Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[lightbearer]

Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Hang is κρεμάννυμι in the Greek.
kremannumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to hang up, suspend
2) to be suspended, to hang
2a) used of one hanging on a cross
2b) used of the Law and the Prophets, they is summed up or hanging on two precepts

Love for God and our neighbor.

 

[Robertt]

. We as Christians are called to turn the other cheek when insulted, not necessarily when attacked.

Matthew 5:38-39 (KJV)
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


that doesnt say insulted, it says SLAPPED.

However it doesn't say what to do if someone else is attacked.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you feel that it is unnecessary to call out bad behaviour? I called out yours because it is so agregious. Simply acknowlege what is plain to see in writing, repent and move on. This is for your benifit. To tolerate this is wrong on every level, social, spiritual...

Whatever man,

You lied about me, and in reality those who believe like me, and I called you out on it. Either confess your sin or prove you just like every other lawyer that comes in here and loves to call everyone out. But refuses to acknowledge your own.

Believe it or not. People who are sinned against have wevery right to call out those who sin against them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I's been like this since I've been a member. Like lions on the Serengeti.

And it will be as long as these people come in here, Lie about others, and use the same strawman about these people believe this, they Hate God, they Hate his law. Etc etc.

If you want it to stop. WHy not join, and call them out also. Instead of just siding with them

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The faceless nature of these forums emboldens people who lack compassion to simply be themselves. I make my share of misjudgements and when a brother, or sister calmly calls me out I am thankful.

Doesn't this kind of behavior seem to be ever present in the discussions of "The Law vs Grace"?

I have noted before that those who have backslidden family members, especially their children are almost driven to find justification for them in their fallen state or the burden of their loss would be too great for them to bear. Hence the drive to eradicate the move towards righteousness and elevate grace to the point where The Law is the enemy.

Thank you sincerely for your kindness.

No what is serious problem is people like you who see’s someone post something about the law they disagree with, and come out and attack them as hating God, hating his law. And all the stuff you peoplelove to say to anyone who happens to think different than you

Instead of having a conversation with them, and trying to explain why you disagree with them. You attack them like you did earlier

And as long as you people come in and do this, You will continue to be called out for it. And continue to prove to the world how many people who claim to be gods people are people who talk the talk. But have no idea how to walk the walk.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Except that you, and those like you, are completely wrong about the law. And you don't know it.

The Law doesn't reveal Gods Character. It reveals your character.


If you strive to obey the law then you strive to no longer abide in Christ. You think you are going to become more like Christ by your understanding and work at the law? Men have already tried that for thousands of years and failed. Men know it and God Knows It. That's why a New Covenant needed to be made for us. Because men fail.

So if you try to implement portions of the Old Covenant, to be "more like Christ, for "obedience", or "out of love" then you necessarily reject the New Covenant.

Its very sad to claim to be Christian and then reject the very tenets of Christianity. I realize you do it out of ignorance but wouldn't you think the first few times you were shown maybe you would either start to understand or try to figure out what real Christians are teaching? Or is this stubborn refusal to learn the truth the very sign of the Pharisees that came before you? You know, the guys who thought they were righteous by their work at the law...

Amen, They claim to teach the law. But as paul said, they do not even know the law. Because of they truly knew it. They would not be saying the stuff they say. They would be trained by it. And realize how impossible it is to keep it. And turn to what Christ gave is, A much better way, instead of trying to live a burden the jews could not bear.

 

[NayborBear]

The faceless nature of these forums emboldens people who lack compassion to simply be themselves. I make my share of misjudgements and when a brother, or sister calmly calls me out I am thankful.

Doesn't this kind of behavior seem to be ever present in the discussions of "The Law vs Grace"?

I have noted before that those who have backslidden family members, especially their children are almost driven to find justification for them in their fallen state or the burden of their loss would be too great for them to bear. Hence the drive to eradicate the move towards righteousness and elevate grace to the point where The Law is the enemy.

Thank you sincerely for your kindness.

