Dispensationalism...
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There was a progression of 'thought' that needed to take place for the "fullness of times" to develop for the timing of the Word becoming flesh.
"And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ." Ephesians 1:10
Concerning the LORD's response to those Jews who claimed "we were never in bondage".
What was His answer to them?
Notice that He never spoke of their history/origins other then they being of the seed of Abraham.
His answer was simple and straightforward:
a.) You seek to kill me.
b.) My word cannot be found in you.
c.) Abraham would not do this.
i hate to disappoint you but the Bible is a children's book written for His Children.
The heart of the matter is what matters to God.
Peace
"And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ." Ephesians 1:10
Concerning the LORD's response to those Jews who claimed "we were never in bondage".
What was His answer to them?
Notice that He never spoke of their history/origins other then they being of the seed of Abraham.
His answer was simple and straightforward:
a.) You seek to kill me.
b.) My word cannot be found in you.
c.) Abraham would not do this.
i hate to disappoint you but the Bible is a children's book written for His Children.
The heart of the matter is what matters to God.
Peace
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You may have missed my question or mistook me as if I was an dispensational who adheres to Darby's teaching so I suppose an question more to the point would be better,,, in Deuteronomy 2 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 2&version=KJV the children of Esau were living in mount Seir and so they were not in Egypt nor were they among the children of Abraham who were delivered out of bondage in Egypt,,,does the Passover apply to them and were they given and suppose to accomplish the Law given by Moses?
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The passage applies to them and everyone irregardless of origin and the law of Moses - thus why i said "hate to disappoint you"
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone.
How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
The heart of the Matter is what matters to the Heart of God.
The life is in the blood and the heart is the vehicle by which the blood circulates throughout the body.
a.) "The goodness and kindness of God leads a man to repentance."
b.) “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion"
c.) "They always go astray in their heart,"
Listen to your heart
When Jesus is calling for you.
Listen to your heart
There's nothing else you can do.
I don't know where you're going
And I don't know why,
But listen to your heart
Before you tell Jesus goodbye.
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone.
How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
The heart of the Matter is what matters to the Heart of God.
The life is in the blood and the heart is the vehicle by which the blood circulates throughout the body.
a.) "The goodness and kindness of God leads a man to repentance."
b.) “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion"
c.) "They always go astray in their heart,"
Listen to your heart
When Jesus is calling for you.
Listen to your heart
There's nothing else you can do.
I don't know where you're going
And I don't know why,
But listen to your heart
Before you tell Jesus goodbye.
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God says they are beloved, God says they are chosen, God says His gifts and His calling are irrevocable.
Paul says they have stumbled but they have not fallen, Paul says they are rejected but that they will attain to fullness. Paul says they are cast away but they will be received.
Paul says all Israel will be saved.
Of Jerusalem Jesus said it will be trampled down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Scripture says Israel has been hardened in part until the fulness of the Gentiles are brought in then all Israel shall be saved.
The scriptures you quote refer to that generation of Jews.
If God reneges His promises to the Jews [which by no means have been fulfilled] why might He not renege on YOU.
God forbid that God would ever renege on His good promise.
Paul says they have stumbled but they have not fallen, Paul says they are rejected but that they will attain to fullness. Paul says they are cast away but they will be received.
Paul says all Israel will be saved.
Of Jerusalem Jesus said it will be trampled down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Scripture says Israel has been hardened in part until the fulness of the Gentiles are brought in then all Israel shall be saved.
The scriptures you quote refer to that generation of Jews.
If God reneges His promises to the Jews [which by no means have been fulfilled] why might He not renege on YOU.
God forbid that God would ever renege on His good promise.
It would be difficult to disappoint me unless I was from one of the common camps in eschatology which I stated I was not in post #131. Now I suppose if I were in an camp that needed dispensationism to establish that camps teachings it could be disappointing if it could not be established. in post 131 "I was curious..." As I said in how you might answer(if you saw some under the Law of Moses and others who are not). This could be established from several points in Scripture Acts 15,Acts 21 for instance or the very Scripture you quoted "for when Gentiles who do not have the law..." . If not the end result of the discussion in Acts 15 would have been different but that would make as much sense as requiring the people in Peru to honor Thanks giving or the fourth of July because they would point out that July 4th is not their independence day and their forefathers did not eat turkey with the Indians.
This remark shows a serious lack of understanding of (a) the New Testament, (b) the Old Testament, (c) the character of God, and (d) the character of Christ. To make such a bold statement is also a display of arrogance, and possibly a bias against Jews. So let's go to just one passage in the NT to refute this nonsense -- "lest ye should be wise in your own conceits".
ROMANS 11: THE FUTURE REDEMPTION AND RESTORATION OF ISRAEL
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
ROMANS 11: THE FUTURE REDEMPTION AND RESTORATION OF ISRAEL
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
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Picture, type yes dispensation no.
Yes we are born into sin. You have implied there is no Grace from God . I said nothing about babies going to hell those are you thoughts.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
What exceptions do you read concerning verse 23? Those babies are justified by His Grace . The same Grace He showed in the garden when Adam and Eve did not obey the Law. Same Grace Noah and Moses found.
