Difference between God and Jesus

[silas42]

Is Jesus God? Must we believe that the LORD is our Savior? Or, is there another savior whereby we can be saved? Wasn't Jesus the Savior? So, your question, must we believe that Jesus is God? Answer: must we believe God alone is our Savior?

your words seem just, but where is the justice in demanding a denial in saying that we do not have to believe Jesus is that God we know as Savior? Yes, we must believe that He is the only Savior, seeing that the LORD said He is Savior. If He is not God then we still await our Savior, as the Jews do.

I'll make it simple for you. I'm not going to go round the houses with theology/personal opinion, just give you the plain scripture, all I ask is that you do the same.

Now this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John17:3

If anyone believes Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God
1John 4:15

There is my biblical support for my belief

All I ask from you, is as equally plain biblical support where it states a person must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved.
If you cannot supply it, it is my plain scripture against your personal opinions. You are fallible, scripture is not. Of course, if you can supply a text that states eternal life hinges on believing Christ is God, you'll be contradicting Christ's words, but then, after reading many comments in this debate, I expect you'll have good reason for doing so
I await your scriptural responses, not personal thoughts

 

[silas42]

I have not seen silas contribute to the debate.. he has from the sidelines jeered stirring up trouble and its very plain for all to go through his posts and see for themselves.

Prides a hard thing to deal with isn't it Phil. Take for example some people who have studied much, even read the Greek, but then they can't answer simple questions put to them. What do they do? They are proud of the effort they've put in to learn what they have, they think they've achieved much understanding, yet they can't respond to simple questions. It's hard for them to admit it in such circumstances isn't it, they could simply withdraw from the discussion, but the flesh won't let them. So what are they left with? They have to malign and insult the person I guess.

And I would certainly agree with you, I have many faults, and probably more than most. But yet saved by grace. Remember not only are we to proclaim the truth, not only are we to defend the truth, but we also are to contend for the truth.

Noble words Phil.
I await your scriptures that state a person can't be a Christian unless they believe Christ is God Himself. Not your personal theologies BTW, they would be fallible, just the plain text. I can give you very plain text that states what I believe

Conteneding for the truth always causes offence to those who do not like it!
Indeed it does Phil, indeed it does

Answers above

 

[Bryancampbell]

I'll make it simple for you. I'm not going to go round the houses with theology/personal opinion, just give you the plain scripture, all I ask is that you do the same.

Now this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John17:3

If anyone believes Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God
1John 4:15

There is my biblical support for my belief

All I ask from you, is as equally plain biblical support where it states a person must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved.
If you cannot supply it, it is my plain scripture against your personal opinions. You are fallible, scripture is not. Of course, if you can supply a text that states eternal life hinges on believing Christ is God, you'll be contradicting Christ's words, but then, after reading many comments in this debate, I expect you'll have good reason for doing so
I await your scriptural responses, not personal thoughts

First off friend I wanna ask you a question, do you worship Jesus?

Another thing, Son of God and God the Son are interchangeable, same meaning...

 

[silas42]

First off friend I wanna ask you a question, do you worship Jesus?

Another thing, Son of God and God the Son are interchangeable, same meaning...

Hi Bryan

The problem is here, none of my points are being responded to. Yet I am continually being asked questions. It isn't hard to respond to the questions, but I'm not going down the road of all my questions being ignored, and I'm just expected to respond to others. Neither am I prepared to be deflected from the only thing I am debating, who a person must believe Christ to be to inherit eternal life. And on that point I have given plain scripture to support my view, it is only correct I ask others to do the same concerning there view.

 

[Bryancampbell]

Hi Bryan

The problem is here, none of my points are being responded to. Yet I am continually being asked questions. It isn't hard to respond to the questions, but I'm not going down the road of all my questions being ignored, and I'm just expected to respond to others. Neither am I prepared to be deflected from the only thing I wish to debate, who a person must believe Christ to be to inherit eternal life. And on that point I have given plain scripture to support my view, it is only correct I ask others to do the same concerning there view.

