Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Shekinahglory]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Hi I will probably catch hell for this. We are told that Law is what allows sin to become utterly sinful. We have seen this in our children. Don’t touch or don’t do and the young child can’t touch or do fast enough.. what does it mean the Law has been fulfilled.

 

[PS]

No, NO, No, I don't go there anymore, I don't suggest anyone else go there because ALL you are allowed to say is Salvation is a gift. If you talk about anything else it is taking away from "not by works" so all you do is get in trouble and fights, and then you feel like you are causing people to sin with the "unChristlike" dissention, strife, wrangling, I leave it at that for the love of God. So, count me out, it is far to restrictive.

You should go there. Based on what you say, they are right and you are wrong. Salvation IS a gift, we are NOT saved by works.

 

[PS]

in all of it's 106,000 posts, does anyone say that we should "do no works" ?
does anyone in any of the posts argue that we should break God's commandments?

Works are the EVIDENCE OF SALVATION, not the cause.

 

[NayborBear]

Yes. We are given specific instructions to follow in order to not become sick again.

But legalists and judaizers don't get it. Why don't they? Because they lack faith.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Mmm... No. If it were as you say and it is up to us to depart from Christ and His Spirit and go back to working at the law in order to "strengthen" our "immune system" SOMEONE would have said it. Some Apostle or the Lord Himself would have said those words.

Paul is talking to Christians here. People who have come to Christ. And then attempted to do what YOU are telling other Christians to do;

Galatians 3:10-12
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


How come you guys don't understand what this is saying???

If you went to the Author (master Physician) how is it you don't know the Process of being Healed and staying Healed?

If it was by going back to the law Why would there have been so MUCH description on why the LAW has no POWER to heal anyone or to keep anyone from sin?

It is because it is a construct that you have made up in your own imagination from a lack of faith. Right? Look at the weak brother and the strong brother. Its not the strong brother that follows his understanding of the law. Its the weak brother.

Something to think about, maybe.

It seems apparent that there is/are "such critter/s" as blind faithers as well Grandpa.
Then? There is such a "critter" (if you will), known as (a) healing faith!
Which is "above and beyond" that which in these last days, is referred to as (a) "Saving faith!"
Which, not only heals the heart/soul/mind and spirit? This "healing" faith, also heals our flesh!
This "healing faith" is much harder in attaining then (a) "saving faith." Which is after all? What Grandpa?
A GIFT!
Because, Grandpa, you HAVE to WORK IT! That takes what Grandpa? EFFORT/S!

Lemme tell ya! There's a whole lot that "walks like a duck, and talks like a duck." That AIN'T NO DUCK!
True enough, that love, and bringing a soul to Christ COVERS a lotta sin!
Key word in that last sentence is "lotta!" Not EVERY!
Takes a whole frigging BOAT LOAD of "testing the spirits", in keeping, and then PREVENTING "THEM", that "creep in unawares!" Not only within an "assembly" of believers. But, ALSO within one's own self!

Do you "think" Jesus abolished "proving?" Although, I believe it's known as "tempted" in the N.T. And our God is "loving" enough, to even leave one "a way out!" Meaning what Grandpa? Meaning this person is not YET "perfected/mature/STRONG" enough, in the "PROVING!"
Does this mean, after having "failed" in "a proof", this person is NOT saved? CERTAINLY NOT!
Yet? It COULD be indicative, that this person still needs to "visit the sorcerers" "pharmacia" "pharmacist", or "walgreens."

Socially? I have every "known" "malady" known to the "psychiatric/sociological" community! Some? They haven't even "invented" names for yet!
Something for you to consider, if you wish Grandpa. If you wish to.....
Doesn't that sound, jez a MITE "peculiar?"

 

[NayborBear]

Just because you say it and want it to be true, it isn't. Just because you are afraid to take the first steps on your own doesn't make those who are "working" bad, though you must continue to try and make them feel that way. That OSASed doctrine is just as bad as that rapsure one. They both make the Word of God void. But that is the whole point of the adversary isn't it?

Maybe someday when you have become confident in the saving nature of the Lord, and that it is a place to START from and it will not leave you if you do not leave it, you will be able to step forward, without the fear of losing that, as we all have. We all started right where you are. You just can't seem to move forward past it. Let go of your fear. It is so very sad. God would love to see you progressing in faith. He came and took all the fear of bondage and death away so you could feel free and easy in your walk with and to Him. Safe, protected, knowing His hand is constantly reaching out to guide you and also to pick you up when you stumble and fall. EVEN while we are yet sinners HE STILL LOVES US. He just wants us to try. He sent Christ to do "works" . Can you imagine if Christ would have said "I'll just rest instead, God can do it"? He had to be a "DOER". We need to be "DOERS" OR what are we good for?

