Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[Angela53510]

Never mind that you didn't believe Calvinism the first time you heard it. And you still must maintain it through self-deprecation. Author and Finisher doesn't mean he "made you believe" in fact what you will find is that God never saved anyone who didn't ask him to. Stop making implications because you're afraid that your faith will disintegrate if your doctrinal system is exposed. You are using your free-will right now to hold to Calvinism instead of the Bible. You use your free-will to hold to Calvinism every time someone exposes it and stirs up doubt and fear in your mind. Why won't you let go of it and be set free by the truth?

I was in Arminian or "free choice" churches the first 15 years I was saved. I was constantly guilty and worrying about my salvation, because I knew I had no goodness in me that was worth saving or keeping.

When I went to Seminary, we studied all the different soteriological viewpoints. I did not read Calvin at all, just had to learn TULIP and hyperlaparianism, etc. for the exam. I decided to read my Bible instead. I could not find any reference in the Bible to God choosing people to be damned. So I do not believe in Calvinism, although I did find so many verses relating to eternal security. I gave up the Arminian heresy, and I have been closer to God than in all those early years of hearing how I could lose my salvation in a moment of weakness.

So I did let go of the lie of free will, and I become more and more convinced that God holds me in the palm of his hand and will never leave or forsake me every day I walk with Christ.

"Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” Hebrews 13:5

I go to a non-reformed Baptist, where our excellent pastor with a Ph.D preaches that we cannot lose our salvation. I can only feel sorry for someone who thinks he chose God, instead of realizing that the sovereign Lord of the universe, the author of ALL things, and the finisher of everything, loves us and knows our frame (Psalm 139) and has chosen us before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4)

It just doesn't get any clearer than this. Read your Bible and see that God has called and saved you. You do not save yourself by choosing God.

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29

By the way, because I am a pastor and chaplain, brow-beating me is not going to get me to change my theology. Especially because I have yet to see one verse posted in this thread which supports the premise that we choose God. Give me the Bible verses, and lots of them, and I will be open to listen and consider. I do not listen to ignorant people who know a church doctrine, but not their Bible!

I am just so glad that God chose to a wretch like me! Hallelujah!

 

[Butch5]

I was in Arminian or "free choice" churches the first 15 years I was saved. I was constantly guilty and worrying about my salvation, because I knew I had no goodness in me that was worth saving or keeping.

In my opinion this is the driving force behind Calvinism and OSAS.

 

[Butch5]

I was in Arminian or "free choice" churches the first 15 years I was saved. I was constantly guilty and worrying about my salvation, because I knew I had no goodness in me that was worth saving or keeping.

When I went to Seminary, we studied all the different soteriological viewpoints. I did not read Calvin at all, just had to learn TULIP and hyperlaparianism, etc. for the exam. I decided to read my Bible instead. I could not find any reference in the Bible to God choosing people to be damned. So I do not believe in Calvinism, although I did find so many verses relating to eternal security. I gave up the Arminian heresy, and I have been closer to God than in all those early years of hearing how I could lose my salvation in a moment of weakness.

So I did let go of the lie of free will, and I become more and more convinced that God holds me in the palm of his hand and will never leave or forsake me every day I walk with Christ.

"Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” Hebrews 13:5

I go to a non-reformed Baptist, where our excellent pastor with a Ph.D preaches that we cannot lose our salvation. I can only feel sorry for someone who thinks he chose God, instead of realizing that the sovereign Lord of the universe, the author of ALL things, and the finisher of everything, loves us and knows our frame (Psalm 139) and has chosen us before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4)

It just doesn't get any clearer than this. Read your Bible and see that God has called and saved you. You do not save yourself by choosing God.

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29

By the way, because I am a pastor and chaplain, brow-beating me is not going to get me to change my theology. Especially because I have yet to see one verse posted in this thread which supports the premise that we choose God. Give me the Bible verses, and lots of them, and I will be open to listen and consider. I do not listen to ignorant people who know a church doctrine, but not their Bible!

I am just so glad that God chose to a wretch like me! Hallelujah!

I don't believe there are any passages of Scripture that support OSAS. I think the arguments for it are straw man arguments. The typical argument is something like this, 'is man stronger than God' or can a man be unborn and such. These don't address the real issue which is not God's faithfulness but rather man's. In order to prove that one cannot be lost one must prove that a man who believes cannot change his mind. However, we have passages of Scripture that indicate just that.

 

[Kerry]

It is God's will that no man should perish, but that all should repent to everlasting life.