Okay let's refresh, Jesus throughout the entire New Testament is referred to as Son of God correct? So He originates from God directly, which means He has the inability to sin. Which makes him holy (kadosh), bible specifically tells us no one is holy but God (Romans 3:9-11).

It further stresses us to use theology in understanding the bible. Since some to most can't pick it up just by reading plain scripture. But Son of God is the same as God the son (bar 'elaha). He claims to be the Messiah, the Savior in which only God can take such a title in such a role for mankind.

 

[silas42]

Okay let's refresh, Jesus throughout the entire New Testament is referred to as Son of God correct? So He originates from God directly, which means He has the inability to sin. Which makes him holy (kadosh), bible specifically tells us no one is holy but God (Romans 3:9-11).

It further stresses us to use theology in understanding the bible. Since some to most can't pick it up just by reading plain scripture. But Son of God is the same as God the son (bar 'elaha). He claims to be the Messiah, the Savior in which only God can take such a title in such a role for mankind.

The problem you have though Bryan is, your reasoning is contradicting the plain word. And that is what it will always come down to. I have plain scripture that states the Father is the one true God, and if a person believes Christ to be the son of God that is salvational belief as to who he is.
You on the other hand have no scripture that states Christ is the one true God, or that a person must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved. You can reason scripture to show why you believe as you do, but I have the plain text, you don't

 

[Bryancampbell]

The problem you have though Bryan is, your reasoning is contradicting the plain word. And that is what it will always come down to. I have plain scripture that states the Father is the one true God, and if a person believes Christ to be the son of God that is salvational belief as to who he is.
You on the other hand have no scripture that states Christ is the one true God, or that a person must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved. You can reason scripture to show what you believe, but I have the plain text, you don't

Silas,

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” - Revelation 1:8 NASB

 

[silas42]

Silas,

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” - Revelation 1:8 NASB

You're simply proving my point Bryan

But I would add, for someone of your age you do diligently study the word and obviously take it very seriously, which is good to see.

 

[Bryancampbell]

You're simply proving my point Bryan

But I would add, for someone of your age you do diligently study the word and obviously take it very seriously, which is good to see.

I see so you're wanting me to provide scripture that says you must believe Jesus to be saved...John 3:16 lol God the Son.

I'm just trying to seek the truth through the Lord's Word. But I'm concerned about anyone believe it's not required to believe Jesus is God for salvation. It's a matter to be discussed.

 

[silas42]

I. But I'm concerned about anyone believe it's not required to believe Jesus is God for salvation. It's a matter to be discussed.

Then lets specifically discuss it.
Did you know Bryan, that huge amounts of people who attend Trinitarian churches simply and solely believe Christ is the Son of God, not God Himself? My own sister is part of a ministry team in her own church, and very friendly with the minister's wife, she simply sees Christ as the Son of God. A friend of mine who has attended Trinitarian churches for over 40 years was amazed when I told him official Trinitarian doctrine was you must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved. He replied.
'It's strange they don't tell us that in sermons.'
A couple of Godly Christians I know, w]
ho have given up good jobs in the service of the Lord and run soup kitchens for the homeless, and attended Trinitarian churches all their lives looked horrified when I told them people on the internet openly state you must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved.
Do you believe these are isolated cases Bryan? I can assure you they are not.

So if you are concerned that a person would believe they could be a Christian without having to believe Jesus is God Himself, why are you not concerned the ordained ministers won't preach that from their pulpits? Don't you believe every minister has the solemn duty/obligation to plainly state salvational belief f4rom the pulpit so no one can misunderstand the truth(as they see it)
But you cannot respond to this most important point can you, in truth you'd be in an impossible situation. The real truth is, those who believe a person must accept Christ is God Himself to be saved are in a tiny minority of Christendom, though obviously on a website driven by theological discussion that minority is much larger than outside of cyberspace. But how many on this website have actually stated a person must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved? Very, very few it seems to me
Bryan, don't just theologise, think of what I have written here, and reflect on it,

 

[GreenNnice]

Silas,

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” - Revelation 1:8 NASB

You're simply proving my point Bryan

But I would add, for someone of your age you do diligently study the word and obviously take it very seriously, which is good to see.

