Distinctives of Dispensationalism

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GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
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Has this happened yet : Rev.9:13-6th Trumpet: demons released and 200 million army kills 1/3 of the world's population.\\
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
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Same here,read all the stuff by Lindsey,early Lahay got through most of the Left Behind series. Lived in a whole lot of fear. Didn't get out of it till early to mid year last year. :eek:


Watch out for Tim Lahaye's left behind series. Now while Tim Lahaye does have the timing of the Rapture right (pre-trib. Rapture),


Tim Lahaye teaches in two of his books in his Left Behind Series that a man can still go to Heaven even though that same man has already taken the mark.


And that is dangerous heresy. No one in the time of Jacob's trouble that takes the mark of the beast is going to Heaven. If a man or woman takes the mark of the beast, they are damned eternally and there is no hope of them ever getting saved.


Furthermore, in the Left Behind Series, Tim Lahaye also teaches that people will be forced to take the mark of the beast. Tim Lahaye does this by depicting and portraying Chang (a main character in the film) being held down by men while his father implants the mark of the beast (antichrist) into him.



Scripture does not teach that anyone will be forced to take the mark of the beast.


The Scripture teaches that the False Prophet will cause everyone on the earth to take the mark of the beast in the time of Jacob's trouble.


There is a huge difference between cause and force.


So again, while Tim Lahaye definitely got the TIMING of the Rapture Right (which is Pre-trib.),


Tim Lahaye wrongly teaches that a man can take the mark of the beast and still be saved.


And again, the Scripture clearly teaches that if any man takes the mark, then that same man goes to the lake of Fire. (See Rev. 14).


Therefore Sarah, Just stick with what the Bible teaches. The King James Bible teaches a Pre-Trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ. And it teaches that during the time of Jacob's trouble, that the False Prophet will cause everyone on Earth to receive the mark of the beast (Rev. 13:16).


 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Oooh!!!! Touched a nerve have we!!! Me thinks ya protest too much. That imaginary replacement theology you constructed is crumbling.
LOL...i don't think so deary.

i didn't construct replacement theology - you did.

you replaced the christian church with hostile unbelievers.
replaced Jesus with Satan.
the church with the Synagogue of Satan.

sold your inheritance...if ya had one.

can't help ya.
brainwashed.
doubt you've ever even read the bible.

Now your relying on the 1st time of regathering after Egypt!? Ya mean BEFORE the KINGDOM of Israel even existed? TWIST, TWIST, TWIST Scripture. Heck, with that thinking wouldn't the 1st time be when Abraham 1st entered the land?
Further, enlighten me as to what "Islands of the sea" the Jews came back from after the Babylonian captivity, which you believe is the SECOND regathering?
START AT THE BEGINNING.

Jeremiah 31:32
It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

oh look....a new covenant promised. not like the one when they came out of egypt.

any clue when that New Covenant was inagurated:confused:

1) 1948
2) sometime after a bad mean awful person breaks a peace treaty with the state of israel in our future
3) when Jesus Christ suffered and died on the Cross....2000 years ago.

hint: they were gathered a 2nd time - from Babylonian captivity - back to the Land.

a baby was born.
His name was Jesus.


bye now.

seek God while He may be found.
repent of your idolatry.
 
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GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
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I'm not worrying about the mark of the beast cuz I t'aint gonna be here, ChosenHis :)
 

GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
9,171
58
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Has this happened yet : Rev.9:13-6th Trumpet: demons released and 200 million army kills 1/3 of the world's population.\\
What do you think, ohzone?

Has a 2oo million army killed 1/3 of the world's population , in the blink of an eye ?

His this yet happened :confused:

Or, what about all these things. Explain away, preterist :D


The Tribulation according to the Book of Revelation
The Book of Revelation writes of… 7 seal judgments; 7 trumpet judgments; 7 bowl judgments.
All of the judgments God waited for in history are now poured out in the Tribulation period which according to Jesus and Daniel lasts 7 years. These judgments devastate the earth, not just the Roman province. In the Tribulation the oceans become blood, most of the sea life dies, plagues, hailstones are released, and a supernatural darkness covers the earth, as God pours out His wrath on a world that has rejected Christ for the worship of false gods and the man who claims to be God. Just as the judgments were literal/ physical to Egypt they will be to the world. Israel was present in Egypt during the plagues and she will be present during the Great tribulation.
SEALS
Rev. 6:2 1st seal conquers with a peace plan.
Rev.6:3-2nd Seal: Wars on earth
Rev.6:5-3rd Seal: Worldwide economic trouble
Rev.6:7-4th Seal: Death released. 1/4 of the worlds population to die by plagues, disease, and beasts of the earth
Rev.6:9-5th Seal: Persecution and mass killing of God's people worldwide
Rev.6:12-6th Seal: Massive earthquake wrath of God.
Rev.7:2-7th Seal: 144,000 Jewish males are anointed to evangelize the earth
[SUP]TRUMPETS[/SUP]
Rev.8:7-1st Trumpet: Hail, fire, and blood. 1/3 all grass and trees burned up
Rev.8:8 -2nd Trumpet: Great mountain hits sea. 1/3 all ocean becomes blood. 1/3 all sea life dies and 1/3 all ships destroyed.
Rev.8:10-3rd Trumpet: Wormwood star hits earth. 1/3 all freshwater poisoned.
Rev.8:12-4th Trumpet: 1/3 of sun and moon darkened.
Rev.9:1-5th Trumpet: locust beasts that sting and torment men are loosed from the pit.
Rev.9:13-6th Trumpet: demons released and 200 million army kills 1/3 of the world's population.
BOWLS
Rev.16:2-1st Bowl: Terrible and painful sores break out on all who worship beast.
Rev.16:3-2nd Bowl: Entire oceans becomes blood, the sea life dies.
Rev.16:4-3rd Bowl: Fresh water becomes blood, no more fresh drinking water.
Rev.16:8-4th Bowl: Sun increased in heat and scorches and burns people. Far beyond global warming.
Rev.16:10-5th Bowl: a Supernatural darkness covers the earth
Rev.16:12-6th Bowl: Armies head toward in the Middle East for the final battle –Armageddon.
Rev.16:17-7th Bowl: Babylon destroyed, massive earthquakes, hundred pound hailstones devastate earth.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
156
63
What do you think, ohzone?