Are you beginning to "see" the "debate games" these ones are playing here?
Sadly, much to their own demise, and delusion.
Can't you "see" THEIR "talking point", is ONLY concerning saved by grace through faith!
They WON'T drift from that! NEVER!
Spiritually? They are "deader then a hammer!"
Are these ones "playing the strawman" saved?
DEBATABLE!
They can only "see" flesh, because ALL they are IS flesh!

They'll NEVER admit it, but, they have got "God in a box!"

You, I, and others know God is MUCH larger "then the Bible"

That God is STILL WRITING "HIS-Story!"

Yet? When "confronted" with it?

Where do they go?

BACK to their "God in a box", with over 2,000 years of traditions of mans interpretations to back them up!

They can't even see the Kingdom of God!

Entering? "Saved by grace through faith!"

Inheriting? "Save by grace through faith!"

Love? Well, that covers EVERY SIN!

EVEN THE SIN OF THOSE THAT "CREEP IN UNAWARES" within THEMSELVES! Which CAUSES them to sin CONTINUALLY!

"Saved by grace through faith!"

Because their "blind faith" has "suckered them" into blind love!

But, they ain't suckered! No! Not "them!" They are "saved by grace through faith!"

The "being wise as a serpent", has taken their innocencey? (the root) and has taken them!

IOW? They no "longer have the root!" The ROOT has THEM!

Saved by grace through faith?

DEBATABLE!

 

[SimpleGardner]

Hi I will probably catch hell for this. We are told that Law is what allows sin to become utterly sinful. We have seen this in our children. Don’t touch or don’t do and the young child can’t touch or do fast enough.. what does it mean the Law has been fulfilled.

I think everything has a contrast. Go into a dirty, messy room of one child then go into clean, tidy room of another child and then revisit the dirty, messy room and it looks much worse compared to..."Sin/Evil" when seen in the light of "Righteousness/Goodness" which the law illuminates, looks utterly sinful.

To answer your question; "what does it mean the Law has been fulfilled." If this is what you are asking, you will get an ear full that pushes the idea that to “fulfill the Law” means “to bring it to an end.” This is the point of contention.

What the scripture supports as a whole is quite the opposite. As soon as someone mentions the "Commandments of God" it is like they used a four letter word!

Yes, I said opposite. What Jesus/Yahshua actually said is;

Mat 5:17 NIV "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Yahshua made it clear that the Pharisees had corrupted the Torah by their "traditions". Matt 15:6 In fact all ten commandments have been subverted by the "Traditions of the Fathers" or Talmud.

This is why Yahshua said; I am not here to abolish the Torah, but to "fulfill it" which was and is a Jewish idiom which means to "Properly Interpret" the Torah so that it might again be obeyed.

This was His intended meaning of the words "fulfill it" otherwise why would he preface them with "I have not come to abolish them"

Think about it; who hates the Laws of God the most? If you said the adversary you are right. So when you hear any words like "Surely He didn't say.." or "the Laws are GONE!" hear the sentiment echoing down through the ages. God established ORDER with His instructions for man and it is His intention as long as Heaven and Earth exist, His Torah will! Now there are many other questions regarding the satisfying the Blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins that we should understand and the anointing of the Holy Spirit which puts a desire to keep Gods Laws on our hearts.

SG

 

[SimpleGardner]

Hi I will probably catch hell for this. We are told that Law is what allows sin to become utterly sinful. We have seen this in our children. Don’t touch or don’t do and the young child can’t touch or do fast enough.. what does it mean the Law has been fulfilled.

I meant to say welcome to the forum. Been here a few months now myself.

You can pick your poison here, but trust the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.

SG

 

[Grandpa]

But Hebrews says rest has to do with the faith in one's heart and works of obedience or disobedience, doesn't it? These two things are always placed together when talking about rest.


Hebrews 3:12-19

12 Take heed, brothers, lest ever there will be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, into falling away from the living God.

- belief is found in heart
- falling away is an action


13 But encourage one another every day, while it is called today, so that not one of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

A person has to turn away from abiding in Christ, from rest in Christ, in order to look back to the law and start working at that.

Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


That evil heart of unbelief is turning away from Christ and going back to work at the law. Christ is the One who produces fruit of obedience in our lives. This Fruit fulfills the 10 commandments.

