Do we choose God or did He choose us?

posthuman · Jul 22, 2014

God is sovereign over all His creation.

Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
(Lamentations 3:37)

if i have free will, it's because God chose to create me with it.
if i have a choice, it's because God chose to set that choice before me.

neither extreme makes any sense to me - if i am absolutely free to make any choice, does God not know what i will do? why are there so many scriptures indicating God's sovereign election? but if every detail of every life is predetermined and set, why do we all have an illusory functional independence of will & action? why are there so many scriptures that encourage us to act in one way and not another, if our actions are not our choice to carry out?

light - is it a particle, or is it a wave? well it depends on how you observe it, because it's something else, something that looks like a particle and looks like a wave - something we don't fully comprehend. we know one thing though, that light shines in darkness and it energizes what it shines on.

give thanks in all circumstances
(1 Thessalonians 5:18)

if He chose me, the reason for my gratitude is obvious!
if i chose Him, what? will i thank Him that i am wise enough to seek Him and find Him without prompting?
i thank Him for first choosing to offer me that choice!

just-me · Jul 22, 2014

Ezra 7:12-13
12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

This is the only scripture that says “freewill” without the word “offering” being added to describe the instance.

On the other hand, “predestination” is accompanied with a molding/conforming (not confirmation) process in the following. It doesn't mean a confirmation of predetermined events without the evident actions stated in Ezra chapter 7. In the next scripture we see what happens after salvation, because salvation is a process predestined by God.

Romans 8:28-29
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Yes, He knew, and knows who will respond to His call, and how they will react according to the person. This conforming begins after being born again by the Spirit of God.

Let's take a marriage situation for example. The Bible calls it a mystery that goes deeper than the endorsement of Paul that is supposed to instigate deeper thought of this one subject, like “studying” the situation.

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Say that the husband wants an intimate relationship today. He will ask his wife in the most prudent manner because he loves her, or does he. If she doesn't feel like it at the time, yet succumbs to it because of obligation, the husband has predestined these actions without her feewill. On the other hand, if she has the freewill of desire, she will ask her husband because of respect for him. This sounds good, but a vital part might be missing because in both cases we can detect a certain selfishness if the encounter is based on self desire. The question is what is lacking?

Does the husband desire to embrace his wife because of what he sees in her heart first rather than what he sees attractive about her body? Does the wife desire a result to gratify her physically rather than desire this close contact because of a sincere love that goes much deeper than the physical? Without this vital ingredient, intimate encounters are no different than fornication. The bottom line then is; do we succumb to Christ's call because we feel obligated, or do we desire (of our own freewill) to have an intimate relationship because we want to embrace what we see and love in the character (His name) of our Lord. In every case, whether predestined, or freewill, the priority that propagates desire must come through sincerity in what we love beyond the physical.

There are many debates about the law and grace being at conflict with each other. Nevertheless this applies to what I have written in that faith comes first, not the physical to create the faith, but the physical culminates that which is Spiritual through faith.

gregfl · Jul 22, 2014

Calvinism derived its 3 classes ultimately from the 3 classes in Valentinian Gnosticism (see Ireneaus’ five books Against Heresies):
1. Pneumatics (spirituals) – The elect of the elect.
2. Psuchics (soulys) – The average elect.
3. Hylics (carnals) – The non-elect.

posthuman · Jul 22, 2014

gregfl said:

For when one says, "I follow Paul,"
and another, "I follow Apollos,"
are you not mere human beings?
(1 Corinthians 3:4)

it isn't about 'calvinism' or 'armenianism' for me.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

Tassing & Tagging ; τάσσω

Crossnote Posted Thayer:

a. "to place in a certain order (Xenophon, mem. 3, 1, 7 (9)),
to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint": τινα,
passive, αἱ ἐξουσία ὑπό Θεοῦ τεταγμέναι εἰσιν (A. V. ordained), Rom 13:1; (καιρούς, Acts 17:26. . . .);
ἑαυτόν,
εἰς διακονίαν τίνι, to consecrate (R. V. set) oneself to minister unto one,
1Co 16:15 (ἐπί τήν διακονίαν, Plato, de rep. 2, p. 371 c.; εἰς τήν δουλείαν, Xenophon, mem. 2, 1, 11);

ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωήν αἰώνιον,
as many as were appointed (A. V. ordained) (by God) to obtain eternal life,
or to whom God had decreed eternal life, Acts 13:48;

τινα ὑπό τινα, to put one under another's control (A. V. set under), passive, Matt 8:9 L WH in brackets, the Sinaiticus manuscript; Thayers

Newberry interlinear ...[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"][FONT=#Logos 5 Resource]τεταγμενοι[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]appointed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"][FONT=#Logos 5 Resource]τάσσω[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5021[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]VRPP-(Verb,perfect,passive,participle Newberry, T., & Berry,[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

τάσσω (pf. inf. τεταχέναι ; pf. pass. τέταγμαι, 3 sg. τέτακται )

appoint, designate, set aside; command, order, direct
( ὑπὸ ἐξουσίαν τασσόμενος under the authority of superior officers Lk 7:8);

institute (of governmental authority);
devote (to service);
midd. equivalent to act. fix, set (Ac 28:23);
tell, direct (Mt 28:16)
----------------------------------------------

Let's add on BDAG:

τάσσω
1. to bring about an order of things by arranging, arrange, put in place

a. of an authority structure pass.

αἱ οὖσαι (ἐξουσίαι) ὑπὸ θεοῦ τεταγμέναι εἰσίν
the (structures of authority) presently existing are put in place by God Ro 13:1 ( some interpret as metonymy for officeholders);

established authority in contrast to a rabble MPol 10:2

b. of a pers. put into a specific position, used w. a prep. τάσσειν τινὰ ἐπί τινος
put someone over or in charge of someone or someth.

pass.
On ἄνθρωπος ὑπὸ ἐξουσίαν τασσόμενος Mt 8:9 v.l.; Lk 7:8 s. ἐξουσία 4
(τάσσεσθαι ὑπό τινα).

—τάσσειν τινά εἰςassign someone to a (certain) classification,
used also w. an abstract noun

pass. belong to, be classed among those possessing
ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον Ac 13:48.

τάσσειν ἑαυτὸν εἰς διακονίαν devote oneself to a service
1 Cor 16:15.

2. to give instructions as to what must be done, order, fix, determine, appoint

a. act. and pass., foll. by acc. w. inf.

Ac 15:2; 18:2 v.l. περὶ πάντων ὧν τέτακταί σοι ποιῆσαι concerning everything that you have been ordered to do 22:10

ὁ τεταγμένος ὑπ᾿ αὐτοῦ δρόμος
the course which has been fixed by him (i.e. by God) 1 Clement 20:2 .

κατὰ καιροὺς τεταγμένους at appointed times 40:1

b. mid.=act.

εἰς τὸ ὄρος οὗ ἐτάξατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς (i.e. πορεύεσθαι) Mt 28:16.

ταξάμενοι αὐτῷ ἡμέραν ἦλθον
they set a day for him and came Ac 28:23

---------------------------------------

Comments:

1.to bring about an order of things by arranging,arrange, put in place
a. of an authority structure pass.
αἱ οὖσαι (ἐξουσίαι) ὑπὸ θεοῦ τεταγμέναι εἰσίν
the (structures of authority) presently existing are put in place by God Ro 13:1 ( some interpret as metonymy for officeholders);

[I'll bet that many thought the governors were established by human will, Caesar's say-so.]

b. of a pers. put into a specific position, used w. a prep. τάσσειν τινὰ ἐπί τινος
put someone over or in charge of someone or someth.
—τάσσειν τινά εἰςassign someone to a (certain) classification,

pass. belong to, be classed among those possessing

ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον Ac 13:48.

= as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Before they believed, they had been already assigned to eternal life.

oldthennew · Jul 22, 2014

p_rehbein,

brother, we feel your agony.

as 'solid-ground' said, 'There is none who seeks after God.
this is speaking from a perspective of each person when they
are under the 'powers of this world'.

so God makes the decision to 'lead' one to REPENTANCE,
of which 'everyone' has the 'option' to 'accept or refuse'.

or as Jesus said in John 6:44.
No one can come to Me unless The Father who sent Me draws him;....

so, ROMANS 8:29-30.,
we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
we are predestined to be called and justified, or made righteous.
that is, through the forgiveness of sins, (Step One),

EPHSIANS 1:5.
'predestinated' unto the adoption...(Step One).

