Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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Good words by Finney:

THERE are two extremes in religion, equally false and equally fatal. And there are two classes of hypocrites that occupy these two extremes. The first class make religion consist altogether in the belief of certain abstract doctrines, or what they call faith, and lay little or no stress on good works. The other class make religion to consist altogether in good works, (I mean dead works,) and lay little or no stress on faith in Jesus Christ, but hope for salvation by their own deeds. The Jews belonged generally to the last mentioned class. Their religious teachers taught them that they would be saved by obedience to the ceremonial law. And therefore, when Paul began to preach, he seems to have attacked more especially this error of the Jews. He was determined to carry the main question, that men are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, in opposition to the doctrine of the Scribes and Pharisees, that salvation is by obedience to law. And he pressed this point so earnestly, in his preaching and in his epistles, that he carried it, and settled the faith of the church in the great doctrine of justification by faith. And then certain individuals in the church laid hold of this doctrine and carried it to the opposite extreme, and maintained that men are saved by faith altogether, irrespective of works of any kind. They overlooked the plain principle, that genuine faith always results in good works, and is itself a good work.
Hi SG!

At least with regard to the bolded sentence above, I agree with you. IMO this grace-plus-nothing theology is deceitful. Obviously we are not saved by works, but the absence of benevolent actions reveals a dead faith. I can't turn down a beggar on the grounds that salvation is not by works.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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Ohhh. How sad. I suppose you still haven't really listened to what I said.

But its in the very first Scripture that you posted and didn't understand.


They may REST from their labours and their works do follow them.

Do you understand this is what I have been describing to you (and the other judaizers) for awhile now?

No, of course you don't. Legalists don't really understand the scriptures they post.


Take Matthew 11:28 and then immediately read Ephesians 2:10... See if you can start to understand Rev 14:13...

There's more to it than that but lets start slow...
We not only understand " THE SCRIPTURES" , but we understand you too!!


Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not
Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matthew 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Matthew 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Did we all read what is going on here. REPENT. There were mighty works being done SO MIGHTY THINGS SHOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPENING. All that was needed was REPENTANCE. But they would not repent. They were laboring and heavy laden IN THEIR SINS. JESUS GIVES US REST FROM OUR SINS AND FROM STAYING IN OUR SINFUL NATURE. HE SETS US FREE OF THE BONDAGE OF SIN THROUGH THE WORK HE DID AND THROUGH OUR EASY ACCESS TO FORGIVENESS AND TO BE CLEANSED BY HIS BLOOD. HE FREED US UP FROM THE BURDEN OF A SIN FILLED LIFE THAT WAS HARD TO LIVE AND ONLY PROMISED DEATH. HE SET US FREE FROM ALL OF THAT. SO GO OUT AND DO GOOD WORKS FOR THE LORD AND LOVE AND TEACH THE LOVE OF GOD BECAUSE IT IS NOT A HEAVY BURDEN, IT IS LIGHT AND EASY AS CAN BE. EVEN TO THIS VERY DAY, SOME ARE SADLY BEING TAUGHT NOT TO REPENT. BUT EVEN JESUS TOLD US HOW TO PRAY AND IN THAT VERY PRAYER WE ARE TO ASK FOR OUR DAILY BREAD AND FORGIVENESS AS WE ARE TO FORGIVE. COULD YOU IMAGINE NOT REPENTING AND BEING WASHED OF YOUR SINS EVERYDAY? SHOOT, YOU WOULD BE STUCK WHERE YOU STOOD, NEVER ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY ARE DISOBEDIENT TO? THE LAWS AND COMMANDS OF GOD

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I'LL JUST BET THEY ARE NAME CALLERS

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of HIS grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
WE ARE CREATED IN CHRIST UNTO GOOD WORKS, SO WE BEST GET WORKING


Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For Je is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
"contained in ordinances", HERE WE HAVE JESUS BREAKING UP THE LAW, THE ONE SOME SAY CAN'T BE DIVIDED. I GUESS IT CAN BE DIVIDED AFTER ALL. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE SAYS IT A BUNCH OF TIMES DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. ALWAYS STUDY THE WORD OF GOD FOR YOURSELF. NOW IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT CONTAINED IN THE ORDINANCES MEANS, THIS COULD BE A PROBLEM.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

i SEE. dO YOU?
 
May 1, 2019
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Hi SG!

At least with regard to the bolded sentence above, I agree with you. IMO this grace-plus-nothing theology is deceitful. Obviously we are not saved by works, but the absence of benevolent actions reveals a dead faith. I can't turn down a beggar on the grounds that salvation is not by works.