Yes we are born into sin. You have implied there is no Grace from God . I said nothing about babies going to hell those are you thoughts.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
What exceptions do you read concerning verse 23? Those babies are justified by His Grace . The same Grace He showed in the garden when Adam and Eve did not obey the Law. Same Grace Noah and Moses found.
So and So, I believe we may have been talking past each other or I totally misunderstood you. Would you agree that the Gentile church was never commanded to keep the 7th day sabbath? Yet, there did not seem to be a major issue about Jews who were used to the 7th day sabbath continuing to meet on that day. Many things under the law could have been continued by the Jews without contradicting the shedding of blood for salvation, of which Jesus Christ was that final and totally satisfactory sacrifice. Do we have an agreement here? I insist that Gentiles were NEVER under the law of Moses, but there was God's law from the very beginning and that is what is spoken of in Romans 2:14-16. I do not accept the idea that the Ten Commandments(words) were ever given to Gentiles and yet I believe 9 of the 10 are in agreement with Christian living in the New Covenant. I do not even like the modern hyphenated word "Judeo-Christian" values. I have no agreement whatsoever with the present day 'Jew', because I cannot see an agreement outside recognition of Jesus the Christ/Messiah as the one promised, the eternal Son of God Himself. Israel to me is merely a Christ-rejecting culture group placed in Palestine by the UN. I accept Israel as an ally of the US and a friend, but I see nothing of prophecy fulfillment there, so I am definitely not a Christian Zionest or Dispensationalist.
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Dispensationalism is Destroyed by the Literal Hermeneutic
I left dispensationalism when I began to see the dispensationalist teachings clearly contradicted by the Scriptures. I must only give the references for those interested to read for themselves.
Is Israel still awaiting possession of all the land promised to Abraham?
Josh. 21:43-45; 23:14-16; Ex. 23:27-30; Num. 34:1-12; 1 Kgs. 4:20-21; 2 Chron. 9:22-28; Neh. 9:23-24; 2 Sam. 5:6-10
Jewish Theocracy is ended
Matt. 21:43; Luke 20:16; John 4:21, 23
There is one people of God, not two, Old Covenent Israel continuing in the New Covenant Israel
Rom. 10:12, 13; Eph. 2:15, 16; Col. 3:11; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:7-9; Phil. 3:3; Rom. 2:28, 29
The church is the continuation of Israel, God's people
1 Pet. 2:9, 10 compared to OT Ex.19:6; Deut. 7:6; Isa. 61:6; Heb. 18, 2-24; Gal 6:15, 16 (REB, Weymouth, Williams, Phillips, CEV: these understand the word "and" in the word for word translations)
Old Testament prophesies applied to the church in the New Testament
2 Sam. 7:12; Psa.132:11 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 2:30, 31
Joel 2:28; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 2:16, 17
Zech. 12:9, 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 19:36, 37
Amos 9:11, 12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 15:13-16
Jer. 31:31, 33 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heb. 8:1, 4, 6-8
Mal. 4:5-6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luke 1:17; Matt. 11:13, 14
Also: Acts 3:24, 25; 1 Pet. 1:10-12
Do 'kingdom of heaven' and 'kingdom of God' refer to two different kingdom?
(Using a harmony of the gospels and then the statement of Jesus)
Matt. 4:17, 23 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark 1:14, 15
Matt. 5:3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luke 6:20
Matt. 8:11, 12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luke 13:28, 29
Matt. 13:11 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark 4:11
Jesus used the two terms interchangeably - Matt. 19:23-24
The kingdom came with Jesus and has been growing ever since, kingdom is now
Matt. 4:17; 12:28; 16:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 11:20; 17:20, 21; Col. 1:13;
Christ is king now!
Acts 2:30-36; Rev 1:5; 1 Tim. 6:15; Matt. 2:2; John 1:49; 12:14-16;
Christ reigns now!
1 Pet. 3:22; Matt 28:18; Eph. 1:20, 21; Phil. 2:9, 10
Christians are a new creation and reign now
Rom. 5:17; 8:16, 17; Eph. 2:6; 2 Cor. 5:17
Satan is bound now
John 12:27, 31; 16:11; Matt. 12:28, 29; Heb. 2:14; Luke 10:17,18; Col. 2:14, 15;
Time of second coming is known only to God and we are NOT given signs to know when
Matt. 24:36, 42-44; Rev. 16:15, 16; Acts 1:7; 1 Thess. 5:1, 2
There are just a few of the errors found in dispensationalism that the Scriptures refute. There have always been premillennials, amillennials and postmillennials among good men of God in history. Dispensationalism modernist, and is a perversion of historic premillennialism.
I left dispensationalism when I began to see the dispensationalist teachings clearly contradicted by the Scriptures. I must only give the references for those interested to read for themselves.
Is Israel still awaiting possession of all the land promised to Abraham?
