Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[SeaBass]

1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Prov 3:31 Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways. Makes no sense if man has no choice.



James 4:17; 1 Cor 2:6-8; all show men have choice, not God forcing His choice on men as to whom they follow.


Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Jesus "would" but the Jews "would not" using their free will choice to go against what Christ wanted for them.


1) if these Jews were predestined by God to be unbelievers - lost, Jesus would know that and why would He desire the opposite of what has already been predestined?

2) if these Jews were predestined by God to be believers - saved, then why do they reject Christ, going against what God predetermined for them and be left desolate?

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

How do you know that when a verb is in the active voice, that implies not forced?
(Paul put a gun to Peter's head, and Peter entered (active voice) the car).
Prove or retract.



What is your proof that whenever a command to believe is given, the recipient has a choice? Where does scripture say, "Whenever someone gets a command, he has a choice?"



Where does the Bible say that? Where is your proof of that claim?

If you want to get what the Bible says about choice & choosing, you are advised to quote passages that use those words.

What is the logic/reason behind the command unto men to 'believe' if men have no choice in that matter?

 

[Atwood]

I am for neither.

Calvanism has God sending babies to hell for no reason than other than God said so.

Arminianism preaches that salvation can be lost. Which to me is not placing faith in Christ at all.

Both have flaws.

Well, eternally-G, I don't know of any evidence that Calvinism sends babies to hell at all. How many Calvinistic systematic theologies say that one? I am not aware of any Systematic Theology of any persuasion that sends babies to hell at all -- there may be; I can't claim to have read them all.

Of course there are persons who are so deterministic in their theology that absolutely everything that happens was predestined by God (not to include babies going to Hell; for I think most or all systematic theologies send them to Heaven).

I got interested in this and did a little search on it. I found Calvin both charged with damning babies to hell & saying no they go to Heaven or are regenerated somehow. I haven't done enough research to be sure on this one. Maybe you have.

This "free republic site" charges Arminians with damning babies & says the contrary for Calvin. I post the link below.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2589730/posts
The Arminian/Wesleyan Dogma of Infant Damnation vs. the Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation

I found this internet quote:

"I do not doubt that the infants whom the Lord gathers together from this life are regenerated by a secret operation of the Holy Spirit." (Amsterdam edition of Calvin's works, 8:522).

I can see that this statement bears parsing. Does this mean that the Lord gathers together all the infants? Or are there some he does not gather? The posted article goes on at length on this.

 

[StoneThrower]

God is sovereign over all His creation.

if i am absolutely free to make any choice, does God not know what i will do?

That would be Open Theism, and your right it makes no sense at all, but its becoming really popular in the Arminnian circles. That God now needs to be reactionary to what man decides.[h=1][/h]

 

[Atwood]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

What is the logic/reason behind the command unto men to 'believe' if men have no choice in that matter?

Dear SeaBass, if you make a claim, you have the burden of proof. If you think it is illogical to command persons to do something when they have no choice, then prove it.

Prove for example,
If John commands Bill to do something,
Bill has no choice.

Prove,
Whenever God commands someone to do something,
The person has a choice.

Quote your scripture.
Or retract.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, eternally-G, I don't know of any evidence that Calvinism sends babies to hell at all. How many Calvinistic systematic theologies say that one?

The calvanistic interpretation of romans 9 (which I highly reject) has God chosing to save Jacob, and chosing to send esau to hell before they are even born.

That is saying God is sending babies to hell

Of course there are persons who are so deterministic in their theology that absolutely everything that happens was predestined by God (not to include babies going to Hell; for I think most or all systematic theologies send them to Heaven).

I got interested in this and did a little search on it. I found Calvin both charged with damning babies to hell & saying no they go to Heaven or are regenerated somehow. I haven't done enough research to be sure on this one. Maybe you have.

Again just going off romans 9. If esau died as a baby, then God sent a baby to hell. how many babies then were chosen to hell before they were born?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

Dear SeaBass, if you make a claim, you have the burden of proof. If you think it is illogical to command persons to do something when they have no choice, then prove it.

Prove for example,
If John commands Bill to do something,
Bill has no choice.

Prove,
Whenever God commands someone to do something,
The person has a choice.

Quote your scripture.
Or retract.

your joking right?

Of course they would have a choice. they may suffer severe consequences if they make the wrong choice, but they have a choice.