Has a 2oo million army killed 1/3 of the world's population , in the blink of an eye ?

His this yet happened :confused:
sorry green.
we`ll have to start back in Daniel before i go into revelation with you.
but youll have to study actual history while doing so.

i dont think youre willing.
 

GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
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sorry green.
we`ll have to start back in Daniel before i go into revelation with you.
but youll have to study actual history while doing so.

i dont think youre willing.
Your believing sarasara, and, scholars, and that, along with studying actual history, and, not The Truth, as your source of info for The Rapture, is a much bigger problem, ohzone :(
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,080
38
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I'm not worrying about the mark of the beast cuz I t'aint gonna be here, ChosenHis :)

Amen!!! That's right GreenNnice. No true born again Christian will be on this earth for the time of Jacob's trouble.


But people still need to be warned about Tim Lahaye's heretical teaching that a person can still somehow be saved after taking the mark.


Because once we (the body of Christ) is gone. Those who are left behind are going to be searching for answers. And if you have loved ones who are left behind, YOU DO NOT want them to pick up Tim Lahaye's Left Behind Series, because if they read it, they will think that they can take the mark of the beast and still be saved, which is false.

So warn them now to stay clear of Tim Lahaye's Left Behind series, and just tell them to stick with the Bible.



 
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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,475
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LOL...i don't think so deary.

i didn't construct replacement theology - you did.

you replaced the christian church with hostile unbelievers.
replaced Jesus with Satan.
the church with the Synagogue of Satan.

sold your inheritance...if ya had one.

can't help ya.
brainwashed.
doubt you've ever even read the bible.



START AT THE BEGINNING.

Jeremiah 31:32
It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

oh look....a new covenant promised. not like the one when they came out of egypt.

any clue when that New Covenant was inagurated:confused:

1) 1948
2) sometime after a bad mean awful person breaks a peace treaty with the state of israel in our future
3) when Jesus Christ suffered and died on the Cross....2000 years ago.

hint: they were gathered a 2nd time - from Babylonian captivity - back to the Land.

a baby was born.
His name was Jesus.


bye now.

seek God while He may be found.
repent of your idolatry.

No, I can tell I'm hitting pretty close to the mark with you. Your nastiness increases as your ability to rebut diminishes.

How bout them "Islands in the Sea". I guess the Jews didn't come back from Babylon. They swam from the Islands.

Without you copy and pasting, tell me in YOUR own words why there is a country on Earth called Israel THIS day, in the same location that God gave them. How do you explain that?
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Your believing sarasara, and, scholars, and that, along with studying actual history, and, not The Truth, as your source of info for The Rapture, is a much bigger problem, ohzone :(
Sorry Green,but if history shows that certain things took place,then it's important.
 

GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
9,171
58
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sarasara, if ohzone says what you say and what actual history say are what I need to delve into for the truth....

no, that's not, actually, correct, what needs delved into is The Word, The Truth, and, it explains quite readily that the events still to come will be many per Revelation lore that is Truth and so, either believe in the sequential events to happen in the future as John wrote down in His vision from Christ, or, not.

Eusebius, Iraeneus, etc. are all just analyzational nothingness that people USE to prove their point IF the actual history bodes well of their doctrine. Yeah, true, actually :) But, sad, indeed, to construct one's doctrine around what's hand-picked according to what you want to believe as Truth instead of looking to the Truth for truth. Makes sense to me, anyway.

The Lord leads. :)

Sorry, too, if I sound a bit snippy, I always start to go off a bit when someone accuses me of 'blasphemy,' NEVER a wise thing for one Christian to accuse of another, I don't care WHAT the scenario or contextual obligation is for the other party.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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sarasara, if ohzone says what you say and what actual history say are what I need to delve into for the truth....

no, that's not, actually, correct, what needs delved into is The Word, The Truth, and, it explains quite readily that the events still to come will be many per Revelation lore that is Truth and so, either believe in the sequential events to happen in the future as John wrote down in His vision from Christ, or, not.

Eusebius, Iraeneus, etc. are all just analyzational nothingness that people USE to prove their point IF the actual history bodes well of their doctrine. Yeah, true, actually :) But, sad, indeed, to construct one's doctrine around what's hand-picked according to what you want to believe as Truth instead of looking to the Truth for truth. Makes sense to me, anyway.

