Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
Jesus referred to the two greatest commandments; love God with all your heart your soul your mind love your neighbor as yourself as the law of love. But he didn’t say these replaced “All the Law”, quite the opposite, He referred to these two laws as the proper motivation for keeping all the Laws in the OT!

There's two ways to keep the commandments written in the Old Testament.

The first one would be out of the fear of the curses that come to those who don't keep them.

The second one is when you keep the commandments out of love for your God and out of love for your neighbor, not out of a fear of the curses that come with them that's the law of love.

Paul refers to a “godly sorrow” and a “worldly sorrow”, the godly sorrow he refers to leads to repentance which leads to salvation the worldly sorrow leads to death so the godly sorrow would be the one where in your heart you have a desire to honor God and honor your neighbor because you love them, the worldly sorrow thinks to itself; “I better do what God says and I better do what is good for my neighbor or will just come back on me. Worldly sorrow doesn’t care about God or your neighbor, you just care about what happens to you.

Jesus made a point that the law says “Thou shalt not commit adultery”, but that if you kept yourself from physically going after your neighbors wife but still wanted to, then you broke the law “in your heart”. Sure you didn’t break the “Letter of the Law” by doing the act, but you did break “the Spirit of the Law” by wanting to! If you loved your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, your heart would be repulsed by the thought of lusting after your neighbors wife. The Spirit of the Law doesn’t want to break the Law for the sake of God and neighbor, the “letter” of the Law won’t break the law out of love for ones self. Can you see the difference?

Paul in 1 Cor 13 refers to all the “good” things a person can do right “mechanically”, but if the acts are missing the love of neighbor and God, then they are simply empty meaningless acts of selfishness.

Once a heart is converted from “self love” to a “Love for God and a love for neighbor as ones self”, that heart will search the Law out to see what pleases God, and then do those thing. The heart that is not yet converted is angered by those same Laws and looks for ways to negate them, or end run them.
Yes, excellent summary.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
693
113
You're dodging.

What is the source of your definition?

The definition that I provided was not "all disputes should be settled by peaceful means". It was "the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances, and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means." By truncating it, you've changed the meaning. The part that you excised is the part that makes your position untenable.
It came from here https://www.thefreedictionary.com/pacifist

Look, you are nit-picking and you are beginning to annoy me, I posted what Paul wrote and I posted from Christ's commandments in the Sermon on the Mount. I have had enough of your quarrelsome arguments for now, and the dog has been wanting a walk all this time.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,921
16,578
113
I don't hold to dispensationalism; I don't believe it is biblically sound. I also don't agree with your concept of pacifism.

Simple (though blunt) question: Assuming you have a daughter, would you stand by "peacefully" and watch her get beaten or raped? I doubt it. A true pacifist would. We as Christians are called to turn the other cheek when insulted, not necessarily when attacked. We can choose to refrain from defending ourselves and our loved ones, and are certainly called to refrain from using violence when presenting the gospel, but I don't see where Scripture teaches pacifism.
He is wrong about dispensationalism and pacifism also. As with so much stuff he believes. Amen, if he would stand and watch his daughter being raped. That explains alot.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,921
16,578
113
Jesus referred to the two greatest commandments; love God with all your heart your soul your mind love your neighbor as yourself as the law of love. But he didn’t say these replaced “All the Law”, quite the opposite, He referred to these two laws as the proper motivation for keeping all the Laws in the OT!

There's two ways to keep the commandments written in the Old Testament.

The first one would be out of the fear of the curses that come to those who don't keep them.

The second one is when you keep the commandments out of love for your God and out of love for your neighbor, not out of a fear of the curses that come with them that's the law of love.

Paul refers to a “godly sorrow” and a “worldly sorrow”, the godly sorrow he refers to leads to repentance which leads to salvation the worldly sorrow leads to death so the godly sorrow would be the one where in your heart you have a desire to honor God and honor your neighbor because you love them, the worldly sorrow thinks to itself; “I better do what God says and I better do what is good for my neighbor or will just come back on me. Worldly sorrow doesn’t care about God or your neighbor, you just care about what happens to you.

