Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Jan 12, 2019
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Wow, over 400 pages in and I don't think I ever made a comment. Why so many pages for such a simple subject? The OT was about the Law and blood sacrifice. It was imperfect and it simply "covered" sin. It was temporary till Christ came. Then He became the blood sacrifice, and our sins are now taken away, not just covered by the blood of a sacrificed animal. We no longer have need of the Law and blood sacrifice. We have Christ, our only high priest. If you are under the Law you need the blood of an animal and a priest to go before God on your behalf. Christ broke all of that, He is the sacrifice, He took our sin away, and He goes to the Father in our place.He is our high priest and we can come boldly before the throne, which was not possible in the OT. Jesus brought a new covenant. Very simple.
Yet, when the ascended Christ gave the "Great Commission" in Matt 28 to the 11, he stated

20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

And the Jewish believers in Acts were

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12

20 Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20

Conclusion: Your point about everyone preaching that the Law was nailed at the crucifixion was a tad premature. No one preached that in Acts. Even by the time Acts 15 arrived, it was only agreed that the Gentiles who believe do not have to keep the Law.

Only after Paul was raised, then the ascended Christ revealed to him that the Law was nailed to the cross, for everyone.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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There was a long transition period between the Old and the New Covenants. Just keep in mind that Paul's conversion took place 2-3 years after the cross, the Council of Jerusalem some 15 years, and some teachers say that the Primitive Church was completely free from the Law some 40 years after the cross.
That opinion and mine are about the same. Thx for sharing it with me.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
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I seriously resent you making me think,I'm gettin too old for that foolishness. Better put a :p or someone will accuse me of joking and being led astray...
I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What doeth it?

Ecclasiastes 2
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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Putting you in your proverbial place by stating I work in ministry is not in any way seeking glory or rewards from anyone. But I do like watching you squirm in your attempts to downgrade the irrevocable gift of God’s grace afforded everyone who believes in Jesus.
Sorry if I am repeating myself, I just feel we have had this conversation before, have we? Deja vu, maybe. Come to think of it, different name. Anyway, you will see by the scripture, it is the elect here, are who are being addressed. This is a very distinct group. If it was taught as truth for all, it would be very deceiving, you must agree. I believe it goes back to the first earth age and that is how they are already determined to be counted on by God as they have already stood with Him and as such, are preordained or He foreknew them etc.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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There was a long transition period between the Old and the New Covenants. Just keep in mind that Paul's conversion took place 2-3 years after the cross, the Council of Jerusalem some 15 years, and some teachers say that the Primitive Church was completely free from the Law some 40 years after the cross.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass than one tittle of the law to fail.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luke 16:16 is interpreted differently by different readers.

To me, the Law and prophets were predicting the arrival of the coming King of the Jews, which is the Son of God.

Once John arrived, the King has arrived in the flesh, that is Jesus. So it made sense to say that it was until John.

It does not mean the Law of Moses has ceased to be valid when John the Baptist arrived. It was only after the mystery revealed to Paul that the Law of Moses was declared nailed to the cross.
 
Aug 17, 2019
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I was just thinking about posting Galatians 3:3 after his post.

I suppose I could post that after every single one of their posts. Seems like a pretty easy scripture to grasp.

But I guess not.
Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Galatians 3:3

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— Romans 15:18

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

Food Sacrificed to Idols Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:23

Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 5:6

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and walk in Love.

God is good and His Love endures forever. Amen.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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Luke 16:16 is interpreted differently by different readers.

To me, the Law and prophets were predicting the arrival of the coming King of the Jews, which is the Son of God.

Once John arrived, the King has arrived in the flesh, that is Jesus. So it made sense to say that it was until John.

It does not mean the Law of Moses has ceased to be valid when John the Baptist arrived. It was only after the mystery revealed to Paul that the Law of Moses was declared nailed to the cross.
Was it the law or the ordinances of the law?
 
Aug 17, 2019
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I was just thinking about posting Galatians 3:3 after his post.