The Lord leads. :)

Sorry, too, if I sound a bit snippy, I always start to go off a bit when someone accuses me of 'blasphemy,' NEVER a wise thing for one Christian to accuse of another, I don't care WHAT the scenario or contextual obligation is for the other party.
Sorry Green,the Bible itself tells us that a certain man actually went and checked out that what the disciples were actually preaching was the truth. If he hadn't done it we would lose two books of the Bible. He tells us himself he went and checked the stories to be sure they were true so that his friend would not be led into fables. I believe when he started out he was not a believer himself.

Luke 1

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

If History shows that a major portion of Revelation has already BEEN FULFILLED then what some are teaching is in error. It either happened or it did not.

Again how do you reconcile what Peter said here with what is being taught

2 Peter 3

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

How does that fit in with modern thinking? Peter plainly says people will be scoffing about His coming.

How does what Jesus says here fits in?

Matthew 24

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

How is it possible with all the things that people are saying is going to happen during this tribulation period,that they DO NOT KNOW something is happening or that Jesus would be coming back at the end of all of this when there have been so many books,movies and videos that have gone over this over and over and over again? Please explain how these verses fit in also as they do NOT SEEM to make sense in what some people are saying will happen.
 

GreenNnice

Senior Member
Jan 21, 2011
9,171
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History shows that a 'major portion of Revelation has been fulfilled,' as you put it sarasara?

What about all these things? Have they already been fulfilled?

Also can't you use another color other than red? Red is hard on the eyes and al ot of what I read from you gives me a full-blown headache quite independently of needing any added color :D I say this in Love, milady :)

It's OK to be on differing sides of the fence on doctrine issues as long as we are both inside the 'fence' of His pasture :)

But, yeah, these prophecies John received from Christ in a vision in REvelation have yet to be fulfilled, the WHOLE PORTION of them :

The Tribulation according to the Book of Revelation
The Book of Revelation writes of… 7 seal judgments; 7 trumpet judgments; 7 bowl judgments.
All of the judgments God waited for in history are now poured out in the Tribulation period which according to Jesus and Daniel lasts 7 years. These judgments devastate the earth, not just the Roman province. In the Tribulation the oceans become blood, most of the sea life dies, plagues, hailstones are released, and a supernatural darkness covers the earth, as God pours out His wrath on a world that has rejected Christ for the worship of false gods and the man who claims to be God. Just as the judgments were literal/ physical to Egypt they will be to the world. Israel was present in Egypt during the plagues and she will be present during the Great tribulation.
SEALS
Rev. 6:2 1st seal conquers with a peace plan.
Rev.6:3-2nd Seal: Wars on earth
Rev.6:5-3rd Seal: Worldwide economic trouble
Rev.6:7-4th Seal: Death released. 1/4 of the worlds population to die by plagues, disease, and beasts of the earth
Rev.6:9-5th Seal: Persecution and mass killing of God's people worldwide
Rev.6:12-6th Seal: Massive earthquake wrath of God.
Rev.7:2-7th Seal: 144,000 Jewish males are anointed to evangelize the earth
[SUP]TRUMPETS[/SUP]
Rev.8:7-1st Trumpet: Hail, fire, and blood. 1/3 all grass and trees burned up
Rev.8:8 -2nd Trumpet: Great mountain hits sea. 1/3 all ocean becomes blood. 1/3 all sea life dies and 1/3 all ships destroyed.
Rev.8:10-3rd Trumpet: Wormwood star hits earth. 1/3 all freshwater poisoned.
Rev.8:12-4th Trumpet: 1/3 of sun and moon darkened.
Rev.9:1-5th Trumpet: locust beasts that sting and torment men are loosed from the pit.
Rev.9:13-6th Trumpet: demons released and 200 million army kills 1/3 of the world's population.
BOWLS
Rev.16:2-1st Bowl: Terrible and painful sores break out on all who worship beast.
Rev.16:3-2nd Bowl: Entire oceans becomes blood, the sea life dies.
Rev.16:4-3rd Bowl: Fresh water becomes blood, no more fresh drinking water.
Rev.16:8-4th Bowl: Sun increased in heat and scorches and burns people. Far beyond global warming.
Rev.16:10-5th Bowl: a Supernatural darkness covers the earth
Rev.16:12-6th Bowl: Armies head toward in the Middle East for the final battle –Armageddon.
Rev.16:17-7th Bowl: Babylon destroyed, massive earthquakes, hundred pound hailstones devastate earth.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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History shows that a 'major portion of Revelation has been fulfilled,' as you put it sarasara?

What about all these things? Have they already been fulfilled?

Also can't you use another color other than red? Red is hard on the eyes and al ot of what I read from you gives me a full-blown headache quite independently of needing any added color :D I say this in Love, milady :)

It's OK to be on differing sides of the fence on doctrine issues as long as we are both inside the 'fence' of His pasture :)

But, yeah, these prophecies John received from Christ in a vision in REvelation have yet to be fulfilled, the WHOLE PORTION of them :