Jesus made a point that the law says “Thou shalt not commit adultery”, but that if you kept yourself from physically going after your neighbors wife but still wanted to, then you broke the law “in your heart”. Sure you didn’t break the “Letter of the Law” by doing the act, but you did break “the Spirit of the Law” by wanting to! If you loved your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, your heart would be repulsed by the thought of lusting after your neighbors wife. The Spirit of the Law doesn’t want to break the Law for the sake of God and neighbor, the “letter” of the Law won’t break the law out of love for ones self. Can you see the difference?

Paul in 1 Cor 13 refers to all the “good” things a person can do right “mechanically”, but if the acts are missing the love of neighbor and God, then they are simply empty meaningless acts of selfishness.

Once a heart is converted from “self love” to a “Love for God and a love for neighbor as ones self”, that heart will search the Law out to see what pleases God, and then do those thing. The heart that is not yet converted is angered by those same Laws and looks for ways to negate them, or end run them.
All of the law was given NOT to show us HOW to be righteous, but to show just how unrighteous, and far away from God we really are.

The law of love is used to show us HOW to not only life the law but the prophets.. As we focus on loving others (seeking after the spirit) and not focused on how good or bad we are. Or what we personally need to be doing (self focused)

Thats WHY the law was done away with, it was not given to show us how to live. It was given to show our tragic deep seeded alienation from God, and in doing so. Lead us to christ.
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
Poor poor PS. Little red X.. ha ha ha
One must note the spirit with which those who reject the Laws of God operate in. Note the disparaging, trivializing spirit in
eternally-gratefull's" words. Why such a lack of respect and dishonoring of others? These are markers of those who are lawless. Jesus Himself warned that love would grow cold in many due to "lawlessness";


Mat 24:12 NASB "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.


If you find yourself behaving in a "belittling spirit" fast and pray because this is not of God.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,921
16,578
113
One must note the spirit with which those who reject the Laws of God operate in. Note the disparaging, trivializing spirit in
eternally-gratefull's" words. Why such a lack of respect and dishonoring of others? These are markers of those who are lawless. Jesus Himself warned that love would grow cold in many due to "lawlessness";


Mat 24:12 NASB "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.


If you find yourself behaving in a "belittling spirit" fast and pray because this is not of God.
Who is rejecting the laws of God?

You better backtrack and re-read what I posted because I never said a thing about rejecting the laws of God.

People slandering others with half truths is getting real old.

You people need to learn to be better readers, and not assuming you know.


Gods laws stand today, You break them, they are sin. But if you think you are going to OBEY them by just following them out of some duty You better think again.

Gods law requires perfection. So unless you have reached that state, you my friend are a law breaker. And by definition, Cursed.
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
Who is rejecting the laws of God?

You better backtrack and re-read what I posted because I never said a thing about rejecting the laws of God.

People slandering others with half truths is getting real old.

You people need to learn to be better readers, and not assuming you know.

Gods laws stand today, You break them, they are sin. But if you think you are going to OBEY them by just following them out of some duty You better think again.

Gods law requires perfection. So unless you have reached that state, you my friend are a law breaker. And by definition, Cursed.
Why such a harsh spirit? You have anger issues too.

Why the belittling spirit too? You haven't addressed your lack of respect towards me, and others.

Where is this spirit coming from? That is the question you should be answering here.

Your logic and attitude vacillate too much. You would do well to fast and pray and get to the bottom of spirit you are operating under.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,729
2,669
113
Is God pleased by your work at the law or by Righteousness?

Is God pleased by your understanding of what He wants or by His Understanding of what He Wants?

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is not your work at the law that makes you righteous before God.

It is not your understanding of the law that is the cause of God being pleased.


The converted Heart knows that all the power in their conversion belongs to Christ and none resides in themselves. In other words, you weren't saved because of how good you were according to the law.

The converted Heart knows that it must abide in Christ where the Power of the Gospel Is and not in their understanding and work at the law.

Paul explains this over and over in most of his epistles. Where people are getting the idea that they must work at the law if they love God is coming from a worldly wisdom and not a Godly one.

