Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
Hi, brother SG!

Paul said:

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Much to my regret, I am not able to agree completely with you.

You once said that you don't need a list of mitzvot to be kept because you are guided by the Holy Spirit. But this is what Christianity is all about: Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. So, if you are guided by the Spirit you don't need a list of effective ordinances and don't need to teach anyone to keep the Law of Moses. The Law was made for the Hebrews and has already fulfilled its purpose. We are now under the Dispensation of Grace.
Good morning my good spirited friend. Quick question...
What is Grace?

If we would consider the Hebrew and Greek words translated Grace what would we see?
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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God does not ride round the skies in a wheelchair with wings on it.
Did you even read the text you posted. Please show me within the text you posted where it mentions God riding around in anything. The bulk of the text is explaining the appearance of some type of Angelic being.
Our GOD the Lord of Heaven is not even mentioned until the Last verses you quoted.

And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
(Eze 1:25-28 KJV)
And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day. For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD. And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
(Eze 2:1-6 KJV)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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But it says CreatED. Past tense.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is what Christ meant when he said "it is finished". The work in (re)CREATING US is finished. We are not "being created into new creatures", we are now "new creatures" by faith. Born anew. We are being sanctified now, not still being created now.

A new baby is born through blood. A baby that's born isn't still being created. That part "is finished". They are the workmanship of their parents.

Next is their growth. Their standing up. Their walking. Their maturing. All their effort, under the guidance and care of their parents.

We ARE NOW his workmanship, created in Christ, to do good works. Works which were established beforehand that we should (not will, but should; we're required to) walk in.

In other words, Christ created kids; siblings to do what he did when he was first here in the flesh. To obey the living God. That's why they were created.

The first Adam disobeyed the living God. He then created children like himself, doing what he did.

The second Adam obeyed the living God. He then created children like himself, to do what He did.

Revelation 3:21
"He that overcomes, will I grant to sit with me on my throne as I overcame and sat on my father's throne."
The work in creating us is ONLY finished when we are born again.

Not born again. Not His Workmanship. Not created in Christ.


Once born again you have become His Workmanship and you were created in Christ.


What is meant by 'It is finished' is the work of the Fulfilling the Law (Torah) and making the way to Salvation is Done.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


You have way oversimplified what the first Adam and second Adam have accomplished for mankind and then you have drawn a semi-mistaken conclusion from that oversimplification.

The first Adam caused mankind to live by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

The second Adam causes mankind to walk by the Spirit and crucify those things of the flesh.


But this doesn't happen automatically. A person has to be born again first. A person has to become His Workmanship first. A person has to be created in Christ first. A person has to come to Christ and Receive Rest first.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Nevermind the fact that the one you claim is your Savior was a Jew, or that the elders whose words you frequently cite were from Jews...you say Jew like it's a derogatory term.

You wouldn't be doing that would you?
Only when they try to bring their defunct religion with them. In that way it IS a derogatory term.

Otherwise, if they were to Follow our Saviour who was a Jew and those elders that we cite that were Jews, they would Be Christians just like us.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
It DOES take a lot of effort in proving that you can't do it.

You can't heal your mind.

You can't heal your heart.

Only Christ can do that. And you have to come to Him so He can do His Work and you can become His Workmanship.


You are going to come up with every excuse in the book ( the self-help book) on why you have to do this and why you have to do that and how that is what will cause your change.

But its in coming to Christ that we are changed. And I think you know that.

Its in Christ where our blessing is located.

Its in Christ where our healing is located.


And who doesn't need more blessing and more healing every day?
Well? You are correct Grandpa!
What you and others, are so adamantly, sometimes vehemently arguing, which gives me, anyway, and others, it seems, the "impression" the Jesus Christ, who I think we can agree was sent "Preaching/Teaching the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light?"
IS The Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Light!
While it is TRUTH that NO ONE COMES (correctly/successfully) unto the Father, but BY "being confessed unto the Father?"
That which I see being posted? Are arguments against BEING CONFESSED, and Going "UNTO THE FATHER!"

Come TO CHRIST! Yeah Grandpa? I get THAT! I GOT that! Would my declaration saying JESUS IS LORD!, Aid you in anyway? Or, "I CONFESS Jesus Christ is come in flesh!"

It was said that "the Government shall be on His shoulders." See what this is saying? Jesus CARRIES "the Government!" What it is NOT saying, is Jesus IS THE GOVERNMENT!

What the rest Isaiah is saying concerning the coming Messiah: His "NAME" shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
These are all ATTRIBUTES "GIVEN" Jesus! Meaning they are IN Jesus! And shall be FOREVER!

And all these "attributes", inasmuch as He was crucified, for our sakes? Even God, thought it not "robbery" that He should be called God? And, yea, even now, still sits BESIDE His Father AT the Father's throne? As such the only begotten Son SHOULD?
In ALL THESE GLORIOUS THINGS, THAT JESUS IS?
Jesus IS NOT "The Father!"