The Tribulation according to the Book of Revelation
The Book of Revelation writes of… 7 seal judgments; 7 trumpet judgments; 7 bowl judgments.
All of the judgments God waited for in history are now poured out in the Tribulation period which according to Jesus and Daniel lasts 7 years. These judgments devastate the earth, not just the Roman province. In the Tribulation the oceans become blood, most of the sea life dies, plagues, hailstones are released, and a supernatural darkness covers the earth, as God pours out His wrath on a world that has rejected Christ for the worship of false gods and the man who claims to be God. Just as the judgments were literal/ physical to Egypt they will be to the world. Israel was present in Egypt during the plagues and she will be present during the Great tribulation.
SEALS
Rev. 6:2 1st seal conquers with a peace plan.
Rev.6:3-2nd Seal: Wars on earth
Rev.6:5-3rd Seal: Worldwide economic trouble
Rev.6:7-4th Seal: Death released. 1/4 of the worlds population to die by plagues, disease, and beasts of the earth
Rev.6:9-5th Seal: Persecution and mass killing of God's people worldwide
Rev.6:12-6th Seal: Massive earthquake wrath of God.
Rev.7:2-7th Seal: 144,000 Jewish males are anointed to evangelize the earth
[SUP]TRUMPETS[/SUP]
Rev.8:7-1st Trumpet: Hail, fire, and blood. 1/3 all grass and trees burned up
Rev.8:8 -2nd Trumpet: Great mountain hits sea. 1/3 all ocean becomes blood. 1/3 all sea life dies and 1/3 all ships destroyed.
Rev.8:10-3rd Trumpet: Wormwood star hits earth. 1/3 all freshwater poisoned.
Rev.8:12-4th Trumpet: 1/3 of sun and moon darkened.
Rev.9:1-5th Trumpet: locust beasts that sting and torment men are loosed from the pit.
Rev.9:13-6th Trumpet: demons released and 200 million army kills 1/3 of the world's population.
BOWLS
Rev.16:2-1st Bowl: Terrible and painful sores break out on all who worship beast.
Rev.16:3-2nd Bowl: Entire oceans becomes blood, the sea life dies.
Rev.16:4-3rd Bowl: Fresh water becomes blood, no more fresh drinking water.
Rev.16:8-4th Bowl: Sun increased in heat and scorches and burns people. Far beyond global warming.
Rev.16:10-5th Bowl: a Supernatural darkness covers the earth
Rev.16:12-6th Bowl: Armies head toward in the Middle East for the final battle –Armageddon.
Rev.16:17-7th Bowl: Babylon destroyed, massive earthquakes, hundred pound hailstones devastate earth.


Well Green some of what I say may give you a headache because it is forcing you to have to think. And can you be so sure that these didn't happen already as a lot of Revelation is symbolic just as much of OT prophecy is written in symbolic language.


[h=2]REVELATION 6 (Part 1)
[/h]
Adam Maarschalk: September 3, 2009Scripture text for this study: Revelation 6:1-17 (Part 1 covers verses 1-8)
Brief review of chapter 5: We read of a worship scene around the throne of God in heaven, in which the Lamb who had been slain was found worthy to open a scroll and break its seals. This Lamb, Jesus, has “ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and nation,” and “made them a kingdom and priests” to God. We will now learn what took place when the first six seals were opened.From a Futurist standpoint, these seal judgments are yet to take place in history. From a Preterist (past fulfillment) viewpoint, they took place during the years leading up to Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 AD. In some of the upcoming posts, mainly for the sake of comparison, we will be considering statements from both viewpoints, as well as from the Historicist/Idealist viewpoint. For a primer on what these viewpoints entail, please see here. My own commentary will be from the Preterist viewpoint.

A. First Seal: The Conqueror (6:1-2)
One of the four living creatures we saw in the last chapter says, “Come!” John said his voice sounded like thunder.Q: Who was the first living creature talking to, John or someone else?
A: He was speaking to the rider on the white horse, who was wearing a crown, carrying a bow, and going out to conquer.
The command “Come!” appears three more times, at the end of verses 3, 5, and 7. This command was not given to John four times, but to each of the characters mentioned in verses 2, 4, 5, and 8. We will notice, as each of the first four seals are opened, that Jesus is the One who opens them, but each of the four living creatures in turn calls forth some individual to execute judgment.In the general Preterist viewpoint, this first seal judgment was fulfilled in early February 67 AD when Rome officially declared war on Israel, and Nero formally commissioned Vespasian as his general to lead the war to crush the Jewish rebellion. This took place 3.5 years before Jerusalem’s downfall in August 70 AD.[1] We will see the significance of this 3.5 year period later in our study of Revelation.