 

[StoneThrower]

Calvinism derived its 3 classes ultimately from the 3 classes in Valentinian Gnosticism (see Ireneaus’ five books Against Heresies):
1. Pneumatics (spirituals) – The elect of the elect.
2. Psuchics (soulys) – The average elect.
3. Hylics (carnals) – The non-elect.

It was Augustine that came up with the doctrines of grace.

 

[Atwood]

1 Kings 18:21
Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Congrats Seabass on actually bringing up scripture.

Joshua ordered them to choose. Do you have some proof that they chose & chose God?
Judges says they chose idols.
The question of this thread is, do men choose God?
Further it may be asked, can men choose contrary to their nature?
Can God choose to be evil?
Could the Lord Jesus choose to sin?

Do you have some proof that men can choose to do good?

30:19

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

How does this verse prove that the people had the power to choose good?

Prov 3:31

Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways. Makes no sense if man has no choice.

How does an order prove the man had choice? Where does scripture say that being ordered to choose good implies one can choose good? Men are ordered to be perfect in the Sermon on the Mount. Does that prove they can be perfect?

James 4:17; 1 Cor 2:6-8; all show men have choice, not God forcing His choice on men as to whom they follow.

No those verses say no such thing.

Mt 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Jesus "would" but the Jews "would not" using their free will choice to go against what Christ wanted for them.

Men choose evil in the Bible. But where does an unregenerate person ever choose to do good?
What verse says that all men have free will choice?

1) if these Jews were predestined by God to be unbelievers - lost, Jesus would know that and why would He desire the opposite of what has already been predestined?

The issue of this thread is not double-predestination. The subject is whether men choose God.

2) if these Jews were predestined by God to be believers - saved, then why do they reject Christ, going against what God predetermined for them and be left desolate?

Where does scripture say that the were predestined to be believers? Where does your reference say that they had to power to choose God?

 

[Atwood]

It was Augustine that came up with the doctrines of grace.

I thought that grace was a major topic in the Bible.

 

[StoneThrower]

The calvanistic interpretation of romans 9 (which I highly reject) has God chosing to save Jacob, and chosing to send esau to hell before they are even born.

That is saying God is sending babies to hell



Again just going off romans 9. If esau died as a baby, then God sent a baby to hell. how many babies then were chosen to hell before they were born?

[/SIZE]

So lets think this through, All men are born sinners correct? David said in sin he was concieved. So whether your a baby or not, your still born of the seed of man and with a sin nature.

Being a baby has nothing to do with the issue of sin, they are not somehow sinless till a magical age and then they become a sinner. Is there any scriptural proof for the age of accountability? No, theres not.

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated needs to be taken in context, the older will server the younger. God didnt choose the first born for the line of the Christ. The verse says nothing about sending anyone to hell and Esau was blessed by God and became a nation that unfortunatley is still a thorn in our flesh day.
So if your elect your elect, and it makes no differnt if your a baby or not.

 

[StoneThrower]

I thought that grace was a major topic in the Bible.

Gods Redemptive plan of salvation is the major theme of the Bible, that includes Gods Grace.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

your joking right?

Of course they would have a choice. they may suffer severe consequences if they make the wrong choice, but they have a choice.

All I am asking is that if God commands someone to do something, what is the proof that such a command implies they have a choice. Moreover, if God commands men to do good, does that prove they can choose the good. Scripture is requested.

It comes to my mind that men are commanded in the Sermon on the Mount to be perfect, but does that imply they have a choice to be perfect?

The Lord Jesus commanded the woman at the well to go and get her husband. Does that imply she had the choice to do that (since she had no husband)?

IMHO, if we are going to discuss choice & choosing, we should stick to scripture which uses that language.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

All I am asking is that if God commands someone to do something, what is the proof that such a command implies they have a choice. Moreover, if God commands men to do good, does that prove they can choose the good. Scripture is requested.

It comes to my mind that men are commanded in the Sermon on the Mount to be perfect, but does that imply they have a choice to be perfect?

The Lord Jesus commanded the woman at the well to go and get her husband. Does that imply she had the choice to do that (since she had no husband)?

IMHO, if we are going to discuss choice & choosing, we should stick to scripture which uses that language.

to be honest. not quite sure what your trying to prove, non of what you said makes any sense as far as the conversation goes..