....And even more then that, sir! These people, who make no qualms concerning their blindness, and you may well be right concerning backslidden family members, yet, it is to these particular members themselves, I am referring to.
These who walk in darkness, yet display it like some badge of honor, daring all in knocking this chip off my shoulder!
And, when one tries in kindness, love and compassion, in showing them? IT'S WAR! That's when they start delving into their vanishing points! That's when they start word twisting, and changing definitions of the words they use in their very ambiguous arguments!
Revelation 13
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You could interchange this term "count the number of the beast", with Jesus' retort to the scribes and pharasee's, "TRADITIONS of man, which MAKES VOID the Word of God? And one would be more correct in correctly inferring so then not!

This verse has ZERO MEANING to people like this! THIS is the "chip" they so proudly strut around with on their shoulders, in their daring one to knock off! Whilst they perpetuate the "species!"
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In their defense? It's not that they aren't saved! But, it's more like they have been "carried over" into the next "thousand years/everlasting!" And shall be taught, that which they missed during this everlasting!
After which? satan shall be loosed (again), and which time we shall then see just how well and deeply, those teachings took to them!

But? Till then? Do not allow these ones to discourage you!
For, the difference? Is as different as "PRESERVING" vs. "PERSEVERING!"

Unless, or UNTIL you are one of "these?" You'll be PERSECUTED, sometimes ignorantly? most times in a WILLING ignorance, by "THE chip on their shoulders!"

Revelation 2
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I've observed vicious attacks everywhere on the BDF. Some members have left, or don't reply anymore because of it which is sad, this forum has slowed down considerably since I've been here. Some members have written books on the Bible, therefore they defend their position as if their livelihood hangs in the balance. Some are actually preachers....But you're probably right it's the belief that the Laws of Almighty are still valid that draws the most fire. I don't mince words about that, where I stand ~Messiah said "do not think I've come to abolish the law..." and goes on to say fulfill or fill up or complete depending on how one wants to word it, but it sure don't mean abolish. Moses said The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

There seems to be a deliberate ignorance about why one would strive to be obedient, and over and over it's said "the law does not save you!" Duh, we know that, we know we are saved by grace, Messiah's bought us with His blood....and we say we love the law it reveals His character we want to be more like Him, etc...and on and on it goes. It's like the movie "Groundhog Day". There is so much to learn from obeying the law but that comes across as hate speech, to speak of those things. The bible says it is the carnal mind who will not obey. The real learning/transforming comes from doing the Word not just thinking about it.

Thanks for your studies, and your wisdom and kindness comes through in your posts.

Your post was a very pleasant read. Encouraging, challenging, caring....and yet there are those who scoff at it.

I do not think it is a stretch to reach a consensus that finds those who are rude, condescending, threatening, resisting of all calls to righteousness as "carnally minded". Sadly, and I know I am repeating myself, these faceless forums do not squelch the hostilities that face to face meets do. Although even the face to face is beginning to lose the once temperate tones of years past. And, if I may be so bold; It is due to carnal lawlessness.

What tempers a mans tone when he is addressing another beleiver? Simply put; "A love for his Creator and his neighbor" When men are intemperate this love has not been cultivated, rather, a resistance of The Law, which in it's essence is Love is being cultivated. Sadly, there is no reasoning with those who have resisted The Law of love. And this is why so many have packed up kicked the dust off their feet and left. 2Co 6:14

 

[PennEd]

The group of people Paul had the greatest disdain for, and warned the Brethren most about, were the Judaizers. So much so that he actually told them he wished the Judaizers would cut off their WHOLE genitalia rather than just their foreskins.

There seems to be this massive tendency to "love" the Law. We are not to love the Law. We are to love the One who FULFILLED the Law! Namely, Jesus Christ.

Beware those who in some fashion tear at Paul's writings, as if they are not from the Lord Himself. Don't start going down that Law path Brethren. It may start innocently enough with things like participating in a Passover, abstaining by choice Holidays like Christmas and Easter, and then VERY quickly devolve into you MUST observe the Passover and you MUST refrain from celebrating Holidays, and you MUST observe the Sabbath, and so on ....

