Discussion on the End Times

[eternally-gratefull]

1/ This [separation] is My doing, said the Lord. 1 Kings 12:24

2 & 3/ Ezekiel 4:4-6 decrees 390 years for the ten tribes of Israel and 40 years for the two tribes of Judah.
But Leviticus 26:18 multiplied the 390 X 7 and Leviticus 28:24 & 28 multiplies the 40 X 7 X 7, making a total of 2730 years exile for Israel and 1960 years of exile for Judah.
Judah has returned, since the Roman exile, but the House of Israel remains scattered among the nations, although from their exile by Assyria; circa 722 - 715 BC, their time is up about now.

4/ Yes; Ezekiel 37 awaits fulfillment. Dramatic events will happen to bring this about.
We see in Ezekiel 20:34-38, Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:24-26, that only the faithful Christian people will go to live in all of the holy Land.
Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, the holy people of God are there when the Anti-Christ starts his short time of world domination.

Judah has not returned, Jerusalem is still trodden down, and the temple is still gone, Daniel 9 states in the end,God will answer daniels prayer, he will remember his promises, he will remember the city and sanctuary, he will remember the land.

Isreal is not restored until the time of the gentile is completed, that is not accomplished until Jesus returns

 

[BenjaminN]

Roman's describes the Jews as grafted back in.
The 144 k are vividly described as covenant Jews and jewish lineage.

You are not factoring in the entire picture.

Revelation 2 (ESV)

9 "'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'

Jewish Israelites / Messianic Christian Jews = Some of the adopted and ethnically intermingled physical descendants of the Southern Kingdom of Judah in Judea = Judah = 3 Tribes of Judah / Benjamin / Levi
Non-Jewish Israelites / Christians Ephraim = Some of the adopted and ethnically intermingled physical descendants of the scattered Northern Kingdom Israel = Ephraim / Joseph = (9 + 2 half tribes = ) 10 Tribes of Reuben / Gad / Asher / Naphtali / half tribe of Manasseh / Simeon / Issachar / Zebulun / Joseph (Joseph = half tribe of Ephraim) / Dan (tribe of Dan will not be represented in the 144 000 of Revelation 7:4, although they inherit their covenant land in Ezekiel 48:1.)


Revelation 7 (ESV)

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.


Ezekiel 48 (ESV)

1 "These are the names of the tribes: Beginning at the northern extreme, beside the way of Hethlon to Lebo-hamath, as far as Hazar-enan (which is on the northern border of Damascus over against Hamath), and extending from the east side to the west, Dan, one portion. "


Ezekiel 37 (ESV)

19 say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand.

24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore.

 

[Truth7t7]

Discussion for the end times? 'tis history, God's people now look for His coming.
After that there is nothing else, the earth is destroyed by intense heat (whatever form that may take) 2 Peter 3:10

REJOICE

Your (Partial Preterist) Teaching of 70AD fulfillemnt of Matthew 24:15 (Daniels AOD), And Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation) is (False) Boettner, Riddlebarger, and Sproul, are Wrong.

These are future events unfulfilled

 

[Truth7t7]

Judah has not returned, Jerusalem is still trodden down, and the temple is still gone, Daniel 9 states in the end,God will answer daniels prayer, he will remember his promises, he will remember the city and sanctuary, he will remember the land.

Isreal is not restored until the time of the gentile is completed, that is not accomplished until Jesus returns

Where in the scripture does it state that God is going to restore human beings based upon Ethnic or National heritage?

It dosent, God is no respector of persons, there is one people of God, the Church.

There are future remnant chosen elect Jews, that will be saved and Added to the church, outside of this, God has no plan.

 

[BenjaminN]

Where in the scripture does it state that God is going to restore human beings based upon Ethnic or National heritage?

It dosent, God is no respector of persons, there is one people of God, the Church.

There are future remnant chosen elect Jews, that will be saved and Added to the church, outside of this, God has no plan.

God's covenant and restored covenant includes all the nations of the earth, through his promises through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their descendants have been scattered and intermingled, with all the nations of the earth - even the "jews" are nowadays not at all a pure ethnic group (descended only from the tribes of Judah / Benjamin / Levi), but are like the arabs (meaning mixture of peoples), also of mix race.


Deuteronomy 28 (ESV)

64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

You are right that the Church is the gathered, restored People of Israel, with a Davidic King from Israel's / Jacob's tribe of Judah, called Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah.