I suppose I could post that after every single one of their posts. Seems like a pretty easy scripture to grasp.

But I guess not.
Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Galatians 3:3

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— Romans 15:18

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:23

Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 5:6

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and walk in Love.

God is good and His Love endures forever. Amen
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Was it the law or the ordinances of the law?
Whenever Paul talks about the Law in his epistles, it always includes the 10 commandments.

The Law is a composite whole, only we try to separate ceremonial law from the others.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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Whenever Paul talks about the Law in his epistles, it always includes the 10 commandments.

The Law is a composite whole, only we try to separate ceremonial law from the others.
I have lots of questions I hope you don't mind. But you seem like you want to teach, and I want to learn. So thank you. .

Why do you believe we try to do that and why say only we try? (who else would try, I don't get the reason for the statement )
Did God make a point of saying "these are all one" and or "don't separate" these, and if so did He give us a reason for that, and if you don't mind listing the verses on these things so I can go look them up I would really appreciate it.

What it something other than the ordinances nailed to the cross?

Where is it Paul talks about the law and says it includes the commandments?

When you say "a complete composite", because they are all in the first 5 books? or they were all given to Moses or all apply to Gods chosen People? or because God didn't name them? This may just be the question above in different words, I don't know.

They were definitely divided into "categories" even at the time when they were all in force, different ones for the Levitical Priest duties and those didn't apply to anyone but the priests, which Jesus changed. Or the ceremonial, which ended with Jesus etc.

With the 10 commandments, 2 tablets written by God, were put "into" the ark and the law was put it beside it. Doesn't this show that God Himself separated them from each other? That is a pretty big show in itself as at least those being separated, right?

I know I have some more but I can't think of them right now. No hurry. And once again thank you.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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People love to misread those whom they disagree with.

There is only one good news NOW for everyone.

That does not mean the good news preached in the past are all about the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

There is no contradiction in the above two points
I agree only one gospel, one way:

John 14:6,23-26,

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

" 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Acts 3:22-23, " 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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That was all really sad and painful to read. I was going to give it an emoji but there really isn't one that works. I just wanted to say thank you for the info.
Indeed, and as hard as it is I think it shows their commitment to Jesus in carrying out what He wanted from them. Just makes me think abide in Him and Him and His words in us.

John 14:23, "Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

Revelation 21:3-4, " 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Where is it Paul talks about the law and says it includes the commandments?.
Romans 7: 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God...

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Thou shalt not covet is one of the 10.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I agree only one gospel, one way:

John 14:6,23-26,

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

" 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Acts 3:22-23, " 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Gospel simply means good news.
  • What was the good news preached by Jesus and the 12 during Matt-John to the Jews? That their promised King and Messiah is here. That if all of them are willing to repent from rejecting God in the past and accept Jesus as the Son of God, he will rule over them with justice and righteousness (Jeremiah 23:5-6).
  • What is the good news preached to all Gentiles now? That Jesus has died for your sins, was buried, and rose again. All you need to do is to believe in all those works he have done for you, and you are now reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:11-21)
Both gospels are examples of Good news. And only the last one is strictly about Jesus's death burial and resurrection, which is the good news that is valid NOW, even though both gospels are centered around our Lord Jesus Christ.

All these are scriptural, and many people are realizing this for the very first time, so naturally, they will need time to understand and accept.
 

Shekinahglory

Active member
Aug 29, 2019
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Paul was talking to the Galatian church and spoke of the Judaizers as perverting the Gospel of Christ. The word pervert has a different meaning than it has taken on today, This word meant taking something headed in the right direction and to twist it and turn it round and reverse it, This was part of Paul's teaching on returning to anything, especially Law, and not the pure Grace they had been originally taught. Twisting the Good News of Christ until it was reversed on itself heading in the wrong direction.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I agree with you 100%, but my question is not whether or not we should keep the Torah. Actually, my question is this: Who told us to stop keeping the law of Moses?

It is true that during His earthly ministry Jesus never told the disciples to stop keeping the Law, and many law keepers today build their argument on this fact.