Greetings Marcelo,

Yes, there is beauty in the balance. Everyone will express their faith is varying degrees of "good works". A more thankful, humble heart will do more to please God and his fellow man. As a walk matures a new relationship dynamic begins to emerge. That of falling in love and deeper admiration of God. This is the result of God and Yahshua revealing themselves to the mature believer in new ways that are beyond what can be told of it. This deeper level of walk reveals an even deeper appreciation for The Law than men can have naturally. it is a Divine gift that grows with continual fellowship. Many who witness this gift in others cannot comprehend it so they ridicule it. I pray everyone seeks it and finds this kind of "walk".

:) SG
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Look you Old Testament people. Would you go to the medial books if you were ill or would you go to the author?

Well you have the book, now go to the author.
In the same "vein of thought." If/when N.T. people become ill/sick, do they go to the "Author?" Or, do they "go to the Doctor's office?"
Meaning, is not the same God who breathed the breath of life into man, and made him a living soul, Unable to heal one's flesh body, as He is also able to heal one's "spiritual body?" Even to the prevention of one becoming sick, yea, even sickly, in the first place? Should give one/"man"/Christendom, to ponder, just how far one's "spiritual body" has "drifted away" from God's face, eh?
Tis NOT God who distances Himself away from one's flesh body! Oh no! :cry: Tis mans choice in mans "lack of effort/s", and becoming "wise in their OWN conceits", that CREATES that "distance!"
2 Chronicles 7
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


Should one even think that God has ceased doing what these following several "verses" contain?
Then, one/"man"/Christendom, is thinking quite the opposite, of that which God is STILL DOING!
Exodus 20

20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to PROVE you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Deuteronomy 8
16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might PROVE thee, to do thee GOOD at thy latter end;(?) :unsure:

Malachi 3
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
1Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

So Jesus "Abolished Sacrifices", eh? :unsure::cry:

 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Greetings PH,

Faith had been part of the dynamic between man and God since the beginning.

Faith is not a new phenomenon.

What is new for faith to be enacted on, as "faith" is an action word, are the redemption that has been provided and the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, to put in our hearts the will and desire to keep the "Righteousness" God ordained for His creation from the beginning.

Gods requirements have always been and always will be as long as there is a heaven and an earth and men with free wills who inhabit it.

These are immutable facts.

The faith we enact is to believe that the righteousness which is required to begin fellowship with Gods Holy Spirit has been purchased for us and is ours if we accept the invitation of The Heavenly Father to recognize our need to repent from our sins and then to receive the gift of justification through Yahshua whom we covenant with. In that covenant we acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. As Lord we pledge to Keep His commands and as Savior we accept redemption through His sacrifice and remain mindful of this. Part of our obedience to Him is to be baptised and to receive The Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth and keeps us obedient to His commands.

Every one of these is unseen but is made manifest through the obedience that is enacted through faith in all of them. What is made manifest is an New Creation man who is obedient to Gods will/Commands.
have you read Romans yet?

read Romans, please. over and over. it has been called the Leviticus of the NT.
i really don't think you can understand Leviticus until you have understood Romans.


For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed — a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
(Romans 1:17)
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
(Romans 3:21-22)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
(Romans 3:28)
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
(Romans 9:30-32)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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What is new for faith to be enacted on, as "faith" is an action word, are the redemption that has been provided and the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, to put in our hearts the will and desire to keep the "Righteousness" God ordained for His creation from the beginning.
Enoch.
Noah.
Job.
Abraham.
Isaac.
Jacob.

you think they didn't have the will or desire to be righteous? none of them had the law.


you should read Romans; it has a lot to say about faith.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Gods requirements have always been and always will be as long as there is a heaven and an earth and men with free wills who inhabit it.

And what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:8)


 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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They don't make the Word of God void. They just make your understanding of working for Salvation void.

Big difference between the two.

The adversary is probably the one that came up with working for your salvation. Seems like pretty much the whole world believes that lie.

AGAIN, I do not believe in working for Salvation. No one here, except those who believe in the OSAS Doctrine of men do.

Couldn't even make it one post without just stating what YOU BELIEVE, could you? I received the gift of salvation, and am now moving forward. You believe you did also, but still have never taken a step towards God. So sad. But bearing false witness habitually tells everyone who reads these posts just exactly" who" they are being written for and by whom. If those who does not agree with you keep telling you the same thing and yet you keep on adding to or changing their words and going against the commands of God like they have no meanings, those are the fruits of the spirit that you can't change.
 