B. Second Seal: Conflict on Earth (6:3-4)
Q: Does the same type of warfare take place when the second seal is opened, or is there a difference?
A: This time the people are not attacked by an outside force, but they slay one another instead.
Mark A. Copeland, a Preterist, says of this passage that it “[r]epresents civil war, in which people would kill one another, such as God used in His judgment against Egypt (Isa 19:1-4).” This certainly fits the language used here. As a historical fact, in the fall/winter of 67 AD a brutal civil war broke out in Jerusalem and Judea between the revolutionaries and those who wanted to maintain peace with Rome. Jerusalem was eventually divided into three factions led by [1] Eleazar, who was over the Zealots [2] John of Gischala, who was over the Galileans, and [3] Simon, who was over the Idumeans. It remained this way until the city was destroyed. The conditions were awful. In one night 8500 people were killed, and their bodies were cast outside of Jerusalem without being buried. The outer temple was “overflowing with blood” and the inner court even had pools of blood in it. Homes and gravesites were looted (For more information, see Footnote #1).Steve Gregg, in his book “Revelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary),” quotes from J. Stuart Russell, who says (p. 106),
The Jewish war, under Vespasian, commenced at the furthest distance from Jerusalem in Galilee, and gradually drew nearer and nearer to the doomed city. The Romans were not the only agents in the work of slaughter that depopulated the land; hostile factions among the Jews themselves turned their arms against one another, so that it might be said that “every man’s hand was against his brother.”
Gregg also quotes Josephus (from Wars, 2:18:2): “Every city was divided into two armies encamped one against another…so the daytime was spent in shedding of blood, and the night in fear.” Gregg himself adds (p. 108) that these verses in Revelation 6:3-4 substantiate the words of Jesus when He wept over Jerusalem:
The Jews had rejected the Prince of Peace, who had said, while weeping over Jerusalem, “If you had known…the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes” (Luke 19:42). The next words Jesus spoke predicted the Roman armies invading the land and leveling the city of Jerusalem (Luke 19:43-44). What could speak more directly to the fulfillment of this threat than for Revelation to speak, as here, of one sent to take peace (v. 4) from the land? Zechariah also had predicted this as a consequence of the Jews’ rejection of Christ (Zech. 11:10-14).
At this point, it would be valuable to note that the Preterist viewpoint (which sees this as fulfilled in the land of Israel in the first-century) would be less plausible if the phrase “the earth” here refers to the entire globe. In chapter one,[2] we already got the sense that the predicted events in this book were to be localized, and that they had to do primarily with the land of Israel/Palestine as it existed in John’s day. You may recall that we compared the language of Revelation 1:7 with Matthew 24:30 and Zechariah 12:10-14, and saw (for example) that the term “tribes of the earth” clearly had to do with the tribes of the land of Israel. Kenneth Gentry is especially helpful in his book, “Before Jerusalem Fell” (1998, pp. 128-131), in explaining that “land” and “earth” are often used interchangeably in Scripture, with a meaning that is localized rather than global.A quick glance at a couple of New Testament Scriptures begins to demonstrate this. For example, relating the circumstances surrounding Christ’s death on the cross, Matthew 27:45 in the ESV states, “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all theland until the ninth hour.” A footnote says that “earth” could have been used instead of land in this text, but most readers will conclude that this darkness was localized that day and not global. Looking also at Luke 21:20-24, the context likewise shows that these events belong to Judea and Jerusalem, and even Futurists generally agree that this passage speaks of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem from 67-70 AD. Yet verse 23 says, “…For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.” The phrase “this people” here no doubt refers to the unrepentant Jews, and “the earth” here is the land of Judea. The same is true in Revelation 6.[In our study of Revelation, we will suggest that many of the references to “the earth” in the book of Revelation are not meant to be taken as worldwide in scope, but as dealing instead with the land of Israel/Palestine. In a 3-part study on this subjectbeginning with this post, I have outlined nearly 20 instances where this appears to be the case.]

