Did mis-treatment of woman begin with Adam?

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Three woman's names were mentioned to represent all that heard the parable as the ground work . Possibly because woman literal represent the new creation, the whole church, the bride Christ.(Jew and gentile, male and female) She is made up of many lively stone that does form the spiritual house of God. Three is used to represent the end of the mater in many parables.

Virtue was used before the time of the wedding consumation. A lesson... be patient walk by faith.
My goodness dude. You have completely lost it.

Your lack of fear over the thousands of private interpretations is disturbing.

Let's just make sure you don't allegorize Jesus away.

Was there a REAL person, Jesus of Nazareth, who is the Son of God, and did He die on a cross to pay for your sin, and did He in PHYSICAL form rise from the dead?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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It's a narrative passage, not a parable. There is no hidden meaning. When you misunderstand the genre of literature in the passage, how can your conclusion be correct?

Narrative passages are used in parables to hide the unseen eternal meaning revealing them to those who look to the prescriptions ( 2 Corinthians 4:18 for interpreting parables.

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal

The time period of kings in Israel was used as a parable for the time then present.. The narrative parable served two purposes as historical true and had a spiritual meaning hid. Like all parables that use the things seen the temporal to give us the eternal unseen .the glory of God.

I strongly recommend that you read the book, "How to Read the Bible For All It's Worth" by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart. They discuss genres within Scripture and how to interpret each kind.
Thanks sounds interesting
 
A

AuntieAnt

Guest
Excerpt from commentary by: Dudley G. Robinson [Christian author]

Legalism began in the Garden of Eden when man ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man chose to judge what is good and what is evil for himself. Man took on himself what only belonged to God. We weigh what is right and wrong for ourselves and for others. We are the judge and jury. We carry a set of internal rules and measures and apply them to our lives and then we lift the results of those measurements up to God or our fellow man hoping that they measure up. Legalism is the way of fallen man that we carry with us in our flesh. We deal with the world around us and with our expectations of ourselves with this fleshly pattern. We want to measure up. We want to excel. We want to look good.

At the fall, Adam and Eve looked at one another and for the first time they were aware of themselves. They covered up and felt shame. They had become self-conscious. They had lost their God-consciousness. They judged themselves wrongly and man has been covering up ever since. Legalism is our way of looking good in our own eyes. It is so ingrained in us that only God by his grace can free us from it.

At the fall man said to God that he could live independently from Him. It is a lie we continue to tell ourselves. We cannot live by our own self-efforts and according to our self-made measurements. We only fool ourselves when we try. We certainly will not fool God.

The only antidote to legalism is God’s pure grace. The Spirit of God vies against the flesh and He will win. We need to stop eating of the forbidden fruit and return to the Tree of Life. That tree is none other than Jesus. By God’s grace we can rely on Him. God is pleased with His Son and He is pleased with us because His Son dwells in us. We are God’s adopted Sons and Daughters, set apart for His glory. We meet God’s measure through the work of His Son in and through us. Doesn’t that make our feeble self-efforts meaningless in comparison?

Christ is our everything.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(my additional comments)
So..... does it seriously matter if Adam was the first man to mistreat women?

That’s neither here nor there. More importantly, shaming and blaming women (even feminist women) was not Jesus’ style. The Lord in every case treated women with integrity, gentleness and love no matter what situation they were in. The Lord Jesus lifted women up from prejudice, contempt, and condemnation. It confounds many legalistic folks that prostitutes, “unclean” (menstruating) women, adulteresses, promiscuous women (with five or more sexual partners), even feminists are not only precious in God’s eyes, but also valuable to the Kingdom of God.

If for a few moments we stop trying to analyze Adam and Eve, can we just look at the examples below of God's treatment of women and judge ourselves in comparison? Are we presently treating women with this level of gentleness, integrity, and honor? If not, all we need to do is look to Christ and learn from Him. His way is easy and light. Problem solved. No more need to judge Adam.


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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Three woman's names were mentioned to represent all that heard the parable as the ground work .
Let's see what the text actually says, and see whether your statement stands up:

40 And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him.
41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:
42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.
43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

Hmm... no three women mentioned. Now, three women were mentioned in verses 2 and 3... 27 verses previously. In between, there are several statements that change the context, as follows:

4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city... (and then the parable of the soils).

19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.

22 Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his disciples... (and then the calming of the storm).

26 And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.

40 And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned (from Gadara).

So, once again, the mention of the three women and the woman healed of her discharge are not in the same story. It's not even the same day! Therefore, they are irrelevant to the meaning of the discharge/healing story. Jesus does not speak a parable in this passage.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Narrative passages are used in parables
You have that exactly backwards. Parables are recorded within narrative passages. Parables in Scripture are stories spoken primarily by Jesus to illustrate spiritual truths. Luke's gospel as a whole is not a parable. The events recorded in the gospels are actual historical events, not parables.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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You have that exactly backwards.Parables are recorded within narrative passages. Parables in Scripture are stories spoken primarily by Jesus to illustrate spiritual truths. Luke's gospel as a whole is not a parable. The events recorded in the gospels are actual historical events, not parables.
You have that exactly backwards. Parables are recorded within narrative passages. Parables in Scripture are stories spoken primarily by Jesus to illustrate spiritual truths. Luke's gospel as a whole is not a parable. The events recorded in the gospels are actual historical events, not parables.