The earthly Jesus never told us to stop keeping the law of Moses, but the risen Christ did (through Paul). If we were to read only the four Gospels we would be Torah observant to this day. So, the purpose of this thread is to stimulate reflection on the importance of Paul's letters. It is in his letters that we'll find the answer to my question: Who told us to stop keeping the law of Moses?
You can’t keep the law of moses. So stop trying or thinking you do

And start to seeve and love others, place their needs above your own, trust god to take care of all your needs, and you will start to resemble christ.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I agree with you 100%, but my question is not whether or not we should keep the Torah. Actually, my question is this: Who told us to stop keeping the law of Moses?

It is true that during His earthly ministry Jesus never told the disciples to stop keeping the Law, and many law keepers today build their argument on this fact.

The earthly Jesus never told us to stop keeping the law of Moses, but the risen Christ did (through Paul). If we were to read only the four Gospels we would be Torah observant to this day. So, the purpose of this thread is to stimulate reflection on the importance of Paul's letters. It is in his letters that we'll find the answer to my question: Who told us to stop keeping the law of Moses?
Peter tried to do that in Acts 15 for both Jews and Gentiles, after his experience with Cornelius, but James would have none of it.

When you literally read how Acts 15 went down, as recorded by Luke. Peter actually stated this:

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

A literal reading will tell you that Peter is actually saying that he wants the Jews (we), from then on, to be saved, as a Gentile (they).

This is very significant because under the Law of Moses, Gentiles could be saved, but only as a Jew. Exodus 12:48 sums that up well.

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

So when Peter announced that, it was of huge significance to all the Jews who heard him during the Council.

But alas, James intervened before it could take root, and he did his final announcement that

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

James, in my reading, deftly changed Peter's proclamation about how Jews and Gentiles are now to turn to God, into just the Gentiles.
And Acts 21 confirmed it, especially in v20

...Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law

In my reading, James kept the Jewish believers bounded to the Law of Moses.

So much for the widely taught doctrine that Peter was the head of the church, and James merely supported Peter's decision. Scripture indicated otherwise.

It is amazing how a literal reading of Acts 15, without the baggage of church doctrine, reveals.
 
May 1, 2019
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Alright, a pastor gets paid weekly, not by love offering. Do you consider that an occupation? Trying to understand what you mean exactly.

Hey Kaylagrl,

Yes, In most cases today "Pastors" are employees. Yahshua speaks of "feeding His sheep" to Peter. Later we hear Peter share; "silver and gold have I none." from that, it is not hard to gather that what Peter declared when Yahshua was here;

Mat 19:27 KJV
(27) Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

That Peter was dirt poor in service to the Kingdom of Heaven was clear. Pastors are a breed of shepherd who have mingled the occupation and religion to create an "occupation ministry" which are conflicting terms.

Are pastors good people? Many of my best, dear friends are pastors, so yes, but the most effective ministers of the gospel I have ever met are those who pay their own way. Paul was an example...he worked to support his own efforts. It didn't hurt that his family was very wealthy, but his way was not to burden the people with his needs.

I am not impugning your pastor or any others. I have no right nor desire to, but I do find doing God's work is most effective when the worker is paid the wages of fruit/harvest to be collected in the Kingdom of Heaven, rather than money. At least with the latter you know where the heart of that worker is.

SG :)
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
To answer the posts question.
I don't think Jesus asked people to change or stop keeping the laws of moses. There were hundreds of laws for different people and places and times but they were all significant. When Jesus died the need to kill lambs became valueless. Many of the laws became outdated. The curtain was ripped in the sanctuary and we can claim the blood of Christ.
Heb7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Read all of Heb 7,8,9. You'll see that the new covenant and new testiment came into place at the death of Christ. The first became old.
Many of Moses' laws and the ceremonies practiced were made void.
No one will argue that stealing, killing, lying or taking the Lords name in vain is ok, or acceptable today. The grace and blood of Jesus has freed us from the penalty of the law but it is still Gods holy law.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

God wants to write His law on our hearts and in our minds.