Dispensationalism...

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Beckie

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For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. What sin has an infant committed? Is an infant included in the all? Is an infant capable of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ?
What is your Scripture back up for your post?

You posted this.... We have all the words we need from God in the King James Bible.
and this
When you don’t take the bible literally, you can make it say anything you want.
 

Evmur

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Correction, THEY WERE BELOVED until they were judged in A.D. 70. It is important to read in context. The wrath of God abided in them because they chose to reject God's grace in Jesus Christ and get their salvation through the works of the law. To elevate a nation that cursed the Lord while He was on the cross, is to set oneself against God and His Messiah.

Nowhere do you read in the NT that Israel will be saved at the end of time.
Rubbish

They are enemies of the gospel for your sake but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the father's sake for the gifts and call of God are irrevocable.

You see that it is the enemies of the gospel who are the beloved.

You are the boys who preach predestination and election, don't you know that Paul gets his doctrine from God's dealing with the Jews?
Jacob was chosen before he did right or wrong, before he accepted or rejected Christ. Election is not based upon righteousness or obedience but upon God's foreknowledge and choice only and cannot be revoked.

Moreover their rejection of Christ was predetermined and YOU could not have been saved with it.

It is prophesied by ALL the prophets that in the latter days Israel will be the greatest nation and Jerusalem the greatest city.
 

Evmur

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When I was studying my way out of the dispensationalist confusion, I noticed that the dispensationalists are selective literalists, when it fits their preconceived, man-made theology. For example, read the timing of the book of Revelation. The timing given in Rv 1. 1, 3 is as clear as can be. In verse 1 and 3 it refers to the signified or symbolized prophecy which starts at chapter 4.

v1
"things which must shortly come to pass" KJV, RV
"what must soon take place" RSV, NRSV, REB
"events which must shortly come to pass" Weymouth

v3
"for the time is at hand" KJV, RV
"for the time is near" RSV, NRSV
"for the time of fulfilment is near" REB
"for its fulfilment is now close at hand" Weymouth

That is at the beginning of Revelation and then that timing is repeated in the last chapter of Revelation, 22:6, 10. Changing "shortly" or "soon" in v1 into "quickly" or "with speed" does not solve the dispensationalists problem because of v3. Starting in chapter 11, reference is made to the temple without any hint it no longer exists which is hard to understand if the temple had been destroyed 25 years previously. I believe not only was Revelation written prior to 70 AD, but I believe the entire NT was written before 70 AD. I DO LOOK FORWARD TO 'THE LAST DAY' WITH THE RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT! The last day is yet future.

It is inconsistent literalism to take the 1000 years in Revelation 20 and then try to explain away the clear timing by saying 'a thousand years are as a day to God'. These type contradictions while trying to claim a consistent literalism exposed the many errors of dispensationalism to me. It is Just like trying to insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9 without any context to justify that; just so it fits into the man-made theology. I was taught that we wait on the millennium for Jesus Christ to be king on the throne of David. Yet, Peter makes it quite clear that David, speaking as a prophet, spoke of the ascension and sitting at the right hand of the Father: Acts 2:29-36, where he now reigns.
In Revelations John was carried in the Spirit to the Lord's day ... it wasn't Sunday [how quaint] it is the Day of the Lord ... then the time will be at hand.
 

Evmur

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We are discussing the doctrine of dispensations which in my view is deceptive because it's hardly 200 years old. Not biblical!
pre tribulation rapture is 200 years old economies and administrations or dispensations were recognised from primitive.

Paul received a dispensation.
 

Evmur

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When it comes to theological systems, I try to stick closer to the explicit words of God, without trying to read between the lines or adding what I think is implied, in order to build a new theory or system of theology. By "new" I mean in the latter 1800s.

In the KVJ the word "dispensation" is used 4 times: 1 Co 9:17; Eph 1:10, 3:2; Col 1:25. Each of these 4 are in Paul's writings, and in 1 Co. 9:17 it clearly states "a dispensation of the gospel" and the following 3 occurrences refer to the same. The Greek οἰκονομία translated "dispensation" in the KVJ is also used 3 other times in Lk. 16:2,3,4 where it is translated "stewardship".