Josh. 21:43-45; 23:14-16; Ex. 23:27-30; Num. 34:1-12; 1 Kgs. 4:20-21; 2 Chron. 9:22-28; Neh. 9:23-24; 2 Sam. 5:6-10
Jewish Theocracy is ended
Matt. 21:43; Luke 20:16; John 4:21, 23
There is one people of God, not two, Old Covenent Israel continuing in the New Covenant Israel
Rom. 10:12, 13; Eph. 2:15, 16; Col. 3:11; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:7-9; Phil. 3:3; Rom. 2:28, 29
The church is the continuation of Israel, God's people
1 Pet. 2:9, 10 compared to OT Ex.19:6; Deut. 7:6; Isa. 61:6; Heb. 18, 2-24; Gal 6:15, 16 (REB, Weymouth, Williams, Phillips, CEV: these understand the word "and" in the word for word translations)
Old Testament prophesies applied to the church in the New Testament
2 Sam. 7:12; Psa.132:11 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 2:30, 31
Joel 2:28; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 2:16, 17
Zech. 12:9, 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 19:36, 37
Amos 9:11, 12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 15:13-16
Jer. 31:31, 33 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heb. 8:1, 4, 6-8
Mal. 4:5-6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luke 1:17; Matt. 11:13, 14
Also: Acts 3:24, 25; 1 Pet. 1:10-12
Do 'kingdom of heaven' and 'kingdom of God' refer to two different kingdom?
(Using a harmony of the gospels and then the statement of Jesus)
Matt. 4:17, 23 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark 1:14, 15
Matt. 5:3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luke 6:20
Matt. 8:11, 12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luke 13:28, 29
Matt. 13:11 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark 4:11
Jesus used the two terms interchangeably - Matt. 19:23-24
The kingdom came with Jesus and has been growing ever since, kingdom is now
Matt. 4:17; 12:28; 16:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 11:20; 17:20, 21; Col. 1:13;
Christ is king now!
Acts 2:30-36; Rev 1:5; 1 Tim. 6:15; Matt. 2:2; John 1:49; 12:14-16;
Christ reigns now!
1 Pet. 3:22; Matt 28:18; Eph. 1:20, 21; Phil. 2:9, 10
Christians are a new creation and reign now
Rom. 5:17; 8:16, 17; Eph. 2:6; 2 Cor. 5:17
Satan is bound now
John 12:27, 31; 16:11; Matt. 12:28, 29; Heb. 2:14; Luke 10:17,18; Col. 2:14, 15;
Time of second coming is known only to God and we are NOT given signs to know when
Matt. 24:36, 42-44; Rev. 16:15, 16; Acts 1:7; 1 Thess. 5:1, 2
There are just a few of the errors found in dispensationalism that the Scriptures refute. There have always been premillennials, amillennials and postmillennials among good men of God in history. Dispensationalism modernist, and is a perversion of historic premillennialism.
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Recently I found what is to my mind, the best understanding of this passage:
"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)
"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)
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Oh boy, you do read selectively. You ignore the fact that verse 5 refers ONLY to the remnant which was a reference to all who had believed in Jesus (not bowed the knee to Baal). In verses 8 and 9, Paul quotes Isa. 29:10, 13, and Ps. 69:22, 23 indicating that God Himself gave them a spirit of stupor because they refused to hear the gospel that called them to Christ. Remember that without the shed blood of Jesus, there is no remissions of sins.
You also ignore Romans 9:6-8 where in verse 8 Paul clarifies that most Jews were children of wrath because they lived in the corruption of the flesh, minus the ones who had believed in the Lord. You also should consider that there are ZERO promises to Israel in the NT because their end was coming when the temple was destroyed, and their city was razed to the ground by the Romans. This was the wrath of God against a nation that killed His Son and persecuted Jewish believers to death (1Thes. 2:14-16).
You also ignore Eph. 2:11-22 where verses 13 and 14 state that the wall of partition was broken down between them and the Gentiles THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS.
Verse 26 demands a question that is basic to every believer, how was all Israel saved (that is, before its destruction in A.D. 70)? The response is easy, BY HAVING FAITH IN CHRIST.
You also ignore Romans 9:6-8 where in verse 8 Paul clarifies that most Jews were children of wrath because they lived in the corruption of the flesh, minus the ones who had believed in the Lord. You also should consider that there are ZERO promises to Israel in the NT because their end was coming when the temple was destroyed, and their city was razed to the ground by the Romans. This was the wrath of God against a nation that killed His Son and persecuted Jewish believers to death (1Thes. 2:14-16).
You also ignore Eph. 2:11-22 where verses 13 and 14 state that the wall of partition was broken down between them and the Gentiles THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS.
Verse 26 demands a question that is basic to every believer, how was all Israel saved (that is, before its destruction in A.D. 70)? The response is easy, BY HAVING FAITH IN CHRIST.
Correction, THEY WERE BELOVED until they were judged in A.D. 70. It is important to read in context. The wrath of God abided in them because they chose to reject God's grace in Jesus Christ and get their salvation through the works of the law. To elevate a nation that cursed the Lord while He was on the cross, is to set oneself against God and His Messiah.
Nowhere do you read in the NT that Israel will be saved at the end of time.
Nowhere do you read in the NT that Israel will be saved at the end of time.