May 1, 2019
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That seems to be what we are caught in the middle of today. As for myself, knowing none of the "religions" doctrines of yesterday or today, because I only study the Word and the Word, and the spirit guide me to the truth in that Word, that I find myself defending against "powers and principalities" I have no idea even exist. I have been told so many times "I don't fit" with the others who "believe" in a somewhat "like" manner, but that is the freedom of not knowing what way I am supposed to "believe" .

I think that is why some believe they can just "insert" into the statements of others what they believe is a belief. Satan is doing a marvelous job of confusion, isn't he? Godd points here.

Greetings DeighAnn,

Yeah, conform of you are out. That is what they call "Religion" Mans box that he keeps God in. God works in every mans heart according to His perfect will and pleasure AND the willingness of the man to allow Him place to work through His Holy Spirit.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I mean, it's literally right there.

What did the living God ordain beforehand that we should walk in?

...the answer will be the "good works" Paul is referring to.

----

Ordain -

Definition: order or decree (something) officially.

synonyms: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay down, set down, establish, fix, enact, legislate, dictate, prescribe, pronounce

Example sentence: "it was ordained that anyone hunting in the forest without permission was to pay a fine"

----

Notice that I haven't injected any personal interpretation. I've simply posted a passage from Paul, the commonly accepted definition and synonyms of one word, and a question.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Good words by Finney:

bad words by Finney:



The classical dogma of original sin, embraced by Protestants and Roman Catholics alike, is "anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma," Finney declared.27 In explicit language, Finney denied the notion that human beings possess a sinful nature.28 Therefore, if Adam leads individuals into sin merely by his poor example, this leads logically to the corollary of Christ redeeming by offering a perfect example. Guilt and corruption are not inherent, but are the result of choices. The author responds to a number of proof texts commonly adduced in support of original sin. When the Psalmist, for instance, declares, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (Ps.58:3), Finney replies, "But does this mean that they are really and literally estranged from the day and hour of their birth, and that they really go astray the very day they are born, speaking lies?" In other words, is this verse really telling us the truth? "This every one knows to be contrary to fact," as if "fact" and Finney's interpretation of his experience are synonymous. Therefore, the text must mean, "...that when the wicked are estranged and go astray from the commencement of their moral agency," in spite of what the text actually says.29 With Pelagius, Kant, and all who have been unable to accept this rather enigmatic biblical doctrine, Finney simply concludes of original sin, "It is a monstrous and blasphemous dogma, that a holy God is angry with any creature for possessing a nature with which he was sent into being without his knowledge or consent."30 Later, he wrote, "Original or constitutional sinfulness, physical regeneration, and all their kindred and resulting dogmas, are alike subversive of the gospel, and repulsive to the human intelligence."31
The medieval church, of course, entertained a notion of concupiscence, attaching sinfulness to desire--not the desire for a particular thing, but desire in and of itself. Warfield argued that Taylor's and Finney's twist on "concupiscence" "differs from that doctrine at this point only in its completer Pelagianism."32
From the denial of original sin, Finney is free to move to a denial of the doctrine of supernatural regeneration. Like revival, regeneration itself was a gift of God, a "surprising work of God," according to the first Great Awakening. But for Finney, while the Holy Spirit exerted moral influences, "the actual turning...is the sinner's own act."33 The evangelist's most popular sermon, which he preached at Boston's Park Street Church, was titled, "Sinners Bound To Change Their Own Hearts." "There is nothing in religion beyond the ordinary powers of nature," Finney declared, rendering the charge of Pelagianism undeniable. "Religion is the work of man," he said. "It consists entirely in the right exercise of the powers of nature. It is just that and nothing else. When mankind become religious, they are not enabled to put forth exertions which they were unable before to put forth. They only exert powers which they had before, in a different way, and use them for the glory of God. A revival is not a miracle, nor dependent on a miracle, in any sense. It is a purely philosophical result of the right use of constituted means--as much as any other effect produced by the application of means" (emphasis in original).34
One notices in the preceding citation the dominance of the mechanical and pragmatic view of the universe. It was, after all, the dawn of the Industrial Age and the human attempt to imitate Newtonian metaphysics by creating an ordered, predictable existence through mechanics and technology. As William James' philosophical pragmatism was well-suited to the American psyche, so Finney's popular version said more about the factors by which he was shaped than about the influences he himself exerted. James (1842-1910) argued, "On pragmatic principles, if the hypothesis of God works satisfactorily in the widest sense of the word, it is true." Thus, James wanted to know "the truth's cash-value in experiential terms."35 "Many servants of the Lord," the foreword to a modern edition of Finney's Lecutres reads, "should be diligently searching for a gospel that 'works,' and I am happy to state they can find it in this volume." The American pragmatic impulse that produced both Finney and James, and their respective heirs, could not have been more aptly expressed than the former's insistence upon revival depending on the correct techniques rather than on the sovereign freedom and grace of God.
In fact, what is already observable up to this point is that Finney's theology hardly requires God at all. It is an ethical system based on general self-evident principles that men and women can discover and follow if only they make that choice.
footnote references in the body of text can be found at the bottom of the page it was quoted from:
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/charles_finney_vs_westminster_confession.shtml