In my posts and arguments? I am not saying "Come to the Father!"
What I am in the hopes of doing, by my posts and arguments?
Is testifying in a baring witness, that which happens when one does.

Jesus even flat out stated the His Father is GREATER then He Himself is.
The Father is even GREATER then His "gift" of salvation by grace through faith!
And yes! The Father is even GREATER then the "GIFT" of the Holy Spirit!


In putting Jesus GREATER then all the Father, and the Fathers gifts does?
Quite frankly stating that "One does not need the Father!"
Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Is WELL ENOUGH!
And, you think, this does not make for one PO'd Papa?
Guess again!






 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
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Well? You are correct Grandpa!
What you and others, are so adamantly, sometimes vehemently arguing, which gives me, anyway, and others, it seems, the "impression" the Jesus Christ, who I think we can agree was sent "Preaching/Teaching the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light?"
IS The Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Light!
While it is TRUTH that NO ONE COMES (correctly/successfully) unto the Father, but BY "being confessed unto the Father?"
That which I see being posted? Are arguments against BEING CONFESSED, and Going "UNTO THE FATHER!"

Come TO CHRIST! Yeah Grandpa? I get THAT! I GOT that! Would my declaration saying JESUS IS LORD!, Aid you in anyway? Or, "I CONFESS Jesus Christ is come in flesh!"

It was said that "the Government shall be on His shoulders." See what this is saying? Jesus CARRIES "the Government!" What it is NOT saying, is Jesus IS THE GOVERNMENT!

What the rest Isaiah is saying concerning the coming Messiah: His "NAME" shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
These are all ATTRIBUTES "GIVEN" Jesus! Meaning they are IN Jesus! And shall be FOREVER!

And all these "attributes", inasmuch as He was crucified, for our sakes? Even God, thought it not "robbery" that He should be called God? And, yea, even now, still sits BESIDE His Father AT the Father's throne? As such the only begotten Son SHOULD?
In ALL THESE GLORIOUS THINGS, THAT JESUS IS?
Jesus IS NOT "The Father!"


In my posts and arguments? I am not saying "Come to the Father!"
What I am in the hopes of doing, by my posts and arguments?
Is testifying in a baring witness, that which happens when one does.

Jesus even flat out stated the His Father is GREATER then He Himself is.
The Father is even GREATER then His "gift" of salvation by grace through faith!
And yes! The Father is even GREATER then the "GIFT" of the Holy Spirit!


In putting Jesus GREATER then all the Father, and the Fathers gifts does?
Quite frankly stating that "One does not need the Father!"
Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Is WELL ENOUGH!
And, you think, this does not make for one PO'd Papa?
Guess again!







As I started to read your reply, I thought, thank God Grandpa is so blind, it is so helpful to put everything into perspective and I am learning so much along the way. But you know where that led me? That would mean the ones calling us Judaizers and legalists are the ones currently blinded by God and are of Judah so they can't see and they are truly judging themselves with every judgment pronounced upon us, while we are coming to knowledge of the kingdom of God, as whomsoever would. So my questions are, many. But for right now, those who are currently blinded, will they possibly be the 144,000 that come back to God, when the Holy Spirit speaks through Gods Elect during the millennium in your opinion?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Only when they try to bring their defunct religion with them. In that way it IS a derogatory term.

Otherwise, if they were to Follow our Saviour who was a Jew and those elders that we cite that were Jews, they would Be Christians just like us.
I would state "defunct" is describing the religion and not the people.
 
Aug 17, 2019
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Every servant knows that it is their duty to obey their master and not their own will.

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23

“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:45-46
How do you keep missing that most necessary part?

"we are his workmanship"

...created IN Christ Jesus unto good works...

Who was created in Christ Jesus unto good works?

...by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
...built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. Ephesians 2:11-20

The prophets and the apostles are workers and servants of God, working not for their own salvation but for our sake and for building up the body of Christ.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things. 1 Peter 1:10-12

...I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.” John 4:34-38

As servants of God, these people worked according to the instructions, commandments and laws of God which are all His words.

"I don't see how this could be any more clear"

But this is much clearer...

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—Romans 15:18
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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The prophesy given to Ezekiel by the I AM was correct in every way. This was a nation that rebelled against God (Ezekiel 2:3) even killing the Lords prophets (Luke 13:34) and following false gods. Two thousand and more years later nothing has changed. People still walk in their ancestors footsteps following the god of their forefathers and only giving lip service to the true God, unable to believe, like their ancestors it was Ezekiel's God “who came down from heavens glory, to give life unto the world.” (John 6:33)
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
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The "Law" or the Ten Commandments were written in stone so that it would be everlasting.

However, Moses put the other "laws" in the side of the Ark (not in it) on how to live in that time, meaning sacrifices, penalties, actual ways to behave and live at that time including very exhaustive rules on what to eat, etc.

The Law still stands that is written in stone. Jesus said not one "jot or tittle" of the Law is done away with (in fact it is written on tablets of the heart now so no man is without excuse as no matter who we are, every person knows it is wrong in their heart to steal, lie, steal etc).

