Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[ThePottersClay]

I call it Calvinism for it is based upon the teachings men (John Calvin being a main one) and not based upon the gospel of Christ.

God pre-selected/foreknew/predestined a GROUP that would be called "Christian" but God never pre-selected/foreknew/predestined what individual would or would not b e in that group, each individual must decide that for him/herself.

So the bible teaches predestination (group) but not the Calvinistic idea of predestination (individual)

I have no clue about Calvanism to be honest (I'll study it more in debt), but all I know is that when "Predestination" is mentioned, animosity rises and whispers of "Oh no, it's Calvanism" fills a room...

I ask the question.... if its only Group based, then who was Judas, and why was he elected to hand Christ over from the foundation of the earth, throughout the old testament you have instances where Individuals were "selected" to fulfill the plan of God and those who were selected to be collateral damage for the plan to be executed. What stops God from still selecting individuals?

 

[posthuman]

Just want to point out to Calvinists that the "all things" in the verse are all things within God's nature. Sure, God is Sovereign but even His Sovereignty is limited by His own nature. There are some things Calvinists cannot give an explanation, as why/what basis did God use before the world began to unconditionally choose "Joe" and not "Bob", so they simply says "It's God's Sovereignty". Again, just showing God's Sovereignty has limits.

just wanted to point out that there are some things the apostle Paul didn't give an explanation for.
for example why God could show mercy to one man and not another.
so Paul "simply" says God is sovereign, and man is not.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory —
even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

(Romans 9:14-26)

 

[Hoffco]

Joshua 24:14) Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15 .) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

now, go away little troll.............

NOW, I see,!? You MOCK the truth of God's eternal love choice of those He is saving. RIGHT? SO. You are NOT Reformed..? Just asking.? Love Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

Groups don't get saved, individuals do.


Acts 13:48 *And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Individuals in the GROUP are saved, individuals outside the GROUP are lost. Why? Because it was the GROUP God foreknew/prechose/predestined and not the individual.

The context leading up to Acts 13:48 does not support Calvinism.

Acts 13:43 "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."

There is no "persuasion" in what God supposedly preordained. Persuasion has to do with the will of men, they must choose of their own will to remain in God's grace for if God preordained who would or would not be in His grace, there is no persuasion for men can only do what God forces man to do.

Acts 13:47 "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth".

"Ends of the earth" is figurative for all nations, every man. So salvation is not just meant for just lucky ones God randomly chosen.

-----------

Furthermore:

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Note that is was the Gentiles own free will, own desire of the Gentiles to hear the word of God preach and it was this free will and desire that lead them to hear Paul preach and be saved.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


So in the context, Luke is contrasting the Jews who of their own free will choice put God's word away from themselves to the Gentiles free will choice in wanting to hear Gods word. In verse 48, the underlying Greek word "tasso" the KJV uses "ordained". It really means to set in order, set in place, to determine. So verse 48 is saying as many Gentiles that were set in order by what they heard Paul preach about eternal life believed. I see the KJV had a Calvinistic bias in how it 'translated" verse 48.

So Luke is showing the contrast when God sent his word to the Jews who set/determined themselves to reject it contrasted to the Gentiles who determined/set themselves to hear and receive it. It cannot be argued the Gentiles belief was predetermined by God when the Jews unbelief and rejection of GOd's word was their own choice.

Point being, the context shows that God did NOT ordain the Jews to not receive His word no more than God ordained certain Gentiles to hear and accept His word.

Here are what some with a Calvinistic bias have to say about verse 48, (my emp)


AT Robertson:
As many as were ordained to eternal life (osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiv zwhn aiwnion). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassw, a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word "ordain" is not the best translation here. "Appointed," as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God's side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God's plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away.

 

[Hoffco]

Just want to point out to Calvinists that the "all things" in the verse are all things within God's nature. Sure, God is Sovereign but even His Sovereignty is limited by His own nature. There are some things Calvinists cannot give an explanation, as why/what basis did God use before the world began to unconditionally choose "Joe" and not "Bob", so they simply says "It's God's Sovereignty". Again, just showing God's Sovereignty has limits.

AH, looks like you also MOCK God's LOVE choice of those He is saving.? It was in LOVE God chose us, the elect. "JACOB I LOVED and Esau I hated" That shows the "basis" from which God chose us and/Or hated us men/women. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

I have no clue about Calvanism to be honest (I'll study it more in debt), but all I know is that when "Predestination" is mentioned, animosity rises and whispers of "Oh no, it's Calvanism" fills a room...