No, BC is not proving your point, sile, however, He is proving this. Jesus comes down from the clouds and also 'who is' is Jesus, is God, and, is Holy Spirit, too, for that matter.

The child that is born on Earth (Jesus) is called 'Everlasting Father,' and, 'Mighty God.'

Three persons, eternally existent, silas --- Jesus, Holy Spirit, God, are One, are one, they just are, they just were, and, they just always will be, brother

 

[silas42]

No, BC is not proving your point, sile, however, He is proving this. Jesus comes down from the clouds and also 'who is' is Jesus, is God, and, is Holy Spirit, too, for that matter.

The child that is born on Earth (Jesus) is called 'Everlasting Father,' and, 'Mighty God.'

Three persons, eternally existent, silas --- Jesus, Holy Spirit, God, are One, are one, they just are, they just were, and, they just always will be, brother

Ah I see, you're a oneness Pentecostal, only they believe Jesus is the Father I think, but Trinitarians don't
However, I'm only discussing one thing here, but thank you for your comment

 

[Bryancampbell]

Then lets specifically discuss it.
Did you know Bryan, that huge amounts of people who attend Trinitarian churches simply and solely believe Christ is the Son of God, not God Himself? My own sister is part of a ministry team in her own church, and very friendly with the minister's wife, she simply sees Christ as the Son of God. A friend of mine who has attended Trinitarian churches for over 40 years was amazed when I told him official Trinitarian doctrine was you must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved. He replied.
'It's strange they don't tell us that in sermons.'
A couple of Godly Christians I know, w]
ho have given up good jobs in the service of the Lord and run soup kitchens for the homeless, and attended Trinitarian churches all their lives looked horrified when I told them people on the internet openly state you must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved.
Do you believe these are isolated cases Bryan? I can assure you they are not.

So if you are concerned that a person would believe they could be a Christian without having to believe Jesus is God Himself, why are you not concerned the ordained ministers won't preach that from their pulpits? Don't you believe every minister has the solemn duty/obligation to plainly state salvational belief f4rom the pulpit so no one can misunderstand the truth(as they see it)
But you cannot respond to this most important point can you, in truth you'd be in an impossible situation. The real truth is, those who believe a person must accept Christ is God Himself to be saved are in a tiny minority of Christendom, though obviously on a website driven by theological discussion that minority is much larger than outside of cyberspace. But how many on this website have actually stated a person must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved? Very, very few it seems to me
Bryan, don't just theologise, think of what I have written here, and reflect on it,

Silas, I honestly don't know what you think is truth, because even the ministers should teach it. If a person accepts a man with no divine nature, for their salvation, then their salvation is man based, not God. And this argument is void, it makes you think, which you have stated in paraphrasing, "is it their solemnly ordained duty to teach men and women this". Not just from the pulpit but even the congregation stands like a virdict, and with a verdict you have some who hear it in a bias term or accept the wrong intention, some who actual stand for truth. Let's take our focus off cyberspace. Pretty much in almost every church I been to, they believe and teach Jesus is God in the flesh. Without teaching such, by saying He is a man from God with no divinity but believing he is the Son of God (that doesn't make sense) makes the person believe that by bloodshed and rejection of humanity was humanity saved. That teaching will hold those who preach in the pulpit the opposite, are held accountable before God. They need to elaborate who the Son of God is, otherwise what is the virgin birth? How did Jesus live holy? Where did Jesus come from? And many more questions will confuse the believer who wasn't taught this theology. "God is truth, the bible is the truth about the truth, theology is the truth about the truth about the truth."- Richard Wurmbrand

 

[silas42]