Where people get the idea that Christians are lawless if they are not working at their understanding of the law comes from a worldly wisdom and not the wisdom that comes from abiding in Christ.


Which fruit of the spirit break the law? None.
Which fruit of the spirit are produced by your work at the law? None.

Which fruit of the spirit are the CAUSE of fulfilling the law? All.
Which fruit of the spirit are produced by abiding in Christ? All.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,729
2,669
113
Why such a harsh spirit? You have anger issues too.

Why the belittling spirit too? You haven't addressed your lack of respect towards me, and others.

Where is this spirit coming from? That is the question you should be answering here.

Your logic and attitude vacillate too much. You would do well to fast and pray and get to the bottom of spirit you are operating under.
The Lord Jesus came with a whip against people who were in His House of Worship who were doing the wrong thing inside of it.

Was this belittling to the money-changers? Was it a lack of respect? Where did that Spirit of Jesus come from?


I'm not saying that EG is Christ and you are a Pharisee but if we were to check boxes on who looks like what I think the scales would fall in that direction...
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
The Lord Jesus came with a whip against people who were in His House of Worship who were doing the wrong thing inside of it.

Was this belittling to the money-changers? Was it a lack of respect? Where did that Spirit of Jesus come from?


I'm not saying that EG is Christ and you are a Pharisee but if we were to check boxes on who looks like what I think the scales would fall in that direction...
Noted; You are backing up the spirit that EG is operating under.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,921
16,578
113
Why such a harsh spirit? You have anger issues too

Why the belittling spirit too? You haven't addressed your lack of respect towards me, and others.

Where is this spirit coming from? That is the question you should be answering here.

Your logic and attitude vacillate too much. You would do well to fast and pray and get to the bottom of spirit you are operating under.

You like accusing people? That does not really put you in very good light my friend. If you make a mistake confess it blame shifting it s not helpful

You lied and stated something that was not true and I called you out on it. You want to confess you were mistaken or continue accusing people?
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
You like accusing people? That does not really put you in very good light my friend. If you make a mistake confess it blame shifting it s not helpful

You lied and stated something that was not true and I called you out on it. You want to confess you were mistaken or continue accusing people?

Do you feel that it is unnecessary to call out bad behaviour? I called out yours because it is so agregious. Simply acknowlege what is plain to see in writing, repent and move on. This is for your benifit. To tolerate this is wrong on every level, social, spiritual...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
36,236
13,547
113
Is God pleased by your work at the law or by Righteousness?

It is not your work at the law that makes you righteous before God.

It is not your understanding of the law that is the cause of God being pleased.
:) And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? HOW DO WE ATTAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT FOR SALVATION, BUT TO BE BLESSED?

Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE SALTY? HOW DO WE STAY SALTY?

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. WHAT ARE GOOD WORKS?

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. HOW WAS THE LAW NOT DESTROYED?

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN NO WISE PASS?

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. WHAT IS A LEAST COMMANDMENT? WHAT IS A MOST COMMANDMENT?

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. HOW DO WE MAKE SURE OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCEEDS THE SCRIBES?
 

Sanctified1984

Junior Member
Oct 14, 2017
1
0
1
I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Love God and love others like you love yourself. In other words love people like Jesus did. He had compassion on sinners and didnt turn any away that came to him knowing they needed forgiveness. Following the law doesn't save me Jesus Christ with the only one that would have followed it perfectly. As a matter of fact if I think I'm going to enter Heaven based on my ability to follow the law I'm basically spitting in the face of Christ and his sacrifice. Not my righteousness but Christs
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Do you feel that it is unnecessary to call out bad behaviour? I called out yours because it is so agregious. Simply acknowlege what is plain to see in writing, repent and move on. This is for your benifit. To tolerate this is wrong on every level, social, spiritual...
I's been like this since I've been a member. Like lions on the Serengeti.
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
I's been like this since I've been a member. Like lions on the Serengeti.

The faceless nature of these forums emboldens people who lack compassion to simply be themselves. I make my share of misjudgements and when a brother, or sister calmly calls me out I am thankful.