Your work and carnal understanding of the law is dirty rags before God.


SO as you work at the law of sin (the 10 commandments) which only has the power to show your sin constantly and no power to heal you from your fallen condition, you become hardened to your sin. You probably don't even recognize it as sin any longer. And your sin causes you to feel separated from Christ.


But when you trust in Christ and abide in Christ you are beholding Righteousness. You grow in Grace and righteousness and the blessing of the Lord.

There is basically no down side to abiding in Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

It seems apparent that there is/are "such critter/s" as blind faithers as well Grandpa.
Then? There is such a "critter" (if you will), known as (a) healing faith!
Which is "above and beyond" that which in these last days, is referred to as (a) "Saving faith!"
Which, not only heals the heart/soul/mind and spirit? This "healing" faith, also heals our flesh!
This "healing faith" is much harder in attaining then (a) "saving faith." Which is after all? What Grandpa?
A GIFT!
Because, Grandpa, you HAVE to WORK IT! That takes what Grandpa? EFFORT/S!

Lemme tell ya! There's a whole lot that "walks like a duck, and talks like a duck." That AIN'T NO DUCK!
True enough, that love, and bringing a soul to Christ COVERS a lotta sin!
Key word in that last sentence is "lotta!" Not EVERY!
Takes a whole frigging BOAT LOAD of "testing the spirits", in keeping, and then PREVENTING "THEM", that "creep in unawares!" Not only within an "assembly" of believers. But, ALSO within one's own self!

Do you "think" Jesus abolished "proving?" Although, I believe it's known as "tempted" in the N.T. And our God is "loving" enough, to even leave one "a way out!" Meaning what Grandpa? Meaning this person is not YET "perfected/mature/STRONG" enough, in the "PROVING!"
Does this mean, after having "failed" in "a proof", this person is NOT saved? CERTAINLY NOT!
Yet? It COULD be indicative, that this person still needs to "visit the sorcerers" "pharmacia" "pharmacist", or "walgreens."

Socially? I have every "known" "malady" known to the "psychiatric/sociological" community! Some? They haven't even "invented" names for yet!
Something for you to consider, if you wish Grandpa. If you wish to.....
Doesn't that sound, jez a MITE "peculiar?"

It DOES take a lot of effort in proving that you can't do it.

You can't heal your mind.

You can't heal your heart.

Only Christ can do that. And you have to come to Him so He can do His Work and you can become His Workmanship.


You are going to come up with every excuse in the book ( the self-help book) on why you have to do this and why you have to do that and how that is what will cause your change.

But its in coming to Christ that we are changed. And I think you know that.

Its in Christ where our blessing is located.

Its in Christ where our healing is located.


And who doesn't need more blessing and more healing every day?

 

[Grandpa]

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I mean, it's literally right there.

What did the living God ordain beforehand that we should walk in?

...the answer will be the "good works" Paul is referring to.

----

Ordain -

Definition: order or decree (something) officially.

synonyms: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay down, set down, establish, fix, enact, legislate, dictate, prescribe, pronounce

Example sentence: "it was ordained that anyone hunting in the forest without permission was to pay a fine"

----

Notice that I haven't injected any personal interpretation. I've simply posted a passage from Paul, the commonly accepted definition and synonyms of one word, and a question.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How do you keep missing that most necessary part?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ok. Following along so far? When we are His Workmanship we abide in Him and He in us and we bring forth MUCH fruit.

What fruit?

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is WHERE the good works come from. This is where our obedience comes from. This is where our blessing comes from.

From Christ.

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


I don't see how this could be any more clear.

 

[Marcelo]

==================================================================
Christ 'plainly said, 'If you Love Me, KEEP My Commandments' - if one takes the 'position' that
ONE SCRIPTURE (NEGATES) the other, then, there is COMPLETE CONFUSION, and,
'God is NOT the Author of confusion' - but 'who is the author of confusion'???

Paul is hard to 'understand', but Christ's Words are the very (foundation).
Paul's words are 'always' in 'agreement with Christ's', and they MUST be interpreted as such,
or else, you have an incorrect interpretation...

God is not a god of confusion, but the majority of theologians are.

Jesus taught obedience to the Law of Moses. When the young rich ruler asked Him "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?", Jesus answered: "Keep the commandments". To the man cured of leprosy He said: "Show yourself to the priest and offer sacrifices". The Lord taught obedience to the scribes and Pharisees; He said just a few would be saved; He said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone rich to enter Heaven; "if you look lustfully at someone other than your spouse you have already committed adultery" (you'll be counted as an adulterer and therefore will not be saved); etc.