Silas, I honestly don't know what you think is truth, because even the ministers should teach it. If a person accepts a man with no divine nature, for their salvation, then their salvation is man based, not God. And this argument is void, it makes you think, which you have stated in paraphrasing, "is it their solemnly ordained duty to teach men and women this". Not just from the pulpit but even the congregation stands like a virdict, and with a verdict you have some who hear it in a bias term or accept the wrong intention, some who actual stand for truth. Let's take our focus off cyberspace. Pretty much in almost every church I been to, they believe and teach Jesus is God in the flesh. Without teaching such, by saying He is a man from God with no divinity but believing he is the Son of God (that doesn't make sense) makes the person believe that by bloodshed and rejection of humanity was humanity saved. That teaching will hold those who preach in the pulpit the opposite, are held accountable before God. They need to elaborate who the Son of God is, otherwise what is the virgin birth? How did Jesus live holy? Where did Jesus come from? And many more questions will confuse the believer who wasn't taught this theology. "God is truth, the bible is the truth about the truth, theology is the truth about the truth about the truth."- Richard Wurmbrand

Bryan

Nowhere in the bible is it stated you must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved. Neither do the ministers preach it from the pulpit, it is preached here on the internet. So why doesn't the bible state/demand such a belief? That's a question isn't it.
Only human reasoning demands it
I have twice on this thread stated I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, he is higher than the angels, only the Father is greater than the Son. The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ, he is a true reflection of the Father. He died for our sins at Calvary and if we repent of our sin and ask him into our lives as Saviour we are saved. That, according to scripture is easily salvational belief. You have to ask yourself, what is your bottom line, man made reasoning, or the plain words of the bible?

 

[cfultz3]

I'll make it simple for you. I'm not going to go round the houses with theology/personal opinion, just give you the plain scripture, all I ask is that you do the same.

Now this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John17:3

If anyone believes Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God
1John 4:15

There is my biblical support for my belief

All I ask from you, is as equally plain biblical support where it states a person must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved.
If you cannot supply it, it is my plain scripture against your personal opinions. You are fallible, scripture is not. Of course, if you can supply a text that states eternal life hinges on believing Christ is God, you'll be contradicting Christ's words, but then, after reading many comments in this debate, I expect you'll have good reason for doing so
I await your scriptural responses, not personal thoughts

Is this not plain Scripture:

The LORD is our Savior (OT).

Jesus is our Savior (NT).

If it is said that the LORD is our Savior and that Jesus is our Savior, then does it not also say that Jesus the Christ (Savior) is the only means by which we can see the Father? It is, therefore, conclusive that one must believe that our Lord, Jesus Christ in the New Testament, must be believed that He is that same Savior, seeing that if one does not believe the LORD to be our Savior then they have another savior.

As to you awaiting my Scriptural responses, I but ask that you show me my non-scriptural replies. Surely, we know not to take anyone's words but go and search ourselves and in it we shall find life.

You quote verses and I quote words from the same source, how then can you say I write opinions.

But as to John 17:3: did you take the opportunity to see what else is said in Scripture concerning the Word, the Messenger of the Lord? Did you notice that the Word, as the Son, is the Lord of all lords? Did you notice that He speaks from Heaven? Or, how it was He who went before the Hebrews in the wilderness? Or, how it is He who carries the sword of the LORD? Or, how He Himself said to Hagar that He will multiply her seed? Or, how it was He who spoke to Abram concerning Isaac and said from Heaven, "By myself have I sworn says the LORD........". Or, how it was Him yet again, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush? Or, how it was He who withstood Balaam and said, "Your way is perverse before me"? Furthermore, how He says that it was Him who brought...the Hebrews.... out of the land of Egypt and brought...them... to the land "I sworn unto your fathers" or "I said, I will never break my covenant with you"? Still He continues, "you have not obeyed my Voice...by which I SAID".......

This Word, this Messenger, is the same Messenger God the Father sent with a final Message to the world....Give heed, the Father sent the Word, the same Word who is our Creator.

Don't take my words for it, go and search yourself.....

 

[silas42]

Is this not plain Scripture:

The LORD is our Savior (OT).

Jesus is our Savior (NT).

If it is said that the LORD is our Savior and that Jesus is our Savior, then does it not also say that Jesus the Christ (Savior) is the only means by which we can see the Father? It is, therefore, conclusive that one must believe that our Lord, Jesus Christ in the New Testament, must be believed that He is that same Savior, seeing that if one does not believe the LORD to be our Savior then they have another savior.