PREDESTINATION is really about STEP ONE, and has
nothing to do with ETERNAL SALVATION.........

Jason0047 · Jul 22, 2014

While it is true that no man can come unto God (Christ) unless drawn by the Father (John 6:44) and while it is true that no man can repent unless repentance is granted to them by God (2 Timothy 2:25), it is just as equally true that:

#1. Christ draws ALL men unto Himself (John 12:32),
#2. Christ stands at the door of everyone's heart and knocks so as to come into them (Revelation 3:20),
#3. The Lord (Christ) is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9),
#4. The Lord (Christ) sets before us life and death and desires us to choose life (Deuteronomy 30:19).

For we are elected (chosen) according to God's future foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1, 2) (Pay close attention to verse 2). In other words, God chose us based on Him knowing our future free will choice concerning Him before it happened in our physical concept of time. For God is outside of our linear version of time. For He is sovereign over His creation.

That's why God can say "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated" before they were born because God knew both of their choices long before they were born.

God does not choose some to go to Heaven and some to go to Hell against their free will choice. For if that was the case, then the Judgment would be a farce or a scam. For men at the Judgments are being condemned for what THEY DID and not what God did. For if God was responsible for placing them into a position of "Condemnation" with no hope or choice on their part, then they cannot be blamed or condemned. It would be immoral of God to do something like that.

In other words, that would be sort of like a man creating a robot to kill a bunch of people and then put the robot on trial for killing them. Such an action is stupid because it was the man who created and programmed the robot to kill people who was responsible for it's evil actions.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

posthuman said:

Amen, PostH

What it is about is appreciating the Lord for Who He is, standing in awe of Him, and kneeling in humility before Him.

And I stand, I stand in awe of You;
I stand, I stand in awe of You;
Holy God to Whom all praise is due;
I stand in awe of You.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

Jason0047 said:

While it is true that no man can come unto God (Christ) unless drawn by the Father (John 6:44) and while it is true that no man can repent unless repentance is granted to them by God (2 Timothy 2:25), it is just as equally true that:

#1. Christ draws ALL men unto Himself (John 12:32),
#2. Christ stands at the door of everyone's heart and knocks so as to come into them (Revelation 3:20),
#3. The Lord (Christ) is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9),
#4. The Lord (Christ) sets before us life and death and desires us to choose life (Deuteronomy 30:19).

For we are elected (chosen) according to God's future foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1, 2) (Pay close attention to verse 2). In other words, God chose us based on Him knowing our future free will choice concerning Him before it happened in our physical concept of time. For God is outside of our linear version of time. For He is sovereign over His creation.

That's why God can say "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated" before they were born because God knew both of their choices long before they were born.

God does not choose some to go to Heaven and some to go to Hell against their free will choice. For if that was the case, then the Judgment would be a farce or a scam. For men at the Judgments are being condemned for what THEY DID and not what God did. For if God was responsible for placing them into a position of "Condemnation" with no hope or choice on their part, then they cannot be blamed or condemned. It would be immoral of God to do something like that.

In other words, that would be sort of like a man creating a robot to kill a bunch of people and then put the robot on trial for killing them. Such an action is stupid because it was the man who created and programmed the robot to kill people who was responsible for it's evil actions.

Well Jason, can you look back at your post & distinguish what the Word says and what you yourself say?
For example, the last 2 paragraphs are just you saying it; you exercising your freedom of speech (or was that predetermined?)

SeaBass · Jul 22, 2014

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

Atwood said:

The active voice shows the subject of doing the action himself, not passively forced by God. Why the command to "believe"? Why in Acts 16:31 would the jailer be commanded to believe if he had no choice in the matter? The imperative implies the jailer had choice, had the responsibility and ability within himself to obey the command to believe and be lost if he did not.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

oldthennew said:

I am not contradicting you, Old-New,
But I do ask you to prove that sentence from the Bible.

One way to prove this would be to search the Bible for all the passages where it speaks about "everyone" (a synonym for everyone might be "the world" ). Then narrow that down to where the everyone has option, then narrow that to option to accept or refuse.) Then post us your proof. Or on the other hand, you might wish to retract and say you were just opining.