Pursuing Truth

Revelation Chapter 6 (Part 1) | Pursuing Truth

cont
 
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C. Third Seal: Scarcity on Earth (6:5-6)
Q: Who made the remark about “a quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius”?
A: We are only told that there “seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures.”
The following is a short excerpt regarding this famine from a term paper I wrote in 2009:
…[T]he great famine predicted by Agabus in Acts 11:27-30 began in the fourth year of the reign of Claudius (i.e. 45 AD) and “was of long continuance. It extended through Greece, and even into Italy, but was felt most severely in Judea and especially at Jerusalem, where many perished for want of bread” [quote from George Peter Holford in 1805]. This famine was recorded by Eusebius [early church father], Orosius [3[SUP]rd[/SUP] century Christian historian], and Josephus, who related that “an assaron [about 3.5 pints] of corn was sold for five drachmae” (in the heyday of ancient Greece in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] century BC one drachmae was the daily wage for a skilled worker). This brings to mind Revelation 6:6, where under the third seal judgment it is said that a denarius (or a typical daily wage) would only purchase a quart of wheat. This situation was said by Josephus to have climaxed during the five-month siege on Jerusalem in 70 AD.[3]
In December 69 AD John of Gischala foolishly set fire to the supply warehouses in Jerusalem, and nearly all the grain supplies were burned, which would have lasted the city for years. This set the stage for a massive famine which would prove to be Jerusalem’s undoing. The famine became so severe during the final five months in which Jerusalem was under siege by the Romans that there are records of parents roasting and eating their own children. Others ate their belts, sandals, dried grass, and even oxen dung. There were violent home invasions where anyone who was suspected of hoarding food was tormented until they revealed where it was. Some escaped from Jerusalem to the Romans because they couldn’t bear the conditions in the city any longer. Josephus records that some then failed to restrain their appetites, but quickly ate so much that they literally caused their bodies to burst open.[4]No wonder Jesus had said, “Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!” (Luke 21:23; cf. Luke 23:28-29). Noting that Revelation 6:6 makes specific reference to wheat and barley, it’s interesting what Josephus said of the conditions in Jerusalem during the Roman siege in 70 AD (Steve Gregg, Revelation, p. 112): “Many there were indeed who sold what they had for one quart; it was of wheat, if they were of the richer sort, but of barley, if they were poorer (Wars, 5:10:2).” Steve Gregg also adds,
The statement, do not harm the oil and the wine (v. 6) could allude to the fact that some sacrilegious Jews pillaged the oil and wine from the temple. Josephus writes that John Gischala, the leader of one of the factions, confiscated the sacred vessels of the temple: “Accordingly, drawing the sacred wine and oil, which the priests kept for pouring on the burnt offerings, and which was deposited in the inner temple, [John] distributed them among his adherents, who consumed without horror more than a hin in anointing themselves and drinking (Wars, 5:13:6).
D. Fourth Seal: Widespread Death on Earth (6:7-8)
A quarter of the population was to be wiped out [1] with sword [2] with famine [3] with pestilence [4] by wild beasts of the earth. We’ve already seen how the period of time leading up to Jerusalem’s downfall was characterized by war and famine. Regarding pestilences, George Peter Holford (1805) added these details:
History…particularly distinguishes two instances of this calamity, which occurred before the commencement of the Jewish war. The first took place at Babylon about A. D. 40, and raged so alarmingly, that great multitudes of Jews fled from that city to Seleucia forsafety, as hath been hinted already. The other happened at Rome A.D. 65, and carried off prodigiousmultitudes. Both Tacitus and Suetonius also record, that similar calamities prevailed, during this period, in various parts of the Roman empire. After Jerusalem was surrounded by the army of Titus, pestilential diseases soon made their appearance there to aggravate the miseries, and deepen the horrors of the siege. They were partly occasioned by the immense multitudes which were crowded together in the city, partly by the putrid effluvia which arose from the unburied dead, and partly from spread of famine.​
Steve Gregg (pp. 114, 116) sheds more light on the significance of John’s description of the fourth seal judgment:The reference to the means of death, sword, hunger, death [i.e. pestilence], and beasts of the earth [v. 8] are a deliberate echo of Ezekiel 14:21, where “sword and famine and wild beasts and pestilence” are called God’s “four severe judgments on Jerusalem.” In Ezekiel, God used these means to inflict judgment at the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586 B.C., which was a precursor of this event, similar in detail and in significance, in A.D. 70.Josephus describes the carnage and death in Jerusalem during the siege in the following terms: “So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city. Then did the famine widen its progress, and devoured the people by whole houses and families; the upper rooms were full of women and children that were dying by famine; and the lanes of the city were full of the dead bodies of the aged. The seditious…as not enduring the stench of the dead bodies…had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. However, when Titus, in going his rounds along those valleys, saw them full of dead bodies, and the thick putrefaction running about them, he gave a groan…and such was the sad case of the city itself (Wars, 5:12:3-4).”
[h=3]INTERPRETATIONS OF THESE SEAL JUDGMENTS
[/h]We’ll examine the fifth and sixth seal judgments in the next post (covering Rev. 6:9-17). First let’s pause briefly and consider how these seals have been interpreted by various schools of thought:
FUTURIST VIEW (#1): “The first seal is a rider on a white horse who is given a crown and sets out to conquer. The second seal is the red horse of war. The remaining seals are famine, death, martyrs, and great earthquakes and astronomical events. In the Olivet discourse, Jesus describes the events leading up to the “great tribulation” as things which are merely birth pangs. These birth pangs, however, include false Messiahs (Matthew 24:5), war (24:6-7a), famines and earthquakes (24:7b). The comparison between this description of events and the first six seals is unmistakable. This suggests that the first six seal judgments take place in the first half of Daniel’s 70th week, and that the remainder of the judgments take place in the last half.” (Grace Institute for Biblical Leadership, “REVELATION – Survey of the New Testament: The General Epistles and Revelation,” Winter 2007, p. 14. Athttp://www.gcfweb.org/institute/general/revelation.pdf.)​
FUTURIST VIEW (#2): “Some interpreters view the seals as describing conditions preparatory to the Tribulation. Other scholars believe that they picture events that are part of the [future Great] Tribulation. I favor the second view.” (Dr. Thomas Constable, Notes on Revelation: 2008 Edition, pp. 66-67. Athttp://www.soniclight.com/constable/notes/pdf/revelation.pdf)​
HISTORICIST/IDEALIST VIEW: “The terrifying events of the first four Seals, which those who have to live through them might imagine to be signs of Christ’s return and of the close of the age . . ., are in fact the commonplaces of history. The four horsemen have been riding out over the earth from that day to this, and will continue to do so…” [Sam Storms (quoting Wilcock), “The Seven Seals – Part 1,” 7 November 2006. At http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/the-seven-seals-part-i/][5]
PRETERIST VIEW: “I view the first four seals as revealing forces God would use to bring judgment upon the oppressors of His people (1-8)” [Mark A. Copeland. “Revelation: Chapter 6,” http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/rev/rev_06.htm. “His people,” of course, refers to the body of Christ, not ethnic Jews, who themselves were the oppressors in partnership with Rome

Revelation Chapter 6 (Part 1) | Pursuing Truth

to be cont later.
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
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Assumption One
Dispensationalism assumes God deals differently with people in different time periods called dispensations [hence the name].
It's clear that Adam and Eve were to not eat of the tree, that Cain and Abel were to follow their conscience, that Abraham was to believe the promise that God would make him a great nation, that the Israelites were to follow the Mosaic covenant. These are different patterns in different time periods.

Assumption Two
Dispensationalism assumes there is more than one way to God.
This is a misunderstanding of dispensationalism. The basis of salvation is Christ, the object of faith is Christ, the content of faith has changed. The way to God has always been through His Son.

There is only one way to God: Jesus Christ. The Old Testament saints looked forward in faith to what Christ would do on the Cross and we, in the New Testament era, look back in faith to what He did do.
There is no doubt that Jesus is the way to God. But to say that the OT saints understood that what they were doing was having faith in a future Christ is a huge assumption. I'm not saying there weren't signs or pointers to christ. But the Israelites were showing their faith in what God had revealed to them, the blessings and cursings of the Mosaic law. These didn't save them, their faith in God saved them.