DO NOT let modern day Judaizers take your eyes off of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, His gift of eternal Life, loving HIM and your neighbor.

 

[UnderGrace]

I've observed vicious attacks everywhere on the BDF. Some members have left, or don't reply anymore because of it which is sad, this forum has slowed down considerably since I've been here. Some members have written books on the Bible, therefore they defend their position as if their livelihood hangs in the balance. Some are actually preachers....But you're probably right it's the belief that the Laws of Almighty are still valid that draws the most fire. I don't mince words about that, where I stand ~Messiah said "do not think I've come to abolish the law..." and goes on to say fulfill or fill up or complete depending on how one wants to word it, but it sure don't mean abolish. Moses said The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

There seems to be a deliberate ignorance about why one would strive to be obedient, and over and over it's said "the law does not save you!" Duh, we know that, we know we are saved by grace, Messiah's bought us with His blood....and we say we love the law it reveals His character we want to be more like Him, etc...and on and on it goes. It's like the movie "Groundhog Day". There is so much to learn from obeying the law but that comes across as hate speech, to speak of those things. The bible says it is the carnal mind who will not obey. The real learning/transforming comes from doing the Word not just thinking about it.

Thanks for your studies, and your wisdom and kindness comes through in your posts.

According to scripture Grace and Law cannot be mixed together. It is one or the other.

And yes of course Jesus did not abolish the law because He fulfilled it....in Christ we no longer need the law because we have Him .... the flesh needs the law and the world needs laws, For those who walk in the spirit the grace of Christ is sufficient.

Grace is more than the point of salvation it is the divine influence upon the believer's heart.

 

[UnderGrace]

modern day Judaizers

A serious problem.
Rob us of our joy in Jesus.

 

[Grandpa]

Your post was a very pleasant read. Encouraging, challenging, caring....and yet there are those who scoff at it.

I do not think it is a stretch to reach a consensus that finds those who are rude, condescending, threatening, resisting of all calls to righteousness as "carnally minded". Sadly, and I know I am repeating myself, these faceless forums do not squelch the hostilities that face to face meets do. Although even the face to face is beginning to lose the once temperate tones of years past. And, if I may be so bold; It is due to carnal lawlessness.

What tempers a mans tone when he is addressing another beleiver? Simply put; "A love for his Creator and his neighbor" When men are intemperate this love has not been cultivated, rather, a resistance of The Law, which in it's essence is Love is being cultivated. Sadly, there is no reasoning with those who have resisted The Law of love. And this is why so many have packed up kicked the dust off their feet and left. 2Co 6:14

Those who are carnally minded are those who think that righteousness comes by the law.

Those who work at the law and worship the law can't see it. The bible tells us why.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

 

[PennEd]

A serious problem.
Rob us of our joy in Jesus.

They are not robbing me of the joy in the Lord. He has revealed what these people are to me yrs ago. The ONLY purpose in responding here is not to teach them. I have found them to be obstinate, that leads to divisiveness. So i rarely engage THEM.

It is for the honest skeptic and the baby brother or sister in Christ that can easily be confused, beguiled and deceived by a twisting of Scripture that these engage in, that I even post here. And they have honed their craft very well.

 

[SimpleGardner]

....And even more then that, sir! These people, who make no qualms concerning their blindness, and you may well be right concerning backslidden family members, yet, it is to these particular members themselves, I am referring to.
These who walk in darkness, yet display it like some badge of honor, daring all in knocking this chip off my shoulder!
And, when one tries in kindness, love and compassion, in showing them? IT'S WAR! That's when they start delving into their vanishing points! That's when they start word twisting, and changing definitions of the words they use in their very ambiguous arguments!
Revelation 13
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You could interchange this term "count the number of the beast", with Jesus' retort to the scribes and pharasee's, "TRADITIONS of man, which MAKES VOID the Word of God? And one would be more correct in correctly inferring so then not!

This verse has ZERO MEANING to people like this! THIS is the "chip" they so proudly strut around with on their shoulders, in their daring one to knock off! Whilst they perpetuate the "species!"
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In their defense? It's not that they aren't saved! But, it's more like they have been "carried over" into the next "thousand years/everlasting!" And shall be taught, that which they missed during this everlasting!
After which? satan shall be loosed (again), and which time we shall then see just how well and deeply, those teachings took to them!