This shows us that on an individual level, that God's will is not reality. Because, not everyone is saved, in reality. God can bring us to a point to where it seems as we have no choice, but in reality we do. Us choosing God is complex, because there are many factors. For instance, a mother praying for her son's salvation. Now God, wants to answer the mother's prayer, but at the same time, must respect the will of the son. So God can cause circumstances to arise, where the son must make a choice and accepting Christ is the highly favored choice our his life gets worse and worse. Because Mamma is still praying. Then it gets so bad, that the son falls to his knees and say's Lord you are the only one who can help me. Mamma wins.

 

[godtruck]

"...not my will, but thine be done."

 

[Angela53510]

Still waiting for some Bible verses which support the free will or "Arminian" heresy.

I have posted many that show that God calls us, redeems us and is with us to the end. I can post many more if necessary.

"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." 1 Cor. 13:12

Then there is the Greek regarding the word "transformed," in Romans 12:2 and 2 Cor. 3:18

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

"Be transformed" is metanorphousthe (μεταμορφοῦσθε) in Romans 12:2 and "Being transformed" is metamorphoumetha (μεταμορφούμεθα) in 2 Cor. 3:18. The first is the present imperative passive, which means we are commanded to let God change or transform us. The second is the present indicative passive, which means God works on us to change our inward reality or to transform us. We do not change ourselves!

If you want to deal with salvation, then how about the following:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesusbefore the ages began" 2 Tim. 1:9

Saved is σώσαντος or sosantos, and it is in the aorist active participle. Called is καλέσαντος or kalesantos and is in the same tense. Both saved and called are describing the saving and calling as characteristics of the CHARACTER OF GOD!

I am not interested in reading any more posts which do not have Scriptural support for their position with regards to soteriology. For that matter, prove it in the Greek and/or Hebrew, if you have a point to share. I am quite sure I will be able to refute it, not because I am anything great or special, but because God left these important truths throughout the bible. HE calls and HE saves and HE transforms and HE glorifies, it is not of ourselves.

"Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God," 2 Cor. 3:5

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,[SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

 

[kennethcadwell]

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.


Free will; either you repent and not perish, or don't repent and perish

The choice is yours.

 

[posthuman]

Still waiting for some Bible verses which support the free will or "Arminian" heresy.

there is the familiar "choose this day whom you will serve" --- (Joshua 24:15)

interestingly, Joshua spoke this ultimatum to the *ahem* chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6), because Joshua had been *cough* chosen to lead them (Numbers 27:12-23).

if we are all automatons, there would be no cause for God to chastise us for wrong or exhort us to do right. but if i can independently undo the will of the all-knowing and almighty God, He is not sovereign. i'm not sure that the modern western world (or even the eastern) has the philosophical digestive system necessary to truly absorb the true nature of the human condition. i'm certainly not going to claim that i can.

plain scripture in numerous places and times indicates that God chooses people for purposes before they are ever conceived. much observational and circumstantial evidence inside and outside of scripture indicates at the very least a functional perceived freedom of action. what can we say from that? all i can do is trust a sovereign God, and if i am (whether in true or functional reality) able to do so, choose life over death.

 

[nowyouseem033]

there is the familiar "choose this day whom you will serve" --- (Joshua 24:15)

interestingly, Joshua spoke this ultimatum to the *ahem* chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6), because Joshua had been *cough* chosen to lead them (Numbers 27:12-23)

if we are all automatons, there would be no cause for God to chastise us for wrong or exhort us to do right. but if i can independently undo the will of the all-knowing and almighty God, He is not sovereign. i'm not sure that the modern western world (or even the eastern) has the philosophical digestive system necessary to truly absorb the true nature of the human condition. i'm certainly not going to claim that i can.

plain scripture in numerous places and times indicates that God chooses people for purposes before they are ever conceived. much observational and circumstantial evidence inside and outside of scripture indicates at the very least a functional perceived freedom of action. what can we say from that? all i can do is trust a sovereign God, and if i am (whether in true or functional reality) able to do so, choose life over death.

wow way out of context

 

[posthuman]

wow way out of context

fair enough;

put it in context then?

 

[godtruck]

"Be transformed" is metanorphousthe (μεταμορφοῦσθε) in Romans 12:2 and "Being transformed" is metamorphoumetha (μεταμορφούμεθα) in 2 Cor. 3:18. The first is the present imperative passive, which means we are commanded to let God change or transform us. The second is the present indicative passive, which means God works on us to change our inward reality or to transform us. We do not change ourselves!