Finney is the guy responsible for popularizing the 'altar call' in church evangelism, creating generations of people who think they are saved because they have been emotionally coerced into repeating a magic prayer or performing some self-induced behavior modification. that is in fact, Finney's gospel: self-achieved behavior modification, having nothing to do with a Spirit that draws men to God or who works in them to renew them, but purely the power of an orator to convince them to perform a few rituals and thenceforth become 'nice people' who do various 'works' out of coercion.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Every one of them had the Law. Look again
you need to read Romans.
and apparently also you need to read Galatians.
please read your Bible. i will also pray you understand what you read.



Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
(Galatians 3:19)

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.
(Romans 5:20)
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” i meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
(Galatians 3:16-17)

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
(Romans 4:13)

 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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But those who INSIST on working at the law DON'T recognize what I am saying.

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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What is new for faith to be enacted on . . .
the Holy Spirit, to put in our hearts the will and desire to keep the "Righteousness" God ordained
i pointed out righteous men who did not have the law, asking whether you think they did not have the will or desire to do righteousness in their hearts? since you say that's 'new' ?

you replied, wrongly, that they had the law.

you did not answer my question. even if they did have the law ((they didn't; the Bible says so)), you said it is a 'new' thing for us to have the will and desire in our hearts to do righteousness.

so you're saying that no one before Christ's ascension had it in their heart to do what is right?
why'd Daniel do so before -- he had the law -- fear of punishment? therefore, self-imposed behavior modification?
same for David? he did what was right because he was terrified of retribution from God?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts
i notice Peter's appeal is 'as strangers and pilgrims' -- not 'as being fearful of the condemnation in the law for disobedience'

:)


if you're trying to convince me to do good, you're maybe not in the conversation you think you are in. no one here is saying 'do no works' when they say salvation is not by works. we have a whole thread about it, like, a thousand pages long. pretty popular topic as it turns out lol
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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But legalists and Judaizers twist all the scripture to make Rest in Christ somehow mean working at the law. It is so simple to show that Rest is NOT working at the law I don't really know why legalists and Judaizers are so adamant in their failed position. Makes me think they just don't know any other way.
But Hebrews says rest has to do with the faith in one's heart and works of obedience or disobedience, doesn't it? These two things are always placed together when talking about rest.


Hebrews 3:12-19

12 Take heed, brothers, lest ever there will be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, into falling away from the living God.

- belief is found in heart
- falling away is an action


13 But encourage one another every day, while it is called today, so that not one of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

- the bible says sin is an action. A work of breaking God's law

- the heart hardens through sin


14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if indeed we should hold firm unto the end the assurance from the beginning.

- remaining partakers of Christ is conditional, requiring endurance till the end.


15 As it is said: “Today if you should hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.”

- rebellion is acts of disobedience
- the heart hardens in rebellion


16 For who were those having heard, rebelled, but not all those having come out of Egypt by the leading of Moses?

- bible says faith comes by hearing
- but these who heard the voice of God still disobeyed


17 And with whom was He indignant forty years, if not with those having sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they shall not enter into His rest, if not to those having disobeyed? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

- sin = disobedience
- Rest was not entered because of disobedience

- Rest was not entered because of unbelief

- (dis)obedience and (un)belief are linked together


Hebrews 4:1-11

1 Therefore, of the promise to enter into His rest left remaining, we should fear, lest ever any of you should seem to have fallen short.

- "therefore" means "based on (ch3)"

- ch 3 says rest is not entered through disobedience AND unbelief

- we must fear lest we fall into disobedience


2 And indeed we are those having had the gospel preached just as they did; but the message of their hearing did not profit them, not having been united with the faith of those having heard.

- bible says faith comes by hearing
- they heard, but they didn't believe


3 For those having believed enter into the rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in my wrath, ‘they shall not enter into My rest.’”

And yet the works have been finished from the foundation of the world.


- God had finished his work since the world began
- rest is entered in through belief
- again, belief and obedience are linked


4 For He has spoken somewhere concerning the seventh day in this way, “And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.” 5 And again in this passage. “They shall not enter into My rest.”