The 1828 Webster's Dictionary gives 4 definitions for "dispensation" and the 4th is the one that fits the NT usage:

"4. That which is dispensed or bestowed; a system of principles and rites enjoined; as the Mosaic dispensation; the gospel dispensation; including, the former the Levitical law and rites; the latter the scheme of redemption by Christ."

The use of "dispensation" in Paul's writings would appear to indicate a previous dispensation and that seems to be the case meaning law and gospel in the following:

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17, KJV)

The more recent English translations, the NEB, REB & NRSV do not use the word "dispensation" at all anywhere in their translations. Strictly speaking, the KJV refers to the gospel as a dispensation, not multiple 3, 4, 7, 9 dispensations, etc.
what about the dispensation of God's grace through the covenant He made with Abraham?
 

Evmur

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These statements prove that you have no idea about Dispensationalism. It does NOT create any new doctrines but clarifies the actual existing Bible doctrines.

So why is there such an irrational bias towards Dispensationalism? Because it undercuts all the false teachings of Covenant Theology, Amillennialism, Preterism, and all the other nonsense floating around.

So the fundamental question which needs to be asked is this: "Has God had different ways for dealing with men at different times, and is the New Covenant quite different from the Old Covenant?"
yes this is the heart of the matter ... amill is the true villain.
 

Evmur

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Were Peter and Paul Jews?
They were church, the promise made to the church is heaven ... the promise made to the Jews is the earth.

If God reneges on His promise to the Jews that they shall possess the ends of the earth [where-so-ever their feet have trod] then might He also renege on the promise He has made to us.

God forbid that He should ever renege.
 

Beckie

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the same folks who are arguing against dispensations themselves teach covenants by which they mean the very same thing.
I do not understand your post . Please try again.
 

Ethan1942

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In Revelations John was carried in the Spirit to the Lord's day ... it wasn't Sunday [how quaint] it is the Day of the Lord ... then the time will be at hand.
No, it does not say "the Day of the Lord", it says "the Lord's Day" and it is the only occurrence in all of Scripture of that phrase. The similar phrase "the Lord's supper" also occurs only once in the entire Bible. It is where the death of Christ is honored. In like manner it makes more sense to see "the Lord's day" to honor His resurrection. It is the first day of the week, which in our calendar happens to be Sunday.
 

Evmur

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No, it does not say "the Day of the Lord", it says "the Lord's Day" and it is the only occurrence in all of Scripture of that phrase. The similar phrase "the Lord's supper" also occurs only once in the entire Bible. It is where the death of Christ is honored. In like manner it makes more sense to see "the Lord's day" to honor His resurrection. It is the first day of the week, which in our calendar happens to be Sunday.
quaint ... I say it's the day of the Lord
 

chess-player

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Rubbish

They are enemies of the gospel for your sake but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the father's sake for the gifts and call of God are irrevocable.

You see that it is the enemies of the gospel who are the beloved.

You are the boys who preach predestination and election, don't you know that Paul gets his doctrine from God's dealing with the Jews?
Jacob was chosen before he did right or wrong, before he accepted or rejected Christ. Election is not based upon righteousness or obedience but upon God's foreknowledge and choice only and cannot be revoked.

Moreover their rejection of Christ was predetermined and YOU could not have been saved with it.

It is prophesied by ALL the prophets that in the latter days Israel will be the greatest nation and Jerusalem the greatest city.
Rubbish

They are enemies of the gospel for your sake but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the father's sake for the gifts and call of God are irrevocable.

You see that it is the enemies of the gospel who are the beloved.

You are the boys who preach predestination and election, don't you know that Paul gets his doctrine from God's dealing with the Jews?
Jacob was chosen before he did right or wrong, before he accepted or rejected Christ. Election is not based upon righteousness or obedience but upon God's foreknowledge and choice only and cannot be revoked.

Moreover their rejection of Christ was predetermined and YOU could not have been saved with it.

It is prophesied by ALL the prophets that in the latter days Israel will be the greatest nation and Jerusalem the greatest city.
Don't talk to me about Israel being prophesied in the OT. The prophecies were about Jesus Christ, not Israel (LK 24:25-27, 44-45, Jn 5:39-40). God fulfilled His promises to them in the OT by giving them the land filled with milk and honey. They tore His promises to pieces, broke His law, and tore His covenant right in the middle of God's grace who gave them His Son for them to be saved first. They rejected the Lord for the most (except the remnant). Don't tell me that God made them do it.

