understanding a bit more.

Did you know that 83% of the Bible, 5/6ths, which would make it even more than 83% by a hair or two, is written about the Jews and Israel?
Please show me in scripture where God broke his covenant with Israel.
I wouldn't say that God broke His Covenant with the Hebrews.

The Hebrews broke their covenant with God.

So God made a New Covenant. And offered it to the Hebrews First.

But they rejected it. So now the Gentiles, including all the nations of the earth, benefit by being participants in this New Covenant which is NOT specific to Jews ONLY. It has been extended to everyone.

Jews are allowed in this New Covenant as well. They are not excluded.


I read your link that you posted and I found it to be mostly error. Just like the error people make when they say Constatine is the one who got rid of the saturday sabbath. I'm not sure if you know this but not everything on the internet is true....
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,717
2,660
113
My intent was to quote Christ's parable and show parallels to the gift of grace, and what christ is going to say and do when he returns, and to testify to my life.

GB then attempted to attribute words I never posted, and now you seem to want me to imply them or step into the strawman already set ablaze. No thanks.

Instead, you can ask me what I meant about anything I said or you can refer me to a post where I actually said what was claimed I said. I'll be happy to respond to it.
Ok. I didn't realize that was what I was doing.

I thought you believed, basically, what GB9 had said about the 10 c's not being part of the Mosaic Covenant, even though you may have not said it word for word.

My apologies if you do not believe that.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,111
447
83
"do no working at the law" "do nothing"
This is a thread about law.

300 pages of conversation has been about law, whether to work it or not.

All the labels levied against members relate to law.

Has that not been the context since the beginning, Post: the law?

What is grace always pit against in these threads?

Hence "grace only, do nothing (......in the law)" doctrine.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,717
2,660
113
...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

Love is walking in obedience to His commandments. (2 John 1:6) and resting in Christ is not about a physical rest but about submission and surrender to the will of God.

“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
Matthew 26:41-42 (Hebrews 5:7-9)

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:12-16

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:12
Not sure if this really answers any of the questions I asked.

But its good scripture.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
36,172
13,471
113
I wouldn't say that God broke His Covenant with the Hebrews.

The Hebrews broke their covenant with God.

So God made a New Covenant. And offered it to the Hebrews First.

But they rejected it. So now the Gentiles, including all the nations of the earth, benefit by being participants in this New Covenant which is NOT specific to Jews ONLY. It has been extended to everyone.
Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world. I wonder why people want types and shadows instead.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,111
447
83
Ok. I didn't realize that was what I was doing.

I thought you believed, basically, what GB9 had said about the 10 c's not being part of the Mosaic Covenant, even though you may have not said it word for word.

My apologies if you do not believe that.
Lol I think it was one of my last posts in reply to you actually where I literally detailed EVERYTHING was in the sinai covenant before it was sealed.
 
Aug 17, 2019
226
167
43
Living for God
Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms. If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Peter 4:1-11
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,302
811
113
70
Marcelo, I believe the gospels contain words such as "Jesus came to fulfill the law." And in my humble opinion, when Christ was on the cross and He uttered "It is finished," I believe this could be interpreted as His completed work and doing away with the law. Also, God's tearing of the veil inside the temple is symbolic of removing what separates us from our Creator.
What you say makes sense, but I still don't have a sure opinion about the exact meaning of this portion of Scripture. But one thing is absolutely clear to me: Since the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15)the Law of Moses is no longer in force.

The Lord Jesus said: Not one jot or tittle will pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Today not even the orthodox Jews keep the Law of Moses a hundred percent and that means they themselves have already removed not only jots and tittles, but also many words, phrases and whole sentences from the Torah. Doesn't that mean ALL has already been fulfilled?

If Christians were supposed to keep the Law of Moses the letters of Paul would be completely different. The bulk of his letters would be dedicated to teaching Gentiles how to keep the Law. But, on the contrary, Paul tells us we are not under the Law.
 
Aug 17, 2019
226
167
43
I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— Romans 15:18
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,229
113
www.christiancourier.com
in the saying 'new,' He hath made the first old
(Hebrews 8:13 YLT)
IMO this completely answers the thread topic question.

i do not believe He has forsaken Israel. Romans 9-11, which, *again* it'd be pretty useful if everyone here read Romans over and over ((not saying you haven't, Whispered, just sayin.. so much of that book is so relevant in this thread)). i do not believe the supplanting of the Sinai covenant with the covenant of Christ's flesh and blood is equivalent to the children of Israel having been forsaken or 'replaced' -- relevant also to that discussion is Deuteronomy 32:21 & Jeremiah 3:8 and much of Hebrews. i also do not believe the weird idea that all Christians have Hebrew DNA and represent the actual 'lost tribes' ((which is sort of a replacement-theology attempt at having cake and eating it too, IMO)).
What of Jesus saying these things? Can we disagree or ignore them so as to insist the law of God is no longer in effect?