And you as it seems are turning things upside down taking away the spiritual understanding . Just as the Jews performed with their oral traditions .

Parables are the recorded narrative. They provide the true historical account as well as the hidden manna account.

Parables are used in two ways. One historically true and the other to hide the spiritual understanding from natural unconverted man.

Parables are foolishness unto natural man neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Mark 4:11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The poetic language of God is signified in that way .Without parables God's word speaks not.

Revelation speaks of the poetic language of God in so much that not only is it inspired form heaven but its also gives us the signified meaning that reveals the gospel hid from natural man who must literalize to make any kind of sense. .neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The language is not sent and now search for the literal sense if it makes sense avoid searching for another understanding. . They both make different senses. One historically accurate the other the intended spiritual meaning. In that way I would suggest the whole bible as the signified language of God is a parable.

Some it would seem have the wrong kind of fear for searching out the meanings and cling to the literal .Catholicism a classic example. Walk after the things seen as if the kingdom of God came by observation and not looking to the spiritual meanings.. Like in who needs faith just open ones eyes ?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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My goodness dude. You have completely lost it.

Your lack of fear over the thousands of private interpretations is disturbing.

Let's just make sure you don't allegorize Jesus away.

Was there a REAL person, Jesus of Nazareth, who is the Son of God, and did He die on a cross to pay for your sin, and did He in PHYSICAL form rise from the dead?
Refusing to search out the hidden meaning in parables would seem to be disturbing to myself.

What do you think the idea of virtue went out signified as a parable if it did not have to do with the intimacy of beforehand .Did she steal the virtue of Christ before the consummation of the wedding in heaven ?

How would you describe the virtue that went out before its time?

Jesus the REAL person as the Son of God our high priest continually put on the temporal flesh as the Son of man .God is not a man as us never was never could be. The Son of man was kept from corruption and was raised according to the spirit of holiness. No such thing as the flesh of holiness . He was not raised as the Son of Man with power according to his birth.

What the flesh could not perform, the work of His Spirit finished. We walk by faith not by sight after the temporal

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Refusing to search out the hidden meaning in parables would seem to be disturbing to myself.

What do you think the idea of virtue went out signified as a parable if it did not have to do with the intimacy of beforehand .Did she steal the virtue of Christ before the consummation of the wedding in heaven ?

How would you describe the virtue that went out before its time?

Jesus the REAL person as the Son of God our high priest continually put on the temporal flesh as the Son of man .God is not a man as us never was never could be. The Son of man was kept from corruption and was raised according to the spirit of holiness. No such thing as the flesh of holiness . He was not raised as the Son of Man with power according to his birth.

What the flesh could not perform, the work of His Spirit finished. We walk by faith not by sight after the temporal

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
As usual, I have trouble sifting your cryptic posts.

Can you please just answer simply? Is Jesus the Messiah God in the flesh?

Was He, Jesus the Messiah, raised from the dead on the 3rd day, in PHYSICAL form that others could touch, like Thomas?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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And you as it seems are turning things upside down taking away the spiritual understanding . Just as the Jews performed with their oral traditions .
I'm not taking anything away, I'm just not adding things that simply aren't there. I recognize parables for what they are: pithy stories using concepts familiar to the audience that teach spiritual truths. Examples include the lost coin (Luke 15) the unmerciful servant (Matthew 18) and the vineyard workers (Mark 12).

Parable: a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like. (www.dictionary.com)

Parables are the recorded narrative. They provide the true historical account as well as the hidden manna account.

Parables are used in two ways. One historically true and the other to hide the spiritual understanding from natural unconverted man.
Historical accounts are not parables! They are simply different kinds of literature! Your idea that historical accounts have some alleged "hidden manna account" is esoteric garbage! David actually felled Goliath with a stone from a sling... that isn't a parable! Solomon actually built a grand temple... that isn't a parable!

Historical events may have spiritual purposes, implications, and effects, but they aren't parables. Historical events may even be used to illustrate spiritual truths, but the events themselves still aren't parables.

Parables are foolishness unto natural man neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
While this is strictly true, you are applying it very wrongly. You seem to think that you are able to discern things that I am unable to discern. Do you see the gross arrogance in that? I'm a Christian. I have the Spirit of God. You keep implying that I don't.

Mark 4:11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Jesus was speaking to His disciples. He was explaining to them that the general audience was given parables, while they were given the full understanding. You cannot apply this to everything recorded in Scripture. If you could, I would have to ask what is the meaning of this parable of Jesus telling about parables? There isn't one, because it isn't a parable!