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

Dear SeaBass, if you make a claim, you have the burden of proof. If you think it is illogical to command persons to do something when they have no choice, then prove it.

Prove for example,
If John commands Bill to do something,
Bill has no choice.

Prove,
Whenever God commands someone to do something,
The person has a choice.

Quote your scripture.
Or retract.

My proof is "believe" is in the imperative and the imperative implies the jailers had a choice to obey that command or not.

Where is your proof he had no choice in obeying or not obeying a direct command given him? Where is your logic behind giving commands to those that supposedly have no choice in obeying or disobeying commands?

 

[Atwood]

The calvanistic interpretation of romans 9 (which I highly reject) has God chosing to save Jacob, and chosing to send esau to hell before they are even born.

That is saying God is sending babies to hell

There is neither anything about babies or hell in the passage. Romans 9 is quite clear; it is not a matter of Calvin's interp. There is nothing about Esau dying as a baby there. Babies are foreign to the text. BTW, eternal, read Rom 9 again; there is nothing about Esau going to Hell there either. The election is to privilege; salvation & eternal life are not mentioned there. It looks like status in this earthly life to me. With Esau, the issue is not going to hell. It has nothing to do with babies dying in infancy (Esau did not do that; I think most full Calvinists would say God already had planned that Esau would grow to be an adult).

Who decided that I would be born in the USA at the height of civilization and that others would be born in a shack in the jungle in a stone age civilization?

[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So lets think this through, All men are born sinners correct? David said in sin he was concieved. So whether your a baby or not, your still born of the seed of man and with a sin nature.

Being a baby has nothing to do with the issue of sin, they are not somehow sinless till a magical age and then they become a sinner. Is there any scriptural proof for the age of accountability? No, theres not.

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated needs to be taken in context, the older will server the younger. God didnt choose the first born for the line of the Christ. The verse says nothing about sending anyone to hell and Esau was blessed by God and became a nation that unfortunatley is still a thorn in our flesh day.
So if your elect your elect, and it makes no differnt if your a baby or not.

according to the calvanistic view of romans 9. God chose to send esau to hell. and jacob to heaven, and how dare anyone question god.

I believe this is not what paul said at all. I think he was answering the argument, God chose israel based on his chosing, not because of the will of men, or because jacob was a better person that esau and deserved it.

 

[StoneThrower]

Well, eternally-G, I don't know of any evidence that Calvinism sends babies to hell at all. How many Calvinistic systematic theologies say that one? I am not aware of any Systematic Theology of any persuasion that sends babies to hell at all -- there may be; I can't claim to have read them all.

Of course there are persons who are so deterministic in their theology that absolutely everything that happens was predestined by God (not to include babies going to Hell; for I think most or all systematic theologies send them to Heaven).

I got interested in this and did a little search on it. I found Calvin both charged with damning babies to hell & saying no they go to Heaven or are regenerated somehow. I haven't done enough research to be sure on this one. Maybe you have.

This "free republic site" charges Arminians with damning babies & says the contrary for Calvin. I post the link below.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2589730/posts
The Arminian/Wesleyan Dogma of Infant Damnation vs. the Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation

I found this internet quote:

"I do not doubt that the infants whom the Lord gathers together from this life are regenerated by a secret operation of the Holy Spirit." (Amsterdam edition of Calvin's works, 8:522).

I can see that this statement bears parsing. Does this mean that the Lord gathers together all the infants? Or are there some he does not gather? The posted article goes on at length on this.

Johhny MAC says that babbies dont qualify for Gods plan of salvation, as they arent able to understand sin and turn from it so God must have a plan B for them since they dont qualify. Although this might provide comfort for a grieving mother its not in the Bible.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

My proof is "believe" is in the imperative and the imperative implies the jailers had a choice to obey that command or not.

You give no proof that an imperative implies a choice to obey.
The Lord gave a command to the woman at the well to go get her husband -- she could not chose to obey that one (John 4).

Where is your proof

If I make an assertion, you may ask for proof, but I don't take tasks to prove things I never posted.

You have no proof for your theory that an imperative implies ability to choose to obey it.
If so, let me know when you choose & obey the command to be perfect as the Father is.

Give the proof or retract.

 

[StoneThrower]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

What is the logic/reason behind the command unto men to 'believe' if men have no choice in that matter?

Men have a part they do choose, but its not their choice that saves them.