God knows the past, present, and future but that does not mean He forces people to do His will even if it goes against His holy character. People make choices regardless of God's desire for them to be saved (1Pe. 3:8) 's will for their lives. The nation of Israel set themselves against God from the very beginning of their inception to the point that Christ called them out in Mat. 23:34-39 and prophesied their judgment because they refused to believe in Him because they had hardened their hearts against Him. That was their choice.

The rejection of Christ was made from their own black hearts because they hated Him. Don't tell me that God made them hate Him and made them reject Christ. Calvinists think the same way.

Have you read Romans 3:9-20 and 9:6-8? Do you understand that Israel stopped being a nation once the wrath of God fell upon them AS PROPHESIED by Jesus and by Paul? A.D. 70 was the end of the nation because once the temple was destroyed, Israel's umbilical cord that connected them to God was broken through the rejection of His grace in Christ, and through a broken law that they thought was the way of salvation

Once you learn to put Christ first, you will discover that Israel was chosen to be the means whereby the incarnation would take place to reverse Adam's sin and bring salvation to the world.

Christin Zionists put Israel before Christ because they fail to see that once Christ came, the clock began to tick for Israel to be judged for all her sins against God.

Luke 19:40–44 (NASB95)
40 "But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”
41 When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43 “For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,
44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”



1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (NASB95)
14 "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15
who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins.
But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."


Matthew 23:34–38 (NASB95)
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!"


The scriptures are clear. You need to repent from being a Zionist Christian instead of being a disciple of the Lord and a son of God through faith in Christ.
 

Ethan1942

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what about the dispensation of God's grace through the covenant He made with Abraham?
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29, KJV)

Israel lost the promise of land by disobedience.
 

chess-player

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pre tribulation rapture is 200 years old economies and administrations or dispensations were recognised from primitive.

Paul received a dispensation.
Rubbish! Pre-rapture tribulation is also an invention that cannot be proven in the scriptures. Try the tribulation of A.D. 70 that Jesus prophesied against the nation of Israel for rejecting Christ with their eyes wide open.
 

Evmur

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"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29, KJV)

Israel lost the promise of land by disobedience.
oh really? so when they come back into obedience as Paul says .... they will then inherit the land .... right?
 

Evmur

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Rubbish! Pre-rapture tribulation is also an invention that cannot be proven in the scriptures. Try the tribulation of A.D. 70 that Jesus prophesied against the nation of Israel for rejecting Christ with their eyes wide open.
I think you mean pre tribulation rapture ... yeh that's rubbish. But there will be a rapture.

Are you saying that Jesus came back in 70 ad? according to Matt. 24 He comes in the clouds after the tribulation.
 

Ethan1942

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oh really? so when they come back into obedience as Paul says .... they will then inherit the land .... right?
Give us the Scripture where you find such as that. If you are thinking Romans 11, there is no such promise of returning to the land there.
 

Evmur

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Give us the Scripture where you find such as that. If you are thinking Romans 11, there is no such promise of returning to the land there.
No but there is a promise that they who were rejected will be received and those who were cast away will gain full acceptance ... therefore we may assume they will inherit the promise.
 

Ethan1942

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I think you mean pre tribulation rapture ... yeh that's rubbish. But there will be a rapture.

Are you saying that Jesus came back in 70 ad? according to Matt. 24 He comes in the clouds after the tribulation.
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matt 24:34,
KJV)

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Matt 24:34, REB)

"I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place." (Matt 24:34, Weymouth)

"Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died." (Matt 24:34, GNB92)

It is real twisting of Scripture to see the things prior to Matt. 24:34 referring to some tribulation in our future! The grammar is quite clear in the KJV, and other translations saw the need to spell it out! This section is clearly about 70 AD!

Go to the OT symbolism to see what God coming on clouds can mean: Isa. 19:1; Nah 1:3; Psa.104:3
 

Ethan1942

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No but there is a promise that they who were rejected will be received and those who were cast away will gain full acceptance ... therefore we may assume they will inherit the promise.
When it comes to the seriousness of God's word, I do not "assume", or at least I strive not to "assume". I stick to:

"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

The dispensational system is built upon assuming, reading into, and flat out rejection of the plain statements of Holy Scripture!