Paul's teachings are completely different; see it for yourself. Theologians who say that Jesus and Paul preached the exact same thing can be compared to a zoo manager who -- looking at a giraffe and and elephant -- says: "These two animals are identical". And people believe him just because he is someone in authority.

 

[DeighAnn]

You should go there. Based on what you say, they are right and you are wrong. Salvation IS a gift, we are NOT saved by works.

I am only replying so your statement does not stand alone as an indictment of MY ACTUAL beliefs and not as YOU erroneous (AGAIN) stated them to be once again. SALVATION IS A GIFT, WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS, AND I HAVE NEVER STATED ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY.

I pray to the Lord God above that all of the these things that are intentionally said to promote the "doctrine of men" and are deceptive in their presentation, will be brought out into the light of truth on that great day of Judgment.

 

[DeighAnn]

It seems apparent that there is/are "such critter/s" as blind faithers as well Grandpa.
Then? There is such a "critter" (if you will), known as (a) healing faith!
Which is "above and beyond" that which in these last days, is referred to as (a) "Saving faith!"
Which, not only heals the heart/soul/mind and spirit? This "healing" faith, also heals our flesh!
This "healing faith" is much harder in attaining then (a) "saving faith." Which is after all? What Grandpa?
A GIFT!
Because, Grandpa, you HAVE to WORK IT! That takes what Grandpa? EFFORT/S!

Lemme tell ya! There's a whole lot that "walks like a duck, and talks like a duck." That AIN'T NO DUCK!
True enough, that love, and bringing a soul to Christ COVERS a lotta sin!
Key word in that last sentence is "lotta!" Not EVERY!
Takes a whole frigging BOAT LOAD of "testing the spirits", in keeping, and then PREVENTING "THEM", that "creep in unawares!" Not only within an "assembly" of believers. But, ALSO within one's own self!

Do you "think" Jesus abolished "proving?" Although, I believe it's known as "tempted" in the N.T. And our God is "loving" enough, to even leave one "a way out!" Meaning what Grandpa? Meaning this person is not YET "perfected/mature/STRONG" enough, in the "PROVING!"
Does this mean, after having "failed" in "a proof", this person is NOT saved? CERTAINLY NOT!
Yet? It COULD be indicative, that this person still needs to "visit the sorcerers" "pharmacia" "pharmacist", or "walgreens."

Socially? I have every "known" "malady" known to the "psychiatric/sociological" community! Some? They haven't even "invented" names for yet!
Something for you to consider, if you wish Grandpa. If you wish to.....
Doesn't that sound, jez a MITE "peculiar?"

I just can't wait to meet you.

 

[Yahshua]

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How do you keep missing that most necessary part?

But it says CreatED. Past tense.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is what Christ meant when he said "it is finished". The work in (re)CREATING US is finished. We are not "being created into new creatures", we are now "new creatures" by faith. Born anew. We are being sanctified now, not still being created now.

A new baby is born through blood. A baby that's born isn't still being created. That part "is finished". They are the workmanship of their parents.

Next is their growth. Their standing up. Their walking. Their maturing. All their effort, under the guidance and care of their parents.

We ARE NOW his workmanship, created in Christ, to do good works. Works which were established beforehand that we should (not will, but should; we're required to) walk in.

In other words, Christ created kids; siblings to do what he did when he was first here in the flesh. To obey the living God. That's why they were created.

The first Adam disobeyed the living God. He then created children like himself, doing what he did.

The second Adam obeyed the living God. He then created children like himself, to do what He did.

Revelation 3:21
"He that overcomes, will I grant to sit with me on my throne as I overcame and sat on my father's throne."

 

[posthuman]

Hi I will probably catch hell for this. We are told that Law is what allows sin to become utterly sinful. We have seen this in our children. Don’t touch or don’t do and the young child can’t touch or do fast enough.. what does it mean the Law has been fulfilled.

A child will already be touching and doing those things without a law against them.
We covet and we lie and we hate and lust before anyone ever teaches us a commandment not to do those things. A child is already covetous and vain before they even learn to speak so they can learn what coveting is and them be commanded not to. The law doesn't 'cause sin' by existing, that's not how the law makes sin more sinful. Sin is already present, but it becomes more sinful when not only is it unrighteousness but it is also transgression. Likewise sin doesn't cease to exist by virtue of a law being rescinded.

Jesus tells us lusting in our hearts is adultery, for example. The law against adultery only concerns the body, but sin and righteousness are in the heart. If the heart is pure it needs no law to be added to purify it, but if the heart is wicked no law will purify it.