As to you awaiting my Scriptural responses, I but ask that you show me my non-scriptural replies. Surely, we know not to take anyone's words but go and search ourselves and in it we shall find life.

You quote verses and I quote words from the same source, how then can you say I write opinions.

But as to John 17:3: did you take the opportunity to see what else is said in Scripture concerning the Word, the Messenger of the Lord? Did you notice that the Word, as the Son, is the Lord of all lords? Did you notice that He speaks from Heaven? Or, how it was He who went before the Hebrews in the wilderness? Or, how it is He who carries the sword of the LORD? Or, how He Himself said to Hagar that He will multiply her seed? Or, how it was He who spoke to Abram concerning Isaac and said from Heaven, "By myself have I sworn says the LORD........". Or, how it was Him yet again, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush? Or, how it was He who withstood Balaam and said, "Your way is perverse before me"? Furthermore, how He says that it was Him who brought...the Hebrews.... out of the land of Egypt and brought...them... to the land "I sworn unto your fathers" or "I said, I will never break my covenant with you"? Still He continues, "you have not obeyed my Voice...by which I SAID".......

This Word, this Messenger, is the same Messenger God the Father sent with a final Message to the world....Give heed, the Father sent the Word, the same Word who is our Creator.

Don't take my words for it, go and search yourself.....

As I thought, you have no scripture that opposes my plain scripture, only your personal thoughts and conclusions, they are fallible, the plain word is not

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How can Jesus not be GOD? Timothy called him 'my GOD', and Jesus did not rebuke him for idolatry. Instead he said that those who believed such without seeing the resurrected Jesus were blessed.

Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” John 20:28-29
​

 

[GreenNnice]

Ah I see, you're a oneness Pentecostal, only they believe Jesus is the Father I think, but Trinitarians don't
However, I'm only discussing one thing here, but thank you for your comment

OK, let's dig deeper, the Lord leads, brother sile

Let's look at the whole of the verses of your one contention verse (John 17:3) :

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 'Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." John 17:1-5


Do you see anything in this verse that would lead you to believe that Jesus is speaking to Himself and He is God Himself. Think 'glory.'

Who is Jesus giving glory to?

Who is Jesus asking to glorify Him?

Doesn't another verse in Scripture say : Whatever you do, give all the glory to God ?

 

[Bryancampbell]

Bryan

Nowhere in the bible is it stated you must believe Christ is God Himself to be saved. Neither do the ministers preach it from the pulpit, it is preached here on the internet. So why doesn't the bible state/demand such a belief? That's a question isn't it.
Only human reasoning demands it
I have twice on this thread stated I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, he is higher than the angels, only the Father is greater than the Son. The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ, he is a true reflection of the Father. He died for our sins at Calvary and if we repent of our sin and ask him into our lives as Saviour we are saved. That, according to scripture is easily salvational belief. You have to ask yourself, what is your bottom line, man made reasoning, or the plain words of the bible?

It's all over the bible, you just don't wanna see it is what it seems like, the bottom line is you understanding how you received salvation. So in your statement of belief, please tell me what does Son of God mean if you don't think it means the acclamation of God in the flesh?

Define Son of God...because like you said Jesus told us if we believe Him as the Son of God and his life, death, and resurrection we are saved.

 

[silas42]

It's all over the bible, you just don't wanna see it is what it seems like, the bottom line is you understanding how you received salvation. So in your statement of belief, please tell me what does Son of God mean if you don't think it means the acclamation of God in the flesh?

Define Son of God...because like you said Jesus told us if we believe Him as the Son of God and his life, death, and resurrection we are saved.

He is the holy Son of God, the only begotten Son of God, the fulnesss of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ. He reigns now in Heaven and on earth for the Father has put everything under his feet If you want a biological/physiological explanation of the person of Christ, you need to speak to someone who will try and oblige, scripture does not demand or oblige us to enter such realms.
You need to remember something. The Holy Spirit dwells in each and every Christian, and He assures us in our S[pirit as to the acceptable way to view Christ, and according to scripture we must simply believe He is the Son of God, as the vast majority of Christendom accept