 

[Keras]

The new Covenant has nothing to do either with ethnic Israel, nor with mankind in general, but is only for the Spiritual Israelite individuals; the true Overcomers, who are born again faithful Christian believers; the ones who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

The Bible’s restoration prophesies do not relate to those who call themselves Jews, or to the citizens of the State of Israel, for they are a part of the world that Jesus spoke about in Revelation 2:20-23, John 15:6, Matthew 21:33-46 and Romans 2:29

Bible teaching could not be clearer: it is we Christians who are the inheritors of God’s Promises to the Patriarchs, Galatians 3:26-29, and it cannot be that God will give His holy Land to anyone who rejects His Son and fails to obey the Commandments.

 

[Absolutely]

"The Rest Are Blind" "2/3 Will Be Cut Off And Die"

In Big Bold Red

Romans 11:5-8KJV
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.


Zechariah 14:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Read what it written

You are wrong

Israel is saved in the end.
Gods covenant Jews.
They come to the wedding supper in heaven in rev 14.
".....but you saved the best wine for last"

Very plain and vivid in Roman's. The jews are TEMPORARILY cut off till the times of the gentiles is full.

Then as eloquently portrayed, they are grafted back in.

 

[Absolutely]

The new Covenant has nothing to do either with ethnic Israel, nor with mankind in general, but is only for the Spiritual Israelite individuals; the true Overcomers, who are born again faithful Christian believers; the ones who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

The Bible’s restoration prophesies do not relate to those who call themselves Jews, or to the citizens of the State of Israel, for they are a part of the world that Jesus spoke about in Revelation 2:20-23, John 15:6, Matthew 21:33-46 and Romans 2:29

Bible teaching could not be clearer: it is we Christians who are the inheritors of God’s Promises to the Patriarchs, Galatians 3:26-29, and it cannot be that God will give His holy Land to anyone who rejects His Son and fails to obey the Commandments.

Are you black separatist?
Nation of islam?

Just asking....not saying you are

 

[AndyMaleh]

Recently I talked with two pastors, both graduates of American seminaries. They are both dedicated men, who have come out of their own culture to work overseas with the local and expatriate people.

Question: We see some of your writings on Bible prophecy and end times events. Explain to us what you think is going to happen.

Keraz: There are five prophecies that specify the Negev desert as the focus of a terrible event that will cause destruction over virtually the entire Middle East (1)

Nothing to match it has occurred in the past, and seeing the current political situation, we can now see how this may take place.

Iran will attempt to deliver a nuclear weapon to destroy Israel’s nuclear plant at Dimona, in the Negev. (2) Also they will target Israel’s cities, excepting for Jerusalem.

This action will bring forth the wrath of the Lord. (3) The Jewish State of Israel, too will be destroyed and its current inhabitants killed or displaced. (4)

The Lord will use this event to carry out His judgement against the nations, including Judah. (5) It will be the Day, mentioned many times in the Bible, as the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, (6) and will be the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. (7)

After a period of time, perhaps only a few months, the Lord will call His people, all the righteous Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, to gather and enter all of the holy Land. As the new nation of Beulah , where He will bless them with prosperity and peace. (8) They will rebuild the Temple, as described in Ezekiel 40-36, and send out 144,000 missionaries to preach the coming Kingdom of God. (9)

Later, a Northern confederation of nations will be motivated to attack Beulah; But the Lord will totally destroy them. (10)

Also, after the worldwide devastation of the Lord’s terrible Day of fiery wrath, the surviving world leaders will decide to form a one world government, which will soon be taken over by a powerful and charismatic dictator. Later, he will sign a seven year peace and security agreement with God’s people , but after 3½ years, he will break that treaty and invade Beulah. This will begin the Tribulation (11) and after the final 3½ years of this age, the Lord Jesus will return and commence His Millennium reign. (12)



Pastors reply: Yes, we live in a dark and fallen world. Jesus came because of this sin. He believed in a Day of judgement for this evil world. When Jesus went to the Cross, He said ‘Now is the judgement for this world”. John 12:31 He understood the Cross to be the Day of Judgement. Note that the sky was darkened and the earth shaken then.

This is the basis for the substitutionary death of Christ and this is how the Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled by Him. The whole point of Jesus coming to the earth was to take God’s wrath upon the Cross. The Cross and the hope of our resurrection is what the Christian faith is all about.

Keraz: I think that it’s sad that you don’t consider prophecy as worthy of study.

In 2 Peter 1:19, he says that we do well to attend to the prophets, and in Revelation 1:3 a blessing is given to those who ‘take to heart’ what is written there.

