Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[SolidGround]

Romans 3
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Furthermore
We all agree that we were once wicked,
before we were born again in Christ.

But here it says in John 3
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

We did not come to Christ. He came to us.
We would reject the light, if not for the faith that He gave us to believe.

 

[Atwood]

In NT, God is the Choser; the Elect are the Chosen

The Big question we have is why did God choose certain ones, the elect. Why did He choose me. I don't think scripture answers that, and that we will be as Job in this life, not knowing why he suffered (tho in our case it isn't suffering). Now if someone has passage that tells WHY God chose whom He chose, kindly post it for us all to see.

Poverty is given as a factor in James:

Hearken, my beloved brethren; did not God choose them that are poor as to the world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to them that love him?

but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:


Here are some NT passages where God is chooser,
(some) men (the elect) are the chosen:

[I omit a definite choice to a job, like to be apostle]

Christ is Himself the chosen, and the elect were chosen in Christ

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

Salute Rufus the chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

For many are called, but few chosen.

And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days.


Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me.

Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they sojourned in the land of Egypt, and with a high arm led he them forth out of it.

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[Atwood]

Mary of Bethany Chose the Good Part

The closest I have found in the NT for someone choosing God is the story of Mary of Bethany.

But Martha was cumbered about much serving; and she came up to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister did leave me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. But the Lord answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art anxious and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful: for Mary hath chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

It doesn't say she chose God, but it is clear from the context that she chose to sit at the feet of the Lord Jesus & pay attention to Him and what He said. This was an alternative to working for Him. This is not an example of a unsaved person choosing God, however.

 

[StoneThrower]

Haven't read a scripture saying that anyone chose to believe or accept God. Weather the other way around

He chose us before the foundation of the world, and we respond in repentace and faith when our eyes are opened by Him to our sin and a need for a savior.

 

[Atwood]

Is Seeking the Lord Choosing the Lord?

Is seeking the Lord Choosing the Lord? The concept of seeking and choosing overlap. Of course you might seek something, but after finding it decide you don't want it.

But I think there is a separate thread going on the concept of seeking.

Through my mind runs the great classical-ish sacred song:

Seek ye the Lord while He may be found;
Call ye upon Him while He is near;
Let the wicked forsake His ways
& the unrighteous man his thoughts . . .

He will have mercy & abundantly pardon.

It is a beautiful song.

 

[StoneThrower]

Here, this should make it easier for you............

http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/95927-do-we-have-free-will.html

Define free will if you mean in a liberterian sense than no. Is it free yes within Gods will as nothing happens outside the will of God.

 

[StoneThrower]

I hope so, but I may not be, God can justly put me in hell and I would deserve it

We all deserve it, there is none good no not one. Thats what makes Gods Grace Amazing, that he should save any of us.

 

[StoneThrower]

When mankind fell in Adam in the garden mankind received the knowledge of good and evil. It is now incumbent on man to make the choice and discern between good and evil. Jesus taught in John chapter 3 that men do in fact choose to remain in darkness because their deeds are evil. God is not willing that any should perish but that all men should come to repentance. All men are drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit when they hear the word of God many pull back and turn away from the Spirit's call.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Its called irrestable grace

"More specifically irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved. If our doctrine of total depravity is true, there can be no salvation without the reality of irresistible grace. If we are dead in our sins, totally unable to submit to God, then we will never believe in Christ unless God overcomes our rebellion."


Unlike the Gospels, these latest tales don't have deep roots

 

[p_rehbein]

Define free will if you mean in a liberterian sense than no. Is it free yes within Gods will as nothing happens outside the will of God.

That's a good point actually. People here speak of Predestination (without actually defining predestination) and Free Will (without actually defining Free Will).......which makes it easy for confusion and discussion to occur.

After doing some research, this is what I have found concerning free will.

Definition of will:
n. noun
1. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action. championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.

2. The act of exercising the will.

3. Diligent purposefulness; determination. an athlete with the will to win.
v. verb

1. To decide on; choose.

2. To yearn for; desire.

3. To decree, dictate, or order.
FREE WILL

1 : voluntary choice or decision < I do this of my own free will>

2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention



For the definition of predestination, one can read the thread concerning Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. Theology......

 

[Atwood]

Not a Lot of Data Comes from &quot;Choice,&quot; but Acts 15 !

I searched the ASV for "choice," but found that the usual meaning is "best," like He served up the choice sheep for his guests.

Acts 15 has an interesting instance where Peter is speaking:

Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

We can add this passage to the evidence that God gives faith
"to you it has been given . . . to believe").

Peter himself is the chosen, chosen for a task, that task being that Gentiles should hear & believe.

It seems to me that the basic conflict between
those who confess that God in His sovereignty has elected men to belief & salvation
vs.
those who deny it & vociferate on "free will,"
is that
those who endorse this election do it because they feel forced by scripture to that position
while the opponents rely on common sense and the conviction that such action by God would be unfair.

Is it possible that God in His sovereignty elected men to belief & salvation (so that it inevitably happens), and at the same time men have uncompelled free will?