But? Till then? Do not allow these ones to discourage you!
For, the difference? Is as different as "PRESERVING" vs. "PERSEVERING!"

Unless, or UNTIL you are one of "these?" You'll be PERSECUTED, sometimes ignorantly? most times in a WILLING ignorance, by "THE chip on their shoulders!"

Revelation 2
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Thank you for your encouragement. I pray that you too are kept in perfect peace as you fix your thoughts on Our Heavenly Father!

Couldn't help but see the correlation and wisdom relating to this matter in:

Pro 24:1-34 KJV Be not thou envious against evil men, neither desire to be with them. (2) For their heart studieth destruction, and their lips talk of mischief. (3) Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established: (4) And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches. (5) A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength. (6) For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety. (7) Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate. (8) He that deviseth to do evil shall be called a mischievous person. (9) The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men. (10) If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small. (11) If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; (12) If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? (13) My son, eat thou honey, because it is good; and the honeycomb, which is sweet to thy taste: (14) So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off. (15) Lay not wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; spoil not his resting place: (16) For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. (17) Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: (18) Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him. (19) Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked; (20) For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out. (21) My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change: (22) For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both? (23) These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment. (24) He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him: (25) But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them. (26) Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer. (27) Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house. (28) Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips. (29) Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work. (30) I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding; (31) And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down. (32) Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction. (33) Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: (34) So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth; and thy want as an armed man.


In another thread I mentioned the possibility that many of these people who are distraught with any call to righteousness do indeed have family members, possibly children who are backslidden. In that thread my comment immediately unleashed a torrent of anger and resentment where they said how dare I condemn someone lost in sin, which I did not, and that everyone should ignore me, not reply to me at all. I think that hit a nerve. I can only imagine the personal responsibility they must feel if their children are living a life of sin when they consider that the scripture says;

Pro 22:6 KJV Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

If they have departed then they must wonder if they are responsible for the situation. This is not an simple matter. We must pray for their hearts and minds in these matters, as the adversary can torment them ceaselessly. But that being said we cannot allow their desires to grasp false doctrines to justify their lost ones to permeate others who are young in Christ.

 

[SimpleGardner]

They are not robbing me of the joy in the Lord. He has revealed what these people are to me yrs ago. The ONLY purpose in responding here is not to teach them. I have found them to be obstinate, that leads to divisiveness. So i rarely engage THEM.

It is for the honest skeptic and the baby brother or sister in Christ that can easily be confused, beguiled and deceived by a twisting of Scripture that these engage in, that I even post here. And they have honed their craft very well.

PennEd,

I sense your sincerity, and I understand the doctrine of Grace and do not argue against it. I too am a beneficiary of the Grace of God.

You are mischaracterizing these people. They agree with grace too and they Love God and accept the work of Jesus as their redeemer!

There is no good that comes from this! They see you as the enemy of the truth just as you do them! We are not enemies! If you continue to make enemies of everyone who loves God then what have you gained?

Pray that this division be terminated in unity by the Spirit of God. Perpetuating the animosity will only make it worse.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The group of people Paul had the greatest disdain for, and warned the Brethren most about, were the Judaizers. So much so that he actually told them he wished the Judaizers would cut off their WHOLE genitalia rather than just their foreskins.

There seems to be this massive tendency to "love" the Law. We are not to love the Law. We are to love the One who FULFILLED the Law! Namely, Jesus Christ.

Beware those who in some fashion tear at Paul's writings, as if they are not from the Lord Himself. Don't start going down that Law path Brethren. It may start innocently enough with things like participating in a Passover, abstaining by choice Holidays like Christmas and Easter, and then VERY quickly devolve into you MUST observe the Passover and you MUST refrain from celebrating Holidays, and you MUST observe the Sabbath, and so on ....

DO NOT let modern day Judaizers take your eyes off of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, His gift of eternal Life, loving HIM and your neighbor.