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” The Book of Matthew chapter 5 verses 18 &19​
“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” The Book of Luke chapter 16 verse 17​
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” The Book of Matthew chapter 5 verse 17​


this part tho -- i know, right? the church was originally like 99% percent ethnic Jews, so... :unsure:
So....:unsure: In light of that fact, why then is there animus among some in the church toward the Jews? Strange indeed.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,229
113
www.christiancourier.com
I wouldn't say that God broke His Covenant with the Hebrews.

The Hebrews broke their covenant with God.

So God made a New Covenant. And offered it to the Hebrews First.

But they rejected it. So now the Gentiles, including all the nations of the earth, benefit by being participants in this New Covenant which is NOT specific to Jews ONLY. It has been extended to everyone.

Jews are allowed in this New Covenant as well. They are not excluded.


I read your link that you posted and I found it to be mostly error. Just like the error people make when they say Constatine is the one who got rid of the saturday sabbath. I'm not sure if you know this but not everything on the internet is true....
If you would, point for point , please point out that which you judge to be mostly error in the link.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,717
2,660
113
Lol I think it was one of my last posts in reply to you actually where I literally detailed EVERYTHING was in the sinai covenant before it was sealed.
Well, yeah.

I thought you basically said the Lord fulfilled Levitical rites but not the 10 commandments.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,845
10,128
113
This is a thread about law.

300 pages of conversation has been about law, whether to work it or not.

All the labels levied against members relate to law.

Has that not been the context since the beginning, Post: the law?

What is grace always pit against in these threads?

Hence "grace only, do nothing (......in the law)" doctrine.
  • i thought the question of whether we are under the law had been completely resolved if not at then by the time i finished making my first post in this thread, quoting Jesus saying "new" and the letter to the Hebrews saying "by saying 'new'"
  • i'm not sure i saw the name badge table on my way in . . . ?
  • i haven't read all of the thread & hopped in midway to quote Christ and the epistle to the Hebrews, which, as i've said, in my mind wholly settles the thread title/OP question. i think that over a few hundred pages a variety of topics have come up, and i consider scripture mathematically described as a connected graph, which is to say, every bit of it has relationship of various complexity to every other bit of it. so, no, i don't think 'the context' of the thread has always been the law; even the thread title is a question embedded in a greater context. the context, in the largest sense, is Christ - and the sum of Him is greater than the sum of the law.
  • condemnation? that's its antithesis.
  • "do nothing in the law" ? someone really says that? "not under the law" is not equivalent to "completely antithetical to everything in the law"
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
36,172
13,471
113
Marcelo, I believe the gospels contain words such as "Jesus came to fulfill the law." And in my humble opinion, when Christ was on the cross and He uttered "It is finished," I believe this could be interpreted as His completed work and doing away with the law. Also, God's tearing of the veil inside the temple is symbolic of removing what separates us from our Creator.








:)
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,229
113
www.christiancourier.com
Just like the error people make when they say Constatine is the one who got rid of the saturday sabbath.
I wanted to answer this part of your remarks separate from that of the details I requested to rebut the link I shared, as you said there were multiple errors therein.
As pertains to Constantine and his council changing the day of worship to Sunday:
March 7th, 321 AD Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3
On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time

As pertains to Easter and Constantine.
On the Keeping of Easter. From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council. (Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18–20.) When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable, than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,113 we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour’s Passion to the present day [according 113 We must read !"#$%, not &"'#$%, as the Mayence impression of the edition of Valerius has it. 114 NPNF (V2-14) Philip Schaff to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course (the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
The Old Testament pointed the Jews to Jesus. The New Testament points the Gentiles to Jesus. Jesus points all towards kingdom of God.


Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while He is near

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return unto the LORD and he will have mercy upon him and to our God for he will abundantly pardon.
(What happens to the wicked who do not forsake their way and unrighteous man his thoughts, and do not return unto the Lord? No mercy and no pardon)

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(because man doesn't think like God)

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(study, to show yourself approved, don't judge)

Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it

(What prospers? the Word that goes forth)



Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Romans 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth and in thy heart that is the word of faith, which we preach

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.



Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith Lord, who hath believed our report?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,302
811
113
70
I am not saying what your friend did by telling everyone what to do was right. I do not know if he was led by the Holy Spirit. If not there is something to be said for leading men to the anointing with the Holy Spirit where you can be sure they will be led into "all Truth".............

.......Just as it was then, wait for it, seek it with all your heart. The Holy Spirit is the Key to all that plagues every beleiver! It is a absolute necessity! You don't have to speak in tongues, we should all just desire the transfromative work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
He claimed and seemed to be Spirit led, but eventually it became obvious that he was not. I came across him a year or so after he started working for false prophet Edir Macedo and he tried to excuse himself saying: "I'm working for Universal Church of God's Kingdom, but I don't agree with anything they do". I just said "Oh, yeah" (not sarcastically). But I told myself: This is like driving criminals to the scene of a robbery and then say you have nothing to do with their evil deeds.

We must love the Lord our God with all our hearts and with all our souls and with all our strength and with all our minds'; and our neighbors as ourselves.'"

The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows, but the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

I'm doing my best to serve God and if I'm wrong He knows my heart and will forgive me.