Jason0047 · Jul 22, 2014

Atwood said:

Not sure where you are coming from. I believe man has free will and that God simply is outside of our linear time to know our future free will choices. God does not force us to believe or not to believe. If you believe so otherwise, then how is that Biblical and how is that moral?

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

SeaBass said:

How do you know that when a verb is in the active voice, that implies not forced?
(Paul put a gun to Peter's head, and Peter entered (active voice) the car).
Prove or retract.

What is your proof that whenever a command to believe is given, the recipient has a choice? Where does scripture say, "Whenever someone gets a command, he has a choice?"

Where does the Bible say that? Where is your proof of that claim?

If you want to get what the Bible says about choice & choosing, you are advised to quote passages that use those words.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

Jason0047 said:

The truth on these matters is not established by an ad hominem.
I am interested in this subject, but require proof from someone who claims something on it.
Scripture is needed.

All that statement is your words, but not proof of anything.
Prove whatever theory you have from the Word -- or perhaps say it is not revealed.

If you think that all other views but your own are not moral and not Biblical, feel free to prove it from the Bible.
The issue is not what I believe, it is your theories & how you are going to prove them from the Bible.

Jason0047 · Jul 22, 2014

Atwood said:

I have cited Scripture verses for what I just said two posts ago, my friend. While I do not adhere to Calvinism or Arminianism in this case, I do tend to lean more towards Arminianism because I believe the Scriptures and life teaches us that we have a free will choice in choosing God or not. My question is: What do you believe? Are you for Calvinism or Arminianism?

eternally-gratefull · Jul 22, 2014

Jason0047 said:

I am for neither.

Calvanism has God sending babies to hell for no reason than other than God said so.

Arminianism preaches that salvation can be lost. Which to me is not placing faith in Christ at all.

Both have flaws.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

oldthennew said:

p_rehbein,

so, ROMANS 8:29-30.,
we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
we are predestined to be called and justified, or made righteous.
that is, through the forgiveness of sins, (Step One),

Why don't you quote the passage? "through the forgiveness of sins" is not there in Romans 8:29-30.
foreknew>foreordained>called>justified>glorified.

Now what is your proof of that one?

Glorified surely implies eternal salvation.

"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Everyone foreordained ends up called & everyone called ends up justified, & everyone justified ends up glorified.

< Eph 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: [must include eternal life, eternal salvation]
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love [must include eternal salvation]:
having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory. [You really don't think that includes eternal salvation???]

Jason0047 · Jul 22, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

Well, what is the moral difference between forcing a baby to go to Hell versus say forcing a person who does not love God (And who prefers the love of their own sin) by dragging them up into Heaven? For if God forced salvation upon people, then why doesn't He just save everyone? For unbelief is just as much of a sin as say murdering and raping somebody. For we are commanded to believe on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23). Just as we are commanded to love God and to love other people in the New Testament (Matthew 22:36-40).

eternally-gratefull · Jul 22, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Depends,

unbelief is a greater sin Murder and rape can be forgiven, Unbelief never will be forgiven.

We are born in unbelief, we must change that unbelief to faith, if we have never done this, it does not matter what sin or lack of sin we have committed, we will be condemned.

and God would never force someone who does not want him to go to heaven. nor does calvin teach this.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 22, 2014

Atwood said:

oldthennew said:

p_rehbein,

so, ROMANS 8:29-30.,
we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
we are predestined to be called and justified, or made righteous.
that is, through the forgiveness of sins, (Step One),

Why don't you quote the passage? "through the forgiveness of sins" is not there in Romans 8:29-30.
foreknew>foreordained>called>justified>glorified.

Now what is your proof of that one?

Glorified surely implies eternal salvation.

"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Everyone foreordained ends up called & everyone called ends up justified, & everyone justified ends up glorified.

< Eph 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: [must include eternal life, eternal salvation]
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love [must include eternal salvation]:
having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory. [You really don't think that includes eternal salvation???]

Ya need to be careful. Jesus called Judas, Yet Judas will not be in heaven with us, He was lost.

not because he gave up salvation, he never trusted Christ.

Do we choose God or did He choose us?

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