Final fulfilment of God’s judgement must still wait for the end times, as Paul says in Hebrews 10:27 and Peter in 2 Peter 3:10.

References;

(1) Ezekiel 20:46, Ezekiel 21:4, Isaiah 9:18-19, Jeremiah 13:19-21, Jeremiah 21:14.

(2) Isaiah 21:2, Isaiah 22:6.

(3) Ezekiel 7:14, Psalms 7:12-16, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Judah- Zechariah 13:8-9, Iran- Jeremiah 49:34-39, Syria- Isaiah 17:1-4, Palestinians- Ezekiel 25:15-17, Arabia- Jeremiah 49:28-39, Jordan- Ezekiel 25:1-11, Egypt- Isaiah 19:1-15.

(4) Jeremiah 12:14, Obadiah 12-16, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Jeremiah 8:5-12.

(5) Amos 1:1-18 & 2:1-5, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

(6) Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 33:10-12, Jeremiah 30:23-24, Malachi 4:1-3, Zechariah 9:13-15.

(7) Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 6: 12-17, Revelation 14:18-20

(8) Isaiah 62:1-5. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 32:37-43, Isaiah 14:1, Psalms 69:36

(9) Revelation 7:3-8, Revelation 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19.

(10) Ezekiel chapters 38 &39, Joel 2:20.

(11) Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21-22, Revelation 8 to 19:11

(12) Revelation 20:4-6, Hosea 6:2, Luke 13:32

This is overly alarmist pessimistic thinking not accounting for God’s grace and the fact that Iranians are God’s people too just like everybody else (after all God created them, didn’t he?). You can always pray to God that Iranians behave well in accordance to God’s commandments even if they’re not Christians. I don’t like Iranians or any middle easterners by the way, but I also don’t feel threatened by them (Except when they come to North America since Muslims don’t belong here). I think the Israeli Military/Mossad have also been pretty bad “in the name of survival”, so they deserve anything bad coming to them at this point, and I’m pretty sure God is not on their side. That said, I don’t believe a nuclear bomb is gonna hit them, especially not from a nation with zero technology like Iran (I mean they just live in deserts and ride on camels like all of the Arab/Muslim world, for Christ’s sake). And, if the Israelis are too afraid, they can just leave. Israel is not God’s land anymore. Israel is now the Kingdom of God anywhere on Earth, and has been so since Jesus Christ’s arrival two thousand years ago. That’s why I never get why any Christians support the “State of Israel“. It’s an unbiblical “Las Vegas” version and mockery of the Biblical Israel and against Jesus Christ (probably much worse than sodom and gomorra). Also, Jesus Christ doesn’t need the fake “State of Israel” to return. He has God’s power to return in any way he wants and without people doing anything to prepare for his return. I never fell for the idea of supporting the fake “State of Israel” even if some of my Christian friends in Chicago thought it was biblical under the peer pressure of their pastors. Instead, I succumb to God pressure. The pressure to be upright and good. The “State of Israel“ is not part of that. I think their problems are all fake since they have the money to pack up and leave to Europe and the Americas, which are much nicer anyways, so they always sound just like toddlers complaining to me. By the way, I have had many Jewish girlfriends and Jewish coworkers/business partners, so I do like Jewish people, but don’t think the “State of Israel“ is what’s best for them since it’s not blessed by God and is just stolen land that they accepted without having any right to, in other words illegitimate. I mean, I’ve been offered stolen things before, and I never accepted them. It’s wrong! And, the passing of time doesn’t make it right.

Godspeed.

 

[BenjaminN]