 

[p_rehbein]

QUOTED:

Its called irrestable grace

"More specifically irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved. If our doctrine of total depravity is true, there can be no salvation without the reality of irresistible grace. If we are dead in our sins, totally unable to submit to God, then we will never believe in Christ unless God overcomes our rebellion."

END QUOTATON.........

On the surface, this sounds good..........however, when one actually applies the full concept of predestination to it, the air from this balloon quickly escapes..........

If predestination is truth........then neither total depravity nor irresistible grace are necessary. In fact, the entire Bible is moot as to even being necessary. After all, the full concept/idea/purpose of predestination is that God has from the beginning made every decision every man will face for that man, and the man has no say so. Those predestined to eternal life will receive eternal life and those predestined to eternal damnation, will receive eternal damnation.


No reason for the Bible. No reason for the 1st Covenant or any of the Laws (Mosaic or God's), no reason for the birth, ministry, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, no reason for a salvation plan, no reason for man to do anything. Whatever man does has been predetermined from the beginning............

Commandments? Why bother? Repentance? Why bother? Brotherly Love? Why bother? Good Works? Why bother? Striving to live Christ-like? Why bother?

It has all been predetermined. If a person is one of the lucky salvation lotto winners, they will receive eternal life. If a person is one of the losers.........well.........eternal damnation is their future........doesn't matter what either thinks......oh, what am I saying, under predestination, one does not have the ability for form an opinion/idea or thought that has not been predetermined.............

Predestination, in it's basic form, turns all mankind into preprogramed beings with no hope of anything other than what has been predetermined for them/their lives.

 

[bikerchaz]

Not long after my conversion I wanted Jesus to touch those whom I had been a part of within the motorbike and drug world. Eventually I was led to do an auto jumble at a car boot sale (swap meet) held at 'devils bridge' in Kirby Lonsdale, where all the bikers meet on a weekend. The heading I used for the stall was "Be Chosen", I know that God dose not want anyone to go to hell, but I also know that we do have a choice to be chosen, it is our choice, we can not be made to accept Him or forced to love Him, but in my spirit I know with a certainty that we can chose to be chosen.

 

[crossnote]

God works in us in such a way that we end up 'choosing' Him.
The latter half of this process is often confused with 'free will'.

 

[p_rehbein]

God works in us in such a way that we end up 'choosing' Him.
The latter half of this process is often confused with 'free will'.

.............hardly qualifies in any sense of the word as a "choice"...........just saying........

Preprogrammed responses/actions can not be validated as a "choice."

 

[crossnote]

Or try this one on for size...

''Compatibilism, in contrast to Libertarian free will, teaches that people are free, but defines freedom differently. Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) their moral nature. Man freely makes choices, but those choices are determined by the condition of his heart and mind (i.e. his moral nature). Libertarian free will maintains that for any choice made, one could always equally have chosen otherwise, or not chosen at all.''

This is why it takes a work of God on the heart.

 

[p_rehbein]

Or try this one on for size...

''Compatibilism, in contrast to Libertarian free will, teaches that people are free, but defines freedom differently. Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) their moral nature. Man freely makes choices, but those choices are determined by the condition of his heart and mind (i.e. his moral nature). Libertarian free will maintains that for any choice made, one could always equally have chosen otherwise, or not chosen at all.''

Worthy of consideration I suppose, however, as yet, I have not chosen to give my full attention to it.......worry not, I will surely make a choice soon...........

 

[Atwood]

That's a good point actually. People here speak of Predestination (without actually defining predestination) and Free Will (without actually defining Free Will).......which makes it easy for confusion and discussion to occur.

This is not bad as an attempt to clarify what we are talking about, but why not find the concept in the Bible and see how it is self-defined there? For example, the term hechousios / hechousion (Awe heck -- I am oozing into something). NT = ἑκούσιος / ἑκούσιον

 

[p_rehbein]

[h=1]The Apostle Paul lied to us

1 Timothy
2[/h]
1 .) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 .) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 .) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 .) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 .) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 .) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Clearly the Apostle lied to us.........for God, has from the beginning, predestined those who would be saved, and, from the beginning, predestined those who would be forever damned.

 

[p_rehbein]

Been reading what Jesus said, and I just can't understand why He would say such things.............

Matthew 5:46) . For….. IF….. ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And….. IF ….. ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?


Matthew 6:19) Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 .) But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 .) For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 6:33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


Matthew 7:1) Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2
.) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again


Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 .) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Matthew 7:24) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

I just don't understand why Jesus would say these things, for He surely knows all of this has been predetermined by God from the beginning..........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Been reading what Jesus said, and I just can't understand why He would say such things.............

Matthew 5:46) . For….. IF….. ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And….. IF ….. ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?


Matthew 6:19) Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 .) But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 .) For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 6:33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


Matthew 7:1) Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2
.) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again


Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 .) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Matthew 7:24) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

I just don't understand why Jesus would say these things, for He surely knows all of this has been predetermined by God from the beginning..........

I would say it was predetermined.

It was predetermined that all who came to Christ would recieve those things. based on their faith in him. based on their free will choice.

Oh wait. More importantly., Based on God knowing what Jesus was going to do in some place called jerusalem, which was not even created yet (wink) which opens up the floodgates to all who will believe to come to him.