I ask the question.... if its only Group based, then who was Judas, and why was he elected to hand Christ over from the foundation of the earth, throughout the old testament you have instances where Individuals were "selected" to fulfill the plan of God and those who were selected to be collateral damage for the plan to be executed. What stops God from still selecting individuals?

God has foreknowledge of what people will do, and foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination. Since God has foreknowledge of what men will choose to, God then can uses men's OWN FREE WILL CHOICES to accomplish His own purpose. SO God foreknew if Judas had the choice, he would choose of his own free will to betray Christ so God used Judas's own choice to accomplish Gods will in Christ dying for man kind. Therefore God does not have to FORCE Judas to betray Christ.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God foreknew that if He sent Christ among those Jews, those Jews of their own free will would choose to crucify Christ. So God used THEIR free will choice to accomplish His determination Christ die for mankind. So God can use His foreknowledge of what those Jews choose to do to accomplish His own will thereby does not have to violate those Jews free will by forcing/causing/preordaining to crucify Christ

Since the Jews of their own free will chose to crucify Christ, Peter could then accuse them that by their own wicked hands they crucified Christ. If God PREORDAINED the Jews against their will to crucify Christ then it was God's wicked hands that crucified Christ and not the Jews for the Jews could only do what God forced/preordained them to do.

 

[SeaBass]

just wanted to point out that there are some things the apostle Paul didn't give an explanation for.
for example why God could show mercy to one man and not another.
so Paul "simply" says God is sovereign, and man is not.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory —
even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

(Romans 9:14-26)

God cannot lie, break promises.

God promised to save those that obey, Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon those that "obey not" 2 Thess 1:8.

These are two promises men can count on God keeping. So salvation has to do with men of their own free will in choosing to obey or disobey God and not some random unconditional choice God supposedly made before the world began against the will of men.

Rom 9 refutes Calvinism. Rom 9 Paul knows God has rejected the Jews as His chosen people and grafted in the Gentiles (Rom 11) so in Rom 9 Pal refutes any arguments the Jews would have that God has cast them off. According to Calvinism, God CANNOT cast off His elect and graft in the UNELECT but that is exactly what God did with the Jews and Gentiles in Romans chapters 9 - 11.

 

[SeaBass]

AH, looks like you also MOCK God's LOVE choice of those He is saving.? It was in LOVE God chose us, the elect. "JACOB I LOVED and Esau I hated" That shows the "basis" from which God chose us and/Or hated us men/women. Love to all, Hoffco

Calvinism makes a mockery of God for God does not desire/preordain some be lost but God's desire is the wicked repent, turn and live, Eze 33:11

 

[Hoffco]

God cannot lie, break promises.

God promised to save those that obey, Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon those that "obey not" 2 Thess 1:8.

These are two promises men can count on God keeping. So salvation has to do with men of their own free will in choosing to obey or disobey God and not some random unconditional choice God supposedly made before the world began against the will of men.

Rom 9 refutes Calvinism. Rom 9 Paul knows God has rejected the Jews as His chosen people and grafted in the Gentiles (Rom 11) so in Rom 9 Pal refutes any arguments the Jews would have that God has cast them off. According to Calvinism, God CANNOT cast off His elect and graft in the UNELECT but that is exactly what God did with the Jews and Gentiles in Romans chapters 9 - 11.

Please ,stop "rationalizing" and just believe what God says. Election is a random, unconditional, LOVE choice of God wanting to show LOVE and damnation is God's unconditional Hate choice, wanting to show HATE. Ron. 9:22-24. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Calvinism makes a mockery of God for God does not desire/preordain some be lost but God's desire is the wicked repent, turn and live, Eze 33:11

Calvinism is an attempt to tell who GOD is: hyper Calvinism, mocks/lacks a full understanding of the TRUE GOD of the Bible, who wants all to be saved But,only, in Love, chooses to save a few; Because God is also wrath and want to show is anger, in damning others. Love Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

Please ,stop "rationalizing" and just believe what God says. Election is a random, unconditional, LOVE choice of God wanting to show LOVE and damnation is God's unconditional Hate choice, wanting to show HATE. Ron. 9:22-24. Love Hoffco

Rationalizing?????????????

It is SCRIPTURAL that God it's impossible for God to lie......not rationalizing.

It is SCRIPTURAL God promised to save those that obey Heb 5:9 and have vengeance on those that obey not, 2 Thess 1:8...not rationalizing.


Election is not random (glad to see a Calvinist finally admit that Calvinism has God acting randomly) for God does not act capriciously Jer 18:8,10.