- God rested from HIS works on the 7th Day


6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter into it, and those having received the good news formerly did not enter in because of disobedience, 7 again He appoints a certain day as “Today,” saying through David after so long a time, just as it has been said, “Today, if you shall hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”

- one can receive the good news but still not obey

- the disobedient do not enter rest

- belief and obedience are linked


8 For if Joshua had given rest to them, He would not have spoken after this about another day. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one having entered into His rest, he also rested from his works, as God did from His.

- once one enters God's rest they rest from THEIR works (Adam was cursed to till the ground for his sin)

- It doesn't say 'they rest for God's works'

- once again, these chapters say faith AND obedience is how to enter the rest


11 Therefore we should be diligent to enter into that rest, so that no one should fall by the same example of disobedience.

- diligent means "work hard"
- be diligent to be obedient
- belief and obedience are linked


I've pulled each point straight from Hebrews 3-4 (no twisting), which seems to perfectly match the passage in James 2: "Faith without work is dead."

Faith + Obedience = Rest
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
bad words by Finney:


The classical dogma of original sin, embraced by Protestants and Roman Catholics alike, is "anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma," Finney declared.27 In explicit language, Finney denied the notion that human beings possess a sinful nature.28 Therefore, if Adam leads individuals into sin merely by his poor example, this leads logically to the corollary of Christ redeeming by offering a perfect example. Guilt and corruption are not inherent, but are the result of choices. The author responds to a number of proof texts commonly adduced in support of original sin. When the Psalmist, for instance, declares, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (Ps.58:3), Finney replies, "But does this mean that they are really and literally estranged from the day and hour of their birth, and that they really go astray the very day they are born, speaking lies?" In other words, is this verse really telling us the truth? "This every one knows to be contrary to fact," as if "fact" and Finney's interpretation of his experience are synonymous. Therefore, the text must mean, "...that when the wicked are estranged and go astray from the commencement of their moral agency," in spite of what the text actually says.29 With Pelagius, Kant, and all who have been unable to accept this rather enigmatic biblical doctrine, Finney simply concludes of original sin, "It is a monstrous and blasphemous dogma, that a holy God is angry with any creature for possessing a nature with which he was sent into being without his knowledge or consent."30 Later, he wrote, "Original or constitutional sinfulness, physical regeneration, and all their kindred and resulting dogmas, are alike subversive of the gospel, and repulsive to the human intelligence."31
The medieval church, of course, entertained a notion of concupiscence, attaching sinfulness to desire--not the desire for a particular thing, but desire in and of itself. Warfield argued that Taylor's and Finney's twist on "concupiscence" "differs from that doctrine at this point only in its completer Pelagianism."32
From the denial of original sin, Finney is free to move to a denial of the doctrine of supernatural regeneration. Like revival, regeneration itself was a gift of God, a "surprising work of God," according to the first Great Awakening. But for Finney, while the Holy Spirit exerted moral influences, "the actual turning...is the sinner's own act."33 The evangelist's most popular sermon, which he preached at Boston's Park Street Church, was titled, "Sinners Bound To Change Their Own Hearts." "There is nothing in religion beyond the ordinary powers of nature," Finney declared, rendering the charge of Pelagianism undeniable. "Religion is the work of man," he said. "It consists entirely in the right exercise of the powers of nature. It is just that and nothing else. When mankind become religious, they are not enabled to put forth exertions which they were unable before to put forth. They only exert powers which they had before, in a different way, and use them for the glory of God. A revival is not a miracle, nor dependent on a miracle, in any sense. It is a purely philosophical result of the right use of constituted means--as much as any other effect produced by the application of means" (emphasis in original).34
One notices in the preceding citation the dominance of the mechanical and pragmatic view of the universe. It was, after all, the dawn of the Industrial Age and the human attempt to imitate Newtonian metaphysics by creating an ordered, predictable existence through mechanics and technology. As William James' philosophical pragmatism was well-suited to the American psyche, so Finney's popular version said more about the factors by which he was shaped than about the influences he himself exerted. James (1842-1910) argued, "On pragmatic principles, if the hypothesis of God works satisfactorily in the widest sense of the word, it is true." Thus, James wanted to know "the truth's cash-value in experiential terms."35 "Many servants of the Lord," the foreword to a modern edition of Finney's Lecutres reads, "should be diligently searching for a gospel that 'works,' and I am happy to state they can find it in this volume." The American pragmatic impulse that produced both Finney and James, and their respective heirs, could not have been more aptly expressed than the former's insistence upon revival depending on the correct techniques rather than on the sovereign freedom and grace of God.
In fact, what is already observable up to this point is that Finney's theology hardly requires God at all. It is an ethical system based on general self-evident principles that men and women can discover and follow if only they make that choice.
footnote references in the body of text can be found at the bottom of the page it was quoted from:
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/charles_finney_vs_westminster_confession.shtml