Wow Angela this is good news...sort has the same feeling as the gospel. I wonder why (hee hee)

 

[p_rehbein]

Biblical support of free will
Examples of Biblical passages used to argue for free will:
Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"
Joshua 24:15 "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
Ezekiel 18:32 "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the LORD. Repent and live!"
I John 4:8 "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." NKJ
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Matthew 9:29 "Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."
1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
2 Corinthians 5:15 "He died for all, so that those who might live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised." NAB
Jeremiah 18:7-10 "The instant I speak concerning a nation, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, and if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it." NKJ
I Timothy 2: 3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." NKJ
II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." NKJ

 

[thecreationtutor]

Quote mining of Scripture to prove our point is never a good idea - eisegesis - I had one person describe it like a door which I found useful - God is on one side, man is on the other - to the man it appears he's opening it in the finite, but it is God who is opening it in the infinite

 

[thecreationtutor]

People can not be objective completely, it is impossible to separate them from their own agenda's, bias, feelings, background, and iniquity(though freed in Christ)

We should probably ask questions of our own selves

Why do I stand so strongly on this view?
What experiences may have led me to believe this?
Am I putting on Scripture something I want to be true?
Is my view true to the overall of Scripture?
Is this a Major doctrine of Scripture that everyone has to believe - in this case No
Can I still argue this point and love the person - in my case usually not!


I would assume there is more questions, and these are hard to ask ourselves, as we like to fire then aim

 

[p_rehbein]

Quote mining of Scripture to prove our point is never a good idea - eisegesis - I had one person describe it like a door which I found useful - God is on one side, man is on the other - to the man it appears he's opening it in the finite, but it is God who is opening it in the infinite

Refer you to "Comment # 106, this thread, first sentence............."

And, not for nothing, but IF posting the Word of God is NEVER a GOOD IDEA, then what purpose does the Word of God serve?

 

[Apostol2013]

Ouch! This thread has a bit of anger attached it seems.

It's not possible for Predestination to be heresy, because it is clearly all over Scripture.

It is not possible to over look words and phrases like 'chosen', 'elect', 'foreordained', 'prepared in advance', 'plan'.

The third thing one must realize is the implications of the word 'chosen'. If God chose everyone, then God didn't choose anyone. The word 'chosen' is selective, and finite. It is meaningless to define it as a general phrase for all of man, and nullifies the context and meaning of many verses into being wastes of words to say nothing.

We should not redefine terms to suit our preconceived notions. We should submit to Scripture, and pray for understanding.

Don't go looking up someone else's interpretation or teaching on such a topic: read for yourself, and let the HS teach you.


I spent nearly 30 years thinking predestination and election were dangerous heresies, because that's what I was taught. I never read anything from Calvin (and I still don't really know what TULIP stands for, nor do I care) but I have found in my Bible that what I was taught actually was denying God's Sovereignty, and placing man as governor of his own salvation instead of Christ.

I know that this won't change anyone's mind, nor do I intend for it to,
but I do hope to see a productive conversation instead of a group of people all calling each other heretics.
If you reject your brother, does it change the blood that you share by (new)birth?

The word says blessed are those who thirst after righteousness for they shall be satisfied many believers have been in doctrine of error doctrine defining teaching , but blessed are those who want life and really know or wicj to know our Lord and who He )as called us to be im glad you have been searching yes the holy spirit is our discerner ,when we live the life of perfection in Christ being perfection because christ has made us complete and lives in us because we have believed therefore we bear much fruit but our goal is to have good fruit so that the brethren may have life also blessed are you my brother i love you

 

[thecreationtutor]

Refer you to "Comment # 106, this thread, first sentence............."

And, not for nothing, but IF posting the Word of God is NEVER a GOOD IDEA, then what purpose does the Word of God

I would certainly hope you by this time in your life know what Eisegesis is and that you can use verses out of context to create damaging results.

- i mean if your trying to use it to harden someones heart against God, esiegesis is a good way to do it

 

[p_rehbein]

Refer you to "Comment # 106, this thread, first sentence............."

And, not for nothing, but IF posting the Word of God is NEVER a GOOD IDEA, then what purpose does the Word of God

I would certainly hope you by this time in your life know what Eisegesis is and that you can use verses out of context to create damaging results.

Uh, ok, so IF YOU deem a Scripture to be quoted "out of context" then it is so! Is that about right? Goodness............

Sister Angela asked for Scriptures used to support "free will." I provided them. You disagree that they support free will?

Well, goodness, as YOU disagree, then it must needs be that I am completely wrong, and a horrible person, suffering from an incessant desire to delve into Eisegesis behavior............gee, thanks for your correction...........

 

[p_rehbein]

Dear Sister, another scripture to consider:

Hebrews 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[SeaBass]

Haven't read a scripture saying that anyone chose to believe or accept God. Weather the other way around

Then why the command to 'believe' in the NT? The imperative implies man has both ability and responsibility to obey that command. 'Whosoever' choose to obey that command should be saved. If man is unable to believe, and God alone determines who will believe, then purely pointless and nonsensical for the bible to command men to believe.