Doesn't this kind of behavior seem to be ever present in the discussions of "The Law vs Grace"?

I have noted before that those who have backslidden family members, especially their children are almost driven to find justification for them in their fallen state or the burden of their loss would be too great for them to bear. Hence the drive to eradicate the move towards righteousness and elevate grace to the point where The Law is the enemy.

Thank you sincerely for your kindness.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
The faceless nature of these forums emboldens people who lack compassion to simply be themselves. I make my share of misjudgements and when a brother, or sister calmly calls me out I am thankful.

Doesn't this kind of behavior seem to be ever present in the discussions of "The Law vs Grace"?

I have noted before that those who have backslidden family members, especially their children are almost driven to find justification for them in their fallen state or the burden of their loss would be too great for them to bear. Hence the drive to eradicate the move towards righteousness and elevate grace to the point where The Law is the enemy.

Thank you sincerely for your kindness.
I've observed vicious attacks everywhere on the BDF. Some members have left, or don't reply anymore because of it which is sad, this forum has slowed down considerably since I've been here. Some members have written books on the Bible, therefore they defend their position as if their livelihood hangs in the balance. Some are actually preachers....But you're probably right it's the belief that the Laws of Almighty are still valid that draws the most fire. I don't mince words about that, where I stand ~Messiah said "do not think I've come to abolish the law..." and goes on to say fulfill or fill up or complete depending on how one wants to word it, but it sure don't mean abolish. Moses said The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

There seems to be a deliberate ignorance about why one would strive to be obedient, and over and over it's said "the law does not save you!" Duh, we know that, we know we are saved by grace, Messiah's bought us with His blood....and we say we love the law it reveals His character we want to be more like Him, etc...and on and on it goes. It's like the movie "Groundhog Day". There is so much to learn from obeying the law but that comes across as hate speech, to speak of those things. The bible says it is the carnal mind who will not obey. The real learning/transforming comes from doing the Word not just thinking about it.

Thanks for your studies, and your wisdom and kindness comes through in your posts.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,729
2,669
113
I've observed vicious attacks everywhere on the BDF. Some members have left, or don't reply anymore because of it which is sad, this forum has slowed down considerably since I've been here. Some members have written books on the Bible, therefore they defend their position as if their livelihood hangs in the balance. Some are actually preachers....But you're probably right it's the belief that the Laws of Almighty are still valid that draws the most fire. I don't mince words about that, where I stand ~Messiah said "do not think I've come to abolish the law..." and goes on to say fulfill or fill up or complete depending on how one wants to word it, but it sure don't mean abolish. Moses said The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

There seems to be a deliberate ignorance about why one would strive to be obedient, and over and over it's said "the law does not save you!" Duh, we know that, we know we are saved by grace, Messiah's bought us with His blood....and we say we love the law it reveals His character we want to be more like Him, etc...and on and on it goes. It's like the movie "Groundhog Day". There is so much to learn from obeying the law but that comes across as hate speech, to speak of those things. The bible says it is the carnal mind who will not obey. The real learning/transforming comes from doing the Word not just thinking about it.

Thanks for your studies, and your wisdom and kindness comes through in your posts.
Except that you, and those like you, are completely wrong about the law. And you don't know it.

The Law doesn't reveal Gods Character. It reveals your character.


If you strive to obey the law then you strive to no longer abide in Christ. You think you are going to become more like Christ by your understanding and work at the law? Men have already tried that for thousands of years and failed. Men know it and God Knows It. That's why a New Covenant needed to be made for us. Because men fail.

So if you try to implement portions of the Old Covenant, to be "more like Christ, for "obedience", or "out of love" then you necessarily reject the New Covenant.

Its very sad to claim to be Christian and then reject the very tenets of Christianity. I realize you do it out of ignorance but wouldn't you think the first few times you were shown maybe you would either start to understand or try to figure out what real Christians are teaching? Or is this stubborn refusal to learn the truth the very sign of the Pharisees that came before you? You know, the guys who thought they were righteous by their work at the law...