Finney is the guy responsible for popularizing the 'altar call' in church evangelism, creating generations of people who think they are saved because they have been emotionally coerced into repeating a magic prayer or performing some self-induced behavior modification. that is in fact, Finney's gospel: self-achieved behavior modification, having nothing to do with a Spirit that draws men to God or who works in them to renew them, but purely the power of an orator to convince them to perform a few rituals and thenceforth become 'nice people' who do various 'works' out of coercion.

Real Calvinism

Resident Faculty, W. Robert Godfrey | July 26, 2010 | Type: Articles



“Strong on doctrine and scholarship, but weak on life, evangelism and passion.” Too frequently this is the popular image of Calvinism. Contemporary Calvinists may sometimes be responsible for perpetuating this image. In their eagerness for theological precision some Calvinists seem to want to turn their churches into theological debating societies. To the extent the popular image is accurate, contemporary Calvinists have ceased to be genuine Calvinists.

Real Calvinists are as concerned about heart religion as they are about head religion. That is to say they are as concerned about the life of faith as they are about doctrinal orthodoxy.

In America today much evangelical religion seems so concerned about religious experience that it tends to neglect the importance of doctrinal truth. But this imbalance in evangelicalism should not lead to an imbalance in Calvinism. True Calvinism knows that sound doctrine is and must be life changing.

John Calvin said that true religion was born of piety. He defined piety as “that reverence joined with love of God which the knowledge of his benefits induces.” (Inst. I,ii,1) Knowledge of God’s truth is foundational, but it always bears fruit in reverence and love. The distinctive truth that Calvinism finds in the Bible leads to a distinctive piety, life and worship.



First published in Evangelium, Vol. 3, Issue 5

© Westminster Seminary California All rights reserved
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
bad words by Finney:


The classical dogma of original sin, embraced by Protestants and Roman Catholics alike, is "anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma," Finney declared.27 In explicit language, Finney denied the notion that human beings possess a sinful nature.28 Therefore, if Adam leads individuals into sin merely by his poor example, this leads logically to the corollary of Christ redeeming by offering a perfect example. Guilt and corruption are not inherent, but are the result of choices. The author responds to a number of proof texts commonly adduced in support of original sin. When the Psalmist, for instance, declares, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (Ps.58:3), Finney replies, "But does this mean that they are really and literally estranged from the day and hour of their birth, and that they really go astray the very day they are born, speaking lies?" In other words, is this verse really telling us the truth? "This every one knows to be contrary to fact," as if "fact" and Finney's interpretation of his experience are synonymous. Therefore, the text must mean, "...that when the wicked are estranged and go astray from the commencement of their moral agency," in spite of what the text actually says.29 With Pelagius, Kant, and all who have been unable to accept this rather enigmatic biblical doctrine, Finney simply concludes of original sin, "It is a monstrous and blasphemous dogma, that a holy God is angry with any creature for possessing a nature with which he was sent into being without his knowledge or consent."30 Later, he wrote, "Original or constitutional sinfulness, physical regeneration, and all their kindred and resulting dogmas, are alike subversive of the gospel, and repulsive to the human intelligence."31
The medieval church, of course, entertained a notion of concupiscence, attaching sinfulness to desire--not the desire for a particular thing, but desire in and of itself. Warfield argued that Taylor's and Finney's twist on "concupiscence" "differs from that doctrine at this point only in its completer Pelagianism."32
From the denial of original sin, Finney is free to move to a denial of the doctrine of supernatural regeneration. Like revival, regeneration itself was a gift of God, a "surprising work of God," according to the first Great Awakening. But for Finney, while the Holy Spirit exerted moral influences, "the actual turning...is the sinner's own act."33 The evangelist's most popular sermon, which he preached at Boston's Park Street Church, was titled, "Sinners Bound To Change Their Own Hearts." "There is nothing in religion beyond the ordinary powers of nature," Finney declared, rendering the charge of Pelagianism undeniable. "Religion is the work of man," he said. "It consists entirely in the right exercise of the powers of nature. It is just that and nothing else. When mankind become religious, they are not enabled to put forth exertions which they were unable before to put forth. They only exert powers which they had before, in a different way, and use them for the glory of God. A revival is not a miracle, nor dependent on a miracle, in any sense. It is a purely philosophical result of the right use of constituted means--as much as any other effect produced by the application of means" (emphasis in original).34
One notices in the preceding citation the dominance of the mechanical and pragmatic view of the universe. It was, after all, the dawn of the Industrial Age and the human attempt to imitate Newtonian metaphysics by creating an ordered, predictable existence through mechanics and technology. As William James' philosophical pragmatism was well-suited to the American psyche, so Finney's popular version said more about the factors by which he was shaped than about the influences he himself exerted. James (1842-1910) argued, "On pragmatic principles, if the hypothesis of God works satisfactorily in the widest sense of the word, it is true." Thus, James wanted to know "the truth's cash-value in experiential terms."35 "Many servants of the Lord," the foreword to a modern edition of Finney's Lecutres reads, "should be diligently searching for a gospel that 'works,' and I am happy to state they can find it in this volume." The American pragmatic impulse that produced both Finney and James, and their respective heirs, could not have been more aptly expressed than the former's insistence upon revival depending on the correct techniques rather than on the sovereign freedom and grace of God.
In fact, what is already observable up to this point is that Finney's theology hardly requires God at all. It is an ethical system based on general self-evident principles that men and women can discover and follow if only they make that choice.
footnote references in the body of text can be found at the bottom of the page it was quoted from:
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/charles_finney_vs_westminster_confession.shtml