Amen, I guess if I hate Gods law. Jesus must have hated it also, And his words were much harsher than mine were!

 

[Karraster]

Your post was a very pleasant read. Encouraging, challenging, caring....and yet there are those who scoff at it.

I do not think it is a stretch to reach a consensus that finds those who are rude, condescending, threatening, resisting of all calls to righteousness as "carnally minded". Sadly, and I know I am repeating myself, these faceless forums do not squelch the hostilities that face to face meets do. Although even the face to face is beginning to lose the once temperate tones of years past. And, if I may be so bold; It is due to carnal lawlessness.

What tempers a mans tone when he is addressing another beleiver? Simply put; "A love for his Creator and his neighbor" When men are intemperate this love has not been cultivated, rather, a resistance of The Law, which in it's essence is Love is being cultivated. Sadly, there is no reasoning with those who have resisted The Law of love. And this is why so many have packed up kicked the dust off their feet and left. 2Co 6:14

There used to be a member here who said many a time concerning sharpening swords, that is is done similar to the real sharpening of swords. It is done between battles and usually between friends gently, not during hand to hand combat with a percieved enemy clashing of swords. Of course he said it much more eloquently than I, but maybe the idea gets across. It painted an illustration in my mind which I like very much. I'd much rather read a gentle post which is your custom, than those filled with venom.

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? Wow this verse always stabs my heart because I've been guilty. It's just one example of why I strive to obey the instructions because I do not like the consequences. If I belittle my brother, treat him roughly or don't forgive him it makes me feel broken myself. What is that but my conscience telling me? The laws written on my heart? I want it to be so, I hope so. Because that rings so true...How can we love an unseen God when we cannot value our brothers made in His likeness?
Anyway, I like your posts and could be wrong but thought you were gone for a short time, I thought oh no I hope you didn't shake the dust off your feet.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are not robbing me of the joy in the Lord. He has revealed what these people are to me yrs ago. The ONLY purpose in responding here is not to teach them. I have found them to be obstinate, that leads to divisiveness. So i rarely engage THEM.

It is for the honest skeptic and the baby brother or sister in Christ that can easily be confused, beguiled and deceived by a twisting of Scripture that these engage in, that I even post here. And they have honed their craft very well.

Which is why I call them out.. People do things differently. As long as it is done in christ, Thats what matters. Amen bro!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

PennEd,

I sense your sincerity, and I understand the doctrine of Grace and do not argue against it. I too am a beneficiary of the Grace of God.

You are mischaracterizing these people. They agree with grace too and they Love God and accept the work of Jesus as their redeemer!

There is no good that comes from this! They see you as the enemy of the truth just as you do them! We are not enemies! If you continue to make enemies of everyone who loves God then what have you gained?

Pray that this division be terminated in unity by the Spirit of God. Perpetuating the animosity will only make it worse.

How can they agree with grace then preach what they do? If you think they preach grace. I have serious questions about your understanding of Grace

You can not teach grace and law. (Except that the law teaches grace, and leads us to grace as the schoolmaster, and once it has done its job, we need to put it where it belongs.) You can not teach grace and works. They are diametrically apposed to each other.

People who try to do not understand either.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

PennEd,

I sense your sincerity, and I understand the doctrine of Grace and do not argue against it. I too am a beneficiary of the Grace of God.

You are mischaracterizing these people. They agree with grace too and they Love God and accept the work of Jesus as their redeemer!

There is no good that comes from this! They see you as the enemy of the truth just as you do them! We are not enemies! If you continue to make enemies of everyone who loves God then what have you gained?

Pray that this division be terminated in unity by the Spirit of God. Perpetuating the animosity will only make it worse.

One more thing!

People need to see what is going on.

He lied about a few people. And since then, instead of apologizing, or trying to understand where he made his mistake, He has gone on a campaign to further attack and belittle the person he lied about to begin with.

This is what judiazers do. This is what the pharisees did to Christ when he called them out for their slander against him and God.

And this is how you can know them, by their fruits you will now them

If he had actual information which could prove me wrong, he would just state it and prove me wrong.