Assumption Three
Dispensationalism assumes that God has not yet fulfilled His promise of Land to Abraham.
God promised Abraham that he would possess the land of Canaan forever Gen. 17:8. Disp. takes God at His word, Josh 21 says God fulfilled the promise and gave them the land, but they didn't possess it forever. Amos 9:14-15 says they will never be uprooted from the land, is this a real promise by God, or one that only has spiritual fulfillment?

Assumption Four
Dispensationalism assumes there is a gap in the image in Dan. 2.
There are many gaps in prophecy throughout Scripture, the idea that there's a gap in Dan. 2 is not mind-boggling. The fact that in Christ's 1st coming He didn't crush all the previous kingdoms and set up a real physical kingdom in the way that the entire vision shows real physical kingdoms (Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, Rome) is evidence that this hasn't been fulfilled. That the Stone that crushes the statue is Christ and this stone immediately becomes a mountain, a huge kingdom, doesn't fit the amillenial picture that the Church came into existence gradually. It started small and grew, yet the picture in Dan. 2 is an immediate large mountain of a kingdom.

Assumption Five
Dispensationalism assumes there is a gap in the Seventy Weeks.
The prophecy says after the 69 weeks the Messiah is cut off. And yet before the start of the 70th week Jerusalem is destroyed, which didn't happen until AD 70, so there's an explicit gap in this prophecy.

Both sides make assumptions. Amillenialists assume that 1000 years doesn't mean 1000 years. They also assume that because God didn't fulfill the Abrahamic covenant physically, that He must fulfill it spiritually. Covenant theologians tend to assume continuity, Dispensationalists tend to assume discontinuity.

We can learn from the tension of seeing similarity or difference, let's try that.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Sorry Green,the Bible itself tells us that a certain man actually went and checked out that what the disciples were actually preaching was the truth. If he hadn't done it we would lose two books of the Bible. He tells us himself he went and checked the stories to be sure they were true so that his friend would not be led into fables. I believe when he started out he was not a believer himself.

Luke 1

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us,2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

If History shows that a major portion of Revelation has already BEEN FULFILLED then what some are teaching is in error. It either happened or it did not.

Again how do you reconcile what Peter said here with what is being taught

2 Peter 3

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

How does that fit in with modern thinking? Peter plainly says people will be scoffing about His coming.

How does what Jesus says here fits in?

Matthew 24

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

How is it possible with all the things that people are saying is going to happen during this tribulation period,that they DO NOT KNOW something is happening or that Jesus would be coming back at the end of all of this when there have been so many books,movies and videos that have gone over this over and over and over again? Please explain how these verses fit in also as they do NOT SEEM to make sense in what some people are saying will happen.
Thats the problem.

History does not show most of revelation (or many other prophesies) has happened. If it did, we would not be having this argument.


1. No one has ruled every nation tribe and language
2. Not until recently, has the ability for "all life" on earth been in danger of extinction by mans own evilm causing the need for Christ to return.
3. Not until recently has the ability to control the finances of everyone on earth been possible
4. At no time in history have the catastrophes and wars of the earth been so severe that the "kings of the nations hide under rocks and said, it is the day of Gods wrath, who can withstand it)

I can go on and on. The fact is. People want to take history and make it fit there interpretation. and not interpret the word and make their belief fit the word.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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No, I can tell I'm hitting pretty close to the mark with you. Your nastiness increases as your ability to rebut diminishes.
i know this is hard for you:

Jeremiah 31:32
It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

How bout them "Islands in the Sea". I guess the Jews didn't come back from Babylon. They swam from the Islands.
what islands in the sea?
that would be UK and the Americas?
LOL.
do your own work.

Without you copy and pasting, tell me in YOUR own words why there is a country on Earth called Israel THIS day
because someone chose the name.
for a reason.

in the same location that God gave them. How do you explain that?
God gave who?

i won't be "explaining" anything to you.
do your own work.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Well Green some of what I say may give you a headache because it is forcing you to have to think. And can you be so sure that these didn't happen already as a lot of Revelation is symbolic just as much of OT prophecy is written in symbolic language.


REVELATION 6 (Part 1)


Adam Maarschalk: September 3, 2009Scripture text for this study: Revelation 6:1-17 (Part 1 covers verses 1-8)
Brief review of chapter 5: We read of a worship scene around the throne of God in heaven, in which the Lamb who had been slain was found worthy to open a scroll and break its seals. This Lamb, Jesus, has “ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and nation,” and “made them a kingdom and priests” to God. We will now learn what took place when the first six seals were opened.From a Futurist standpoint, these seal judgments are yet to take place in history. From a Preterist (past fulfillment) viewpoint, they took place during the years leading up to Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 AD. In some of the upcoming posts, mainly for the sake of comparison, we will be considering statements from both viewpoints, as well as from the Historicist/Idealist viewpoint. For a primer on what these viewpoints entail, please see here. My own commentary will be from the Preterist viewpoint.