Finney is the guy responsible for popularizing the 'altar call' in church evangelism, creating generations of people who think they are saved because they have been emotionally coerced into repeating a magic prayer or performing some self-induced behavior modification. that is in fact, Finney's gospel: self-achieved behavior modification, having nothing to do with a Spirit that draws men to God or who works in them to renew them, but purely the power of an orator to convince them to perform a few rituals and thenceforth become 'nice people' who do various 'works' out of coercion.
2nd part

In History

That conviction was not limited to Calvin or the first generation of Calvinists. Again and again throughout the history of the Reformed movement the commitment to a religion of both the head and heart has been reasserted. The Heidelberg Catechism, written in 1563, powerfully demonstrates that fact. Warm, vital piety is one of the distinguishing marks of the catechism. Repeatedly it asks, “How does this doctrine profit you?”

In the seventeenth century we can find an example of this commitment to head and heart religion in the Dutch Reformed theologian Gisbertus Voetius. He was one of the great scholastic theologians of his era and was very concerned with accurate theology. But he was also very concerned about vital religion. His first published work was “Proof of the Power of Godliness.” The title of his inaugural lecture as professor of theology summarized the passion of his life: “On knowledge joined with piety.”

Voetius had a conviction very much like that of the Puritans in Great Britain. They often referred to Ephesians 5:15 as a foundation of their concerns: “Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise.” For the Puritans, the Christian life must be an examined life. The commitment to being careful in what Christians believe and how they live is crucial. The Puritans summarized their insights in the Westminster Confession and Catechisms. In these key documents we can see they are as concerned about vital and holy lives as they are about doctrinal truth.

American Calvinism has had a similar conviction. The founding documents of Princeton Theological Seminary, the first Presbyterian seminary founded in America in 1812, include the statement: “learning without zeal and zeal without learning must ultimately prove injurious to the church.” Princeton Seminary – and Westminster California as one of its successors – recognized that both zeal and learning were important for the well-being of the church. Learning without zeal is cold and tends to deadness and rationalism. Zeal without learning is uninformed emotionalism.
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
bad words by Finney:


The classical dogma of original sin, embraced by Protestants and Roman Catholics alike, is "anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma," Finney declared.27 In explicit language, Finney denied the notion that human beings possess a sinful nature.28 Therefore, if Adam leads individuals into sin merely by his poor example, this leads logically to the corollary of Christ redeeming by offering a perfect example. Guilt and corruption are not inherent, but are the result of choices. The author responds to a number of proof texts commonly adduced in support of original sin. When the Psalmist, for instance, declares, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (Ps.58:3), Finney replies, "But does this mean that they are really and literally estranged from the day and hour of their birth, and that they really go astray the very day they are born, speaking lies?" In other words, is this verse really telling us the truth? "This every one knows to be contrary to fact," as if "fact" and Finney's interpretation of his experience are synonymous. Therefore, the text must mean, "...that when the wicked are estranged and go astray from the commencement of their moral agency," in spite of what the text actually says.29 With Pelagius, Kant, and all who have been unable to accept this rather enigmatic biblical doctrine, Finney simply concludes of original sin, "It is a monstrous and blasphemous dogma, that a holy God is angry with any creature for possessing a nature with which he was sent into being without his knowledge or consent."30 Later, he wrote, "Original or constitutional sinfulness, physical regeneration, and all their kindred and resulting dogmas, are alike subversive of the gospel, and repulsive to the human intelligence."31
The medieval church, of course, entertained a notion of concupiscence, attaching sinfulness to desire--not the desire for a particular thing, but desire in and of itself. Warfield argued that Taylor's and Finney's twist on "concupiscence" "differs from that doctrine at this point only in its completer Pelagianism."32
From the denial of original sin, Finney is free to move to a denial of the doctrine of supernatural regeneration. Like revival, regeneration itself was a gift of God, a "surprising work of God," according to the first Great Awakening. But for Finney, while the Holy Spirit exerted moral influences, "the actual turning...is the sinner's own act."33 The evangelist's most popular sermon, which he preached at Boston's Park Street Church, was titled, "Sinners Bound To Change Their Own Hearts." "There is nothing in religion beyond the ordinary powers of nature," Finney declared, rendering the charge of Pelagianism undeniable. "Religion is the work of man," he said. "It consists entirely in the right exercise of the powers of nature. It is just that and nothing else. When mankind become religious, they are not enabled to put forth exertions which they were unable before to put forth. They only exert powers which they had before, in a different way, and use them for the glory of God. A revival is not a miracle, nor dependent on a miracle, in any sense. It is a purely philosophical result of the right use of constituted means--as much as any other effect produced by the application of means" (emphasis in original).34
One notices in the preceding citation the dominance of the mechanical and pragmatic view of the universe. It was, after all, the dawn of the Industrial Age and the human attempt to imitate Newtonian metaphysics by creating an ordered, predictable existence through mechanics and technology. As William James' philosophical pragmatism was well-suited to the American psyche, so Finney's popular version said more about the factors by which he was shaped than about the influences he himself exerted. James (1842-1910) argued, "On pragmatic principles, if the hypothesis of God works satisfactorily in the widest sense of the word, it is true." Thus, James wanted to know "the truth's cash-value in experiential terms."35 "Many servants of the Lord," the foreword to a modern edition of Finney's Lecutres reads, "should be diligently searching for a gospel that 'works,' and I am happy to state they can find it in this volume." The American pragmatic impulse that produced both Finney and James, and their respective heirs, could not have been more aptly expressed than the former's insistence upon revival depending on the correct techniques rather than on the sovereign freedom and grace of God.
In fact, what is already observable up to this point is that Finney's theology hardly requires God at all. It is an ethical system based on general self-evident principles that men and women can discover and follow if only they make that choice.
footnote references in the body of text can be found at the bottom of the page it was quoted from:
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/charles_finney_vs_westminster_confession.shtml


Finney is the guy responsible for popularizing the 'altar call' in church evangelism, creating generations of people who think they are saved because they have been emotionally coerced into repeating a magic prayer or performing some self-induced behavior modification. that is in fact, Finney's gospel: self-achieved behavior modification, having nothing to do with a Spirit that draws men to God or who works in them to renew them, but purely the power of an orator to convince them to perform a few rituals and thenceforth become 'nice people' who do various 'works' out of coercion.

In Scripture

This Calvinistic conviction about the importance of head and heart religion is of course derived from the Scriptures. One place where we can see that clearly is in Psalm 45, where we are told that the mission of God’s great king is this: “In your majesty ride forth victoriously in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness” (v. 4.) These three elements – truth, humility and righteousness – summarize the interdependence of orthodoxy and vitality in Biblical and Reformed religion.

Psalm 45 is a celebration of God’s great and blessed king. This king is blessed in his blameless character (vs. 2,7,8). He is the one who always loves the good and hates the evil. This king is blessed in his bountiful conquest (vs. 3-6,16). He will be victorious over all his enemies in God’s cause. And he is blessed in his beautiful consort (vs. 9-15). He finds joy, beauty and purity in his bride.

The picture of this king is an ideal of what kingship should be. No actual king in Israel ever fully measured up to this ideal. But the psalm celebrates how the king should fulfill the vision of the true and faithful king described in Deuteronomy 17:18-20, “When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees and not consider himself better than his brothers and turn from the law to the right or to the left.”

Here in Deuteronomy – as in Psalm 45 – the king exalts truth, humility and righteousness. The king upholds the truth of God’s word, which he has ever with him and meditates on every day. He expresses the humility of one who does not exalt himself above his brothers, but identifies with them. He lives out the righteousness of God’s law, deviating neither to the right nor to the left.




First published in Evangelium, Vol. 3, Issue 5

© Westminster Seminary California All rights reserved