This is overly alarmist pessimistic thinking not accounting for God’s grace and the fact that Iranians are God’s people too just like everybody else (after all God created them, didn’t he?). You can always pray to God that Iranians behave well in accordance to God’s commandments even if they’re not Christians. I don’t like Iranians or any middle easterners by the way, but I also don’t feel threatened by them (Except when they come to North America since Muslims don’t belong here). I think the Israeli Military/Mossad have also been pretty bad “in the name of survival”, so they deserve anything bad coming to them at this point, and I’m pretty sure God is not on their side. That said, I don’t believe a nuclear bomb is gonna hit them, especially not from a nation with zero technology like Iran (I mean they just live in deserts and ride on camels like all of the Arab/Muslim world, for Christ’s sake). And, if the Israelis are too afraid, they can just leave. Israel is not God’s land anymore. Israel is now the Kingdom of God anywhere on Earth, and has been so since Jesus Christ’s arrival two thousand years ago. That’s why I never get why any Christians support the “State of Israel“. It’s an unbiblical “Las Vegas” version and mockery of the Biblical Israel and against Jesus Christ (probably much worse than sodom and gomorra). Also, Jesus Christ doesn’t need the fake “State of Israel” to return. He has God’s power to return in any way he wants and without people doing anything to prepare for his return. I never fell for the idea of supporting the fake “State of Israel” even if some of my Christian friends in Chicago thought it was biblical under the peer pressure of their pastors. Instead, I succumb to God pressure. The pressure to be upright and good. The “State of Israel“ is not part of that. I think their problems are all fake since they have the money to pack up and leave to Europe and the Americas, which are much nicer anyways, so they always sound just like toddlers complaining to me. By the way, I have had many Jewish girlfriends and Jewish coworkers/business partners, so I do like Jewish people, but don’t think the “State of Israel“ is what’s best for them since it’s not blessed by God and is just stolen land that they accepted without having any right to, in other words illegitimate. I mean, I’ve been offered stolen things before, and I never accepted them. It’s wrong! And, the passing of time doesn’t make it right.

Godspeed.

God's covenant promises, to his covenant people (those with Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah as King, who keeps God's commandments) is eternal. Including his covenant land promises. The people who keep his covenant shall inherit the restored land Israel, Jerusalem, heaven and earth / newly created land Israel, Jerusalem, heaven and earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Read what it written

You are wrong

Israel is saved in the end.
Gods covenant Jews.
They come to the wedding supper in heaven in rev 14.
".....but you saved the best wine for last"

Very plain and vivid in Roman's. The jews are TEMPORARILY cut off till the times of the gentiles is full.

Then as eloquently portrayed, they are grafted back in.

Where does this Ethnic Jewish salvation start and end?

Do people with 75% Jewish blood get saved and grafted back in, 50%, 25%, 10%, 1%?

Can't you see how ridiculous your claim is, salvation based upon ethnic blood, and this group of whoever all get saved?

(Real Big Smiles)

 

[Keras]

Are you black separatist?
Nation of islam?

Just asking....not saying you are

I am none of those types.
However I can easily guess what you are: a believer in the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
You hate anyone who shows that the Jewish State of Israel will be destroyed and only a remnant saved, because that truth also destroys the 'rapture'. Tough; you will just have to get on and endure until the end, like everyone.

Thanks T7t7, we do agree on the issue of who is the real Israel.

 

[Absolutely]

I am none of those types.
However I can easily guess what you are: a believer in the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
You hate anyone who shows that the Jewish State of Israel will be destroyed and only a remnant saved, because that truth also destroys the 'rapture'. Tough; you will just have to get on and endure until the end, like everyone.

Thanks T7t7, we do agree on the issue of who is the real Israel.

Woah
Stepped on some toes.
Invoked a tad bit of wrath.
Didn't mean to do that.

But yes the pretrib rapture is the only position that fits and is easily defended.

 

[Absolutely]

Where does this Ethnic Jewish salvation start and end?

Do people with 75% Jewish blood get saved and grafted back in, 50%, 25%, 10%, 1%?

Can't you see how ridiculous your claim is, salvation based upon ethnic blood, and this group of whoever all get saved?

(Real Big Smiles)

Ruth is in Jesus blood line.
Under your logic ,Jesus was not Jewish.

Tell it to God how rediculous his choosing of 144k are not really Jewish.

They never were 100% jewish by lineage. All the tribes married outside their roots.

 

[Absolutely]

I am none of those types.
However I can easily guess what you are: a believer in the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
You hate anyone who shows that the Jewish State of Israel will be destroyed and only a remnant saved, because that truth also destroys the 'rapture'. Tough; you will just have to get on and endure until the end, like everyone.

Thanks T7t7, we do agree on the issue of who is the real Israel.

""You hate anyone who shows that the Jewish State of Israel will be destroyed and only a remnant saved, because that truth also destroys the 'rapture'. Tough; you will just have to get on and endure until the end, like everyone. ""

Lol
The ac kills all refusing the mark.
There are no Christians "enduring to the end" running from cave to cave.
That alone destroys the false postrib rapture.

But the main folly lies in your starting point and prism.

Once you get those 2 aligned you will begin to see clearly.

 

[Runningman]

Woah
Stepped on some toes.
Invoked a tad bit of wrath.
Didn't mean to do that.