A. First Seal: The Conqueror (6:1-2)
One of the four living creatures we saw in the last chapter says, “Come!” John said his voice sounded like thunder.Q: Who was the first living creature talking to, John or someone else?
A: He was speaking to the rider on the white horse, who was wearing a crown, carrying a bow, and going out to conquer.
The command “Come!” appears three more times, at the end of verses 3, 5, and 7. This command was not given to John four times, but to each of the characters mentioned in verses 2, 4, 5, and 8. We will notice, as each of the first four seals are opened, that Jesus is the One who opens them, but each of the four living creatures in turn calls forth some individual to execute judgment.In the general Preterist viewpoint, this first seal judgment was fulfilled in early February 67 AD when Rome officially declared war on Israel, and Nero formally commissioned Vespasian as his general to lead the war to crush the Jewish rebellion. This took place 3.5 years before Jerusalem’s downfall in August 70 AD.[1] We will see the significance of this 3.5 year period later in our study of Revelation.

B. Second Seal: Conflict on Earth (6:3-4)
Q: Does the same type of warfare take place when the second seal is opened, or is there a difference?
A: This time the people are not attacked by an outside force, but they slay one another instead.
Mark A. Copeland, a Preterist, says of this passage that it “[r]epresents civil war, in which people would kill one another, such as God used in His judgment against Egypt (Isa 19:1-4).” This certainly fits the language used here. As a historical fact, in the fall/winter of 67 AD a brutal civil war broke out in Jerusalem and Judea between the revolutionaries and those who wanted to maintain peace with Rome. Jerusalem was eventually divided into three factions led by [1] Eleazar, who was over the Zealots [2] John of Gischala, who was over the Galileans, and [3] Simon, who was over the Idumeans. It remained this way until the city was destroyed. The conditions were awful. In one night 8500 people were killed, and their bodies were cast outside of Jerusalem without being buried. The outer temple was “overflowing with blood” and the inner court even had pools of blood in it. Homes and gravesites were looted (For more information, see Footnote #1).Steve Gregg, in his book “Revelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary),” quotes from J. Stuart Russell, who says (p. 106),
The Jewish war, under Vespasian, commenced at the furthest distance from Jerusalem in Galilee, and gradually drew nearer and nearer to the doomed city. The Romans were not the only agents in the work of slaughter that depopulated the land; hostile factions among the Jews themselves turned their arms against one another, so that it might be said that “every man’s hand was against his brother.”
Gregg also quotes Josephus (from Wars, 2:18:2): “Every city was divided into two armies encamped one against another…so the daytime was spent in shedding of blood, and the night in fear.” Gregg himself adds (p. 108) that these verses in Revelation 6:3-4 substantiate the words of Jesus when He wept over Jerusalem:
The Jews had rejected the Prince of Peace, who had said, while weeping over Jerusalem, “If you had known…the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes” (Luke 19:42). The next words Jesus spoke predicted the Roman armies invading the land and leveling the city of Jerusalem (Luke 19:43-44). What could speak more directly to the fulfillment of this threat than for Revelation to speak, as here, of one sent to take peace (v. 4) from the land? Zechariah also had predicted this as a consequence of the Jews’ rejection of Christ (Zech. 11:10-14).
At this point, it would be valuable to note that the Preterist viewpoint (which sees this as fulfilled in the land of Israel in the first-century) would be less plausible if the phrase “the earth” here refers to the entire globe. In chapter one,[2] we already got the sense that the predicted events in this book were to be localized, and that they had to do primarily with the land of Israel/Palestine as it existed in John’s day. You may recall that we compared the language of Revelation 1:7 with Matthew 24:30 and Zechariah 12:10-14, and saw (for example) that the term “tribes of the earth” clearly had to do with the tribes of the land of Israel. Kenneth Gentry is especially helpful in his book, “Before Jerusalem Fell” (1998, pp. 128-131), in explaining that “land” and “earth” are often used interchangeably in Scripture, with a meaning that is localized rather than global.A quick glance at a couple of New Testament Scriptures begins to demonstrate this. For example, relating the circumstances surrounding Christ’s death on the cross, Matthew 27:45 in the ESV states, “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all theland until the ninth hour.” A footnote says that “earth” could have been used instead of land in this text, but most readers will conclude that this darkness was localized that day and not global. Looking also at Luke 21:20-24, the context likewise shows that these events belong to Judea and Jerusalem, and even Futurists generally agree that this passage speaks of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem from 67-70 AD. Yet verse 23 says, “…For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.” The phrase “this people” here no doubt refers to the unrepentant Jews, and “the earth” here is the land of Judea. The same is true in Revelation 6.[In our study of Revelation, we will suggest that many of the references to “the earth” in the book of Revelation are not meant to be taken as worldwide in scope, but as dealing instead with the land of Israel/Palestine. In a 3-part study on this subjectbeginning with this post, I have outlined nearly 20 instances where this appears to be the case.]

Pursuing Truth

Revelation Chapter 6 (Part 1) | Pursuing Truth

cont
Revelation is NOT about Isreal and jerusalem. It is about the WHOLE EARTH. and the final beast empire which every nation tribe and language worships (not just a small portion of the earth, the whole earth!)

It does not say 1/3 of isreal fell. it says 1/3 of the population of the earth fell (died)

this is what I mean by trying to make history fit our belief. and not using the word.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Your believing sarasara, and, scholars, and that, along with studying actual history, and, not The Truth, as your source of info for The Rapture, is a much bigger problem, ohzone :(
the pretrib rapture isn't in the bible green.
for the 50,000th time.
not there. at all. anywhere.

don't need history for that.