The laws in the side of the arc were done away with and no more sacrifices are required as Jesus paid for all sacrifices (God actually said he was sick of them) as no amount of animals slaughtered could pay for sin anyway and now we have a New Testament. Jesus sacrificed himself so we do not have to do this anymore. The "LAW" still stands and I think God wrote them on stone to show how they stand forever.

Don't forget the Old Testament was a shadow of things to come. Moses broke the first tablets and they were written again. I think God breaks our hearts if they become hard and then the "law is written on tables of flesh" meaning that they Law is written in our heart (so no man is without excuse). We all know that the Ten Commandments are a good way to live whoever you are, and it shouldn't be hard really not to steal, murder lie etc. That is how I see it. I think it is not made plain to see as you are supposed to search out the truth and "dig" for it like gold. You don't just find gold on the street (you have to dig for it)
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
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Yes of course I realise that my Brother. But they were under the Law of Death as they had no sacrifice for sin? Will not the ministry of the Spirit be more glorious?

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
 

Heyjude

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Sep 7, 2019
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Just adding to my last post, in which way was Jesus not correct when he said

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
Heaven and Earth have not passed away so which law do you think Jesus is referring to? The Law is supposed to now be written on our hearts so we know the difference between Good and Evil. Most people know the Ten Commandments actually make sense and if everyone lived by them, the World would actually be a lovely place. That doesn't mean we don't slip up sometimes, but we don't have to sacrifice cows, sheep or cattle. Jesus was the Lamb of Sacrifice once and for all.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Just adding to my last post, in which way was Jesus not correct when he said

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
Heaven and Earth have not passed away so which law do you think Jesus is referring to? The Law is supposed to now be written on our hearts so we know the difference between Good and Evil. Most people know the Ten Commandments actually make sense and if everyone lived by them, the World would actually be a lovely place. That doesn't mean we don't slip up sometimes, but we don't have to sacrifice cows, sheep or cattle. Jesus was the Lamb of Sacrifice once and for all.
Isn't funny how the blind leaders of the blind tell each other the same story over and over in order to JUSTIFY their work at the 10 commandments?

Just read 2 corinthians 3 and you can find out that the 10 commandments are the Ministry of Death and Condemnation.

Which we, who have come to Christ and received rest, are no longer under.
 

Heyjude

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Sep 7, 2019
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No you are not going to be unsaved for breaking the commandments as Jesus forgives. But that doesn't mean they are not a good way to follow. What's wrong with them? Do you think they are hard? I find the Sabbath one the hardest actually..... Yes we are all sinners and not one can keep them (we all break one sometimes) but mostly I think they are a good way of life and are not to be "thrown out on the scrapheap".

Which ones do you find hard to follow?
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
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Isn't funny how the blind leaders of the blind tell each other the same story over and over in order to JUSTIFY their work at the 10 commandments?

Just read 2 corinthians 3 and you can find out that the 10 commandments are the Ministry of Death and Condemnation.

Which we, who have come to Christ and received rest, are no longer under.
So when Jesus says this below, what LAW is he referring to do you think?

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
 
Aug 17, 2019
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Isn't funny how the blind leaders of the blind tell each other the same story over and over in order to JUSTIFY their work at the 10 commandments?

Just read 2 corinthians 3 and you can find out that the 10 commandments are the Ministry of Death and Condemnation.

Which we, who have come to Christ and received rest, are no longer under.
Since when have you been under the law that you no longer now?
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
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I know scriptures can contradict one another. But I don't know about you, but I remember the game "Simon says".
If Paul or Jesus were standing in front of you telling you two different things, which one are you going to believe? I wouldn't take a chance on that and no matter how confusing the scripture is sometimes, how do you know its not a test to see if you really "Follow the Leader". I would rather follow Jesus than anyone else but that's my view. Everyone else can listen to whom they will. But why take a chance?
 
May 1, 2019
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No you are not going to be unsaved for breaking the commandments as Jesus forgives. But that doesn't mean they are not a good way to follow. What's wrong with them? Do you think they are hard? I find the Sabbath one the hardest actually..... Yes we are all sinners and not one can keep them (we all break one sometimes) but mostly I think they are a good way of life and are not to be "thrown out on the scrapheap".

Which ones do you find hard to follow?

Greetings Heyjude,

It's a sad conversation when we have to stoop to allow those who push Grace to the point that obedience to Gods Laws for the Love of God is sinful!

Truthfully, Jesus does forgive, but He forgives the "repentant heart", the heart that grieves over infractions to His commands. But where does this repentance come from? It comes from a love of His laws and as a gift from Him for our transgression.

Our Heavenly Father's heart in the matter is recorded in the following verses, as well as by the entire scripture itself;

Eze 33:13 NIV If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

Deu 29:19-20 NIV When such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself and therefore thinks, "I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way." This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. (20) The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

SG