But yes the pretrib rapture is the only position that fits and is easily defended.

Pre-tribulation rapture is a false doctrine as far as doctrines go. I can see how pre-trib can be inferred, but good doctrines remain Biblically consistent through the scriptures: pre-tribulation doesn't do that.

I wouldn't attempt to defend pre-tribulationism just for fun to have some sport in debate. Why? Because it's an easily debunked position within a matter of one or two supporting verses. Off the top of my head, Matthew 24 and some of Matthew 25 is sufficient to lay to rest the pre-tribulation rapture theory.

I do think most people who support pre-trib do have good intentions and are fully persuaded in their mind what they say is true.

I still maintain that it is a false doctrine and should be reexamined by sincere Bible students why that is.

 

[Absolutely]

Where does this Ethnic Jewish salvation start and end?

Do people with 75% Jewish blood get saved and grafted back in, 50%, 25%, 10%, 1%?

Can't you see how ridiculous your claim is, salvation based upon ethnic blood, and this group of whoever all get saved?

(Real Big Smiles)

Btw rev 14 if you read it shows only a portion of the Jews come to Jesus.
The 144k are christian Jews
The main jewish harvest follow the 144k
Could include some gentiles. Your so hung up on ethnicity you are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

God wrote the bible. I just believe what he wrote.
Real big smiles.

 

[Absolutely]

Pre-tribulation rapture is a false doctrine as far as doctrines go. I can see how pre-trib can be inferred, but good doctrines remain Biblically consistent through the scriptures: pre-tribulation doesn't do that.

I wouldn't attempt to defend pre-tribulationism just for fun to have some sport in debate. Why? Because it's an easily debunked position within a matter of one or two supporting verses. Off the top of my head, Matthew 24 and some of Matthew 25 is sufficient to lay to rest the pre-tribulation rapture theory.

I do think most people who support pre-trib do have good intentions and are fully persuaded in their mind what they say is true.

I still maintain that it is a false doctrine and should be reexamined by sincere Bible students why that is.

Lol.
Mat 24 has noah in a preflood dynamic
And mat 25 has a vivid depiction of the rapture.

Nothing postrib about it.

Your error stems from forcing noah into a false dynamic of "after the flood noah was delivered" (raptured).
Nope.
Postrib rapture has never fit.
Never will.

Lot .....after the judgement....was escorted out of sodom.

Nope.

Psssst...BEFORE JUDGEMENT.
Jesus used those pre judgement dynamics to vividly depict the rapture.

....right there in your only scriptures...mat 24

Take a look.

 

[Absolutely]

""just for fun to have some sport in debate. Why? Because it's an easily debunked position within a matter of one or two supporting verses""

Ok show me your one or two verses that supposedly do that.

I will wait.

 

[Absolutely]

Here is the basis for runningmans view from another thread;

""Typical response from the pre-trib crowd is that the return of Christ and rapture are separate events.

This idea that there is a bonus prize pre-trib rapture for a select few is also no where to be found in the Bible as far as I can tell.

The Bible is clear that the last trumpet is when the dead are raised, Christ returns and the living are raptured.""

No unpacking or study. No reconciling of the separate gathering of the bride.
You just ASSUME there can not be a separate event.
Your entire view is off of assumption. Not bible.
That is why you guys can not unpack mat 24 or 25.

Until you can actually look at the verses depicting a separate gathering you are only fooling those in your camp.
The verses are there
They ain't going away.

That is why you guys
Avoid

Ignore

Cherry pick.
And generalize


Facts;
1 The ac kills all w/o the mark
2 The dead precede the living
Postribbers have that reversed by ignoring a mid trib gathering of rev 14 .
3 The bride is taken to the chamber in heaven (mat 25)
4 The ripe fruit taken to heaven as well as the 144k mid trib (rev 14)
5 Both lot and noah are pretrib deliverences
6 Jesus prophecies the feast in heaven at the last supper.
7 Rev 19 says the bride has become the wife....all in heaven on white horses.

8 The one taken/left is peacetime with 2 believers in bed ,working,relaxing etc and in union with "before the flood"( how rediculous to think a believer is in bed with a non believer)

You guys depend on out of context.
Your foundation depends on context removed.
Show me one postrib rapture teacher that addresses our verses.
Or one that is bride/heaven centered. (Jesus/bride centered)
None are
IOW,what God leaves the church with in the last sentences of the bible is "the spirit and the bride say come....come Lord Jesus "

Postribbers say "no. It can not happen "