The poetic language of God is signified in that way .Without parables God's word speaks not.
This is simply wrong. Jesus Himself said (and it is recorded several times) that when He was talking to the general audience, He spoke in parables. He spoke plainly to His disciples. You've badly misinterpreted this! You're taking part of a verse, ignoring the rest, and applying that part far beyond what is appropriate. Essentially, you are adding to God's word.

Here's Mark 4:10-11 from the NIV, with emphasis added:

10 When he (Jesus) was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables."

Jesus spoke in plain language, not parables, to the disciples. We, the Christians, are the ones to whom the secret of the kingdom of God has been given.

Revelation speaks of the poetic language of God in so much that not only is it inspired form heaven but its also gives us the signified meaning that reveals the gospel hid from natural man who must literalize to make any kind of sense. .neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The language is not sent and now search for the literal sense if it makes sense avoid searching for another understanding. . They both make different senses. One historically accurate the other the intended spiritual meaning. In that way I would suggest the whole bible as the signified language of God is a parable.
And you'd be wrong... frighteningly wrong. The Bible is God's word. If the whole thing is a parable, then we have no need to follow it because Jesus didn't actually die for our sins... and we wouldn't be sinners anyway.

Revelation 1:1, which you just quoted, is not a parable. It is plain language with no hidden meaning. You take that literally, as you should. Yet earlier you claimed (in error) that "Without parables God's word speaks not." Well, either Revelation 1:1 is a parable as you claim (and then interpret it incorrectly) or it is not a parable, and your statement is wrong. You cannot have it both ways.

Some it would seem have the wrong kind of fear for searching out the meanings and cling to the literal .Catholicism a classic example. Walk after the things seen as if the kingdom of God came by observation and not looking to the spiritual meanings.. Like in who needs faith just open ones eyes ?
What is this fear you speak of? There is nothing wrong with studying God's word, but if your purpose is to seek a hidden meaning in every passage, you have the wrong motive and you are an easy target for deception.

Catholicism is irrelevant here. I'm not Catholic, and I don't consider that body any sort of spiritual authority. You've mentioned Catholicism several times in our conversations, and I have continually told you that it is irrelevant, but for some reason you haven't caught on.

Our faith is in Jesus and the resurrection, which we cannot presently see. God gives us much that we can see to confirm the hope we have in those things we cannot see. You're misinterpreting this concept as well.

Garee, this has gone far beyond a simple difference in how we understand the word "parable". Your view is dangerous. It has led you to believe things about the Bible and about other Christians that are not true. It makes interpreting Scripture entirely subjective, because whatever meaning you "discover", you consider correct and unassailable. You can come up with all sorts of truly wacky ideas, claiming that they are the "spiritual meaning" behind certain passages. You have already started to believe that others don't have your supposedly exalted level of understanding. You set yourself up as the authority, and you are in danger of wandering away from the truth.
 

JosephsDreams

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2015
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As usual, I have trouble sifting your cryptic posts.

Can you please just answer simply? Is Jesus the Messiah God in the flesh?

Was He, Jesus the Messiah, raised from the dead on the 3rd day, in PHYSICAL form that others could touch, like Thomas?
Not taking sides here, but I gave up reading his replies after the first few sentences. I am sure there is a cognizant POV there, I just was looking for a simpler reply myself. He may be making a point that needs a more involved explanation, and I may be a little bit lazy to read it with more focus, so again, i want to make clear, that while I would like a more economical direct answer, doesn't mean there are elements in his post that are not warranted.

After saying all that, let me cut to the chase; from my perspective if he can not answer your last question in a head-on fashion, then I have my own questions about what his agenda is.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Refusing to search out the hidden meaning in parables would seem to be disturbing to myself.
I know your response was to PennEd, but I'm going to jump in.
Nobody is "refusing" to search out hidden meanings. We are simply taking the plain text to be the intended (and complete) meaning where you are choosing to look for something deeper. As the saying goes, you'll find what you are looking for... whether it is actually there or not.

What do you think the idea of virtue went out signified as a parable if it did not have to do with the intimacy of beforehand .Did she steal the virtue of Christ before the consummation of the wedding in heaven ?
I won't answer for PE, but I don't think the "virtue going out" signified anything. "Virtue" is the word used in the KJV; "power" is used in the NASB. "Power" is a better translation of the Greek word, "dunamis" (from which we get the English words "dynamic" and "dynamite"). Because of this, I think that the alleged connection to "the wedding in heaven" is non-existent. Further, this is a historical account, not a parable.

How would you describe the virtue that went out before its time?
As power to heal. That's it, that's all, and it wasn't "before its time".

Jesus the REAL person as the Son of God our high priest continually put on the temporal flesh as the Son of man .God is not a man as us never was never could be. The Son of man was kept from corruption and was raised according to the spirit of holiness. No such thing as the flesh of holiness . He was not raised as the Son of Man with power according to his birth.
A simple, straightforward answer to PennEd's question would be appropriate.

Jesus didn't "continually" put on flesh; that was a one-time (about 33 years' worth) event.