 

[PS]

I am only replying so your statement does not stand alone as an indictment of MY ACTUAL beliefs and not as YOU erroneous (AGAIN) stated them to be once again. SALVATION IS A GIFT, WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS, AND I HAVE NEVER STATED ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY.

I pray to the Lord God above that all of the these things that are intentionally said to promote the "doctrine of men" and are deceptive in their presentation, will be brought out into the light of truth on that great day of Judgment.

So you are saying if you do good works you will receive the gift of salvation?

 

[DeighAnn]

Are you beginning to "see" the "debate games" these ones are playing here?
Sadly, much to their own demise, and delusion.
Can't you "see" THEIR "talking point", is ONLY concerning saved by grace through faith!
They WON'T drift from that! NEVER!
Spiritually? They are "deader then a hammer!"
Are these ones "playing the strawman" saved?
DEBATABLE!
They can only "see" flesh, because ALL they are IS flesh!

They'll NEVER admit it, but, they have got "God in a box!"

You, I, and others know God is MUCH larger "then the Bible"

That God is STILL WRITING "HIS-Story!"

Yet? When "confronted" with it?

Where do they go?

BACK to their "God in a box", with over 2,000 years of traditions of mans interpretations to back them up!

They can't even see the Kingdom of God!

Entering? "Saved by grace through faith!"

Inheriting? "Save by grace through faith!"

Love? Well, that covers EVERY SIN!

EVEN THE SIN OF THOSE THAT "CREEP IN UNAWARES" within THEMSELVES! Which CAUSES them to sin CONTINUALLY!

"Saved by grace through faith!"

Because their "blind faith" has "suckered them" into blind love!

But, they ain't suckered! No! Not "them!" They are "saved by grace through faith!"

The "being wise as a serpent", has taken their innocencey? (the root) and has taken them!

IOW? They no "longer have the root!" The ROOT has THEM!

Saved by grace through faith?

DEBATABLE!

Yes, but I believe that is why our input is necessary. It seems not to much different than the "scales" placed on the eyes of Paul by God only these are placed by the doctrine of men or ??

 

[DeighAnn]

So you are saying if you do good works you will receive the gift of salvation?

HOW COULD I RECEIVE THE GIFT OF SALVATION BY DOING GOOD WORKS????

WHEN I ALREADY RECEIVED IT (Salvation was a gift RECEIVED when I FIRST came to the Lord)

BEFORE I EVER DID A WORK???

Don't you see, it is that DOCTRINE OF MEN, THAT makes you THINK things that are IMPOSSIBLE, are possible.

The gift of salvation comes FIRST. You DONT work for it after. That makes no logical sense.

The only way it would ever be "manipulated", to be twisted into making sense, would be to support a false doctrine.

GOD DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. God is not the author of confusion.

Gift first, works come after.

 

[PS]

But it says CreatED. Past tense.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is what Christ meant when he said "it is finished". The work in (re)CREATING US is finished. We are not "being created into new creatures", we are now "new creatures" by faith. Born anew. We are being sanctified now, not still being created now.

A new baby is born through blood. A baby that's born isn't still being created. That part "is finished". They are the workmanship of their parents.

Next is their growth. Their standing up. Their walking. Their maturing. All their effort, under the guidance and care of their parents.

We ARE NOW his workmanship, created in Christ, to do good works. Works which were established beforehand that we should (not will, but should; we're required to) walk in.

In other words, Christ created kids; siblings to do what he did when he was first here in the flesh. To obey the living God. That's why they were created.

The first Adam disobeyed the living God. He then created children like himself, doing what he did.

The second Adam obeyed the living God. He then created children like himself, to do what He did.

Revelation 3:21
"He that overcomes, will I grant to sit with me on my throne as I overcame and sat on my father's throne."

Read the preceding verses
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[PS]

HOW COULD I RECEIVE THE GIFT OF SALVATION BY DOING GOOD WORKS????

WHEN I ALREADY RECEIVED IT (Salvation was a gift RECEIVED when I FIRST came to the Lord)

BEFORE I EVER DID A WORK???

Don't you see, it is that DOCTRINE OF MEN, THAT makes you THINK things that are IMPOSSIBLE, are possible.

The gift of salvation comes FIRST. You DONT work for it after. That makes no logical sense.

The only way it would ever be "manipulated", to be twisted into making sense, would be to support a false doctrine.

GOD DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. God is not the author of confusion.

Gift first, works come after.

So when and how do you think you were saved?