1 Jn 4:8 "God is love"

 

[Ukorin]

God has foreknowledge of what people will do, and foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination. Since God has foreknowledge of what men will choose to, God then can uses men's OWN FREE WILL CHOICES to accomplish His own purpose. SO God foreknew if Judas had the choice, he would choose of his own free will to betray Christ so God used Judas's own choice to accomplish Gods will in Christ dying for man kind. Therefore God does not have to FORCE Judas to betray Christ.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God foreknew that if He sent Christ among those Jews, those Jews of their own free will would choose to crucify Christ. So God used THEIR free will choice to accomplish His determination Christ die for mankind. So God can use His foreknowledge of what those Jews choose to do to accomplish His own will thereby does not have to violate those Jews free will by forcing/causing/preordaining to crucify Christ

Since the Jews of their own free will chose to crucify Christ, Peter could then accuse them that by their own wicked hands they crucified Christ. If God PREORDAINED the Jews against their will to crucify Christ then it was God's wicked hands that crucified Christ and not the Jews for the Jews could only do what God forced/preordained them to do.

You are confusing "foreknowledge" with "foresight". They are very different, and even more differentiated in the Greek.
You are describing foresight when talking about God knowing the future decisions of men.

Foreknowledge is relational. It's not to do with actions, but to do with having a relationship. This word is the reason that the term unconditional is used when describing election. Because God did not choose based on our works or decisions, but upon AGAPE.

 

[SeaBass]

Calvinism is an attempt to tell who GOD is: hyper Calvinism, mocks/lacks a full understanding of the TRUE GOD of the Bible, who wants all to be saved But,only, in Love, chooses to save a few; Because God is also wrath and want to show is anger, in damning others. Love Hoffco

I would say all Calvinism is hyper-Calvinism.

Does the non-hyper-Calvinism claim man is born totally depraved? If so, Zech 12:1 God forms the spirit within man and if God created a depraved spirit within me and I can doing nothing about it and God does nothing about it and I end up lost, that is no different than hyper-Calvinist's claim God created/chose for certain men to be lost.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have no clue about Calvanism to be honest (I'll study it more in debt), but all I know is that when "Predestination" is mentioned, animosity rises and whispers of "Oh no, it's Calvanism" fills a room...

I ask the question.... if its only Group based, then who was Judas, and why was he elected to hand Christ over from the foundation of the earth, throughout the old testament you have instances where Individuals were "selected" to fulfill the plan of God and those who were selected to be collateral damage for the plan to be executed. What stops God from still selecting individuals?

God being the lofty one who inhabits eternity is not subject unto time and being able to see the future was able to have written what was written before it happened as HE KNEW what choices Judas would make and the path that he would choose to walk....The same is true of all....

God predetermined before the casting down of the world that He would receive ALL who would come to him dia Jesus Christ and ALL who would reject his son will burn........!

 

[Ukorin]

I would say all Calvinism is hyper-Calvinism.

Does the non-hyper-Calvinism claim man is born totally depraved? If so, Zech 12:1 God forms the spirit within man and if God created a depraved spirit within me and I can doing nothing about it and God does nothing about it and I end up lost, that is no different than hyper-Calvinist's claim God created/chose for certain men to be lost.

Spirit is opposed to the flesh.
Why did you assume that spirit is depraved? Depravity is of flesh.

 

[Hoffco]

I would say all Calvinism is hyper-Calvinism.

Does the non-hyper-Calvinism claim man is born totally depraved? If so, Zech 12:1 God forms the spirit within man and if God created a depraved spirit within me and I can doing nothing about it and God does nothing about it and I end up lost, that is no different than hyper-Calvinist's claim God created/chose for certain men to be lost.

LOL. Sorry, you are hyper rational. Your reasoning is irrational . you make nonsense out if rational thoughts, you are fighting the sovereignty of God, and destroying the Bible. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

Spirit is opposed to the flesh.
Why did you assume that spirit is depraved? Depravity is of flesh.

Man's spirit, conscience/mind is what makes choices and the flesh follows those choices.

 

[SeaBass]

LOL. Sorry, you are hyper rational. Your reasoning is irrational . you make nonsense out if rational thoughts, you are fighting the sovereignty of God, and destroying the Bible. Love to all, Hoffco

Do non-hyper-Calvinists claim men are born depraved?

 

[Ukorin]

Man's spirit, conscience/mind is what makes choices and the flesh follows those choices.

Biologists would disagree,
So does the Word.

 

[godtruck]

Human nature is such that if something is easily figured out we discard it as of no value or cheap. I theorize that God gives us glimpses into His one-of-a-kind realm just to keep us in awe through His word. Therefore we deem Him of great value because we will never completely exhaust His dimensions and ways in His word.
But the danger that's occurring here are the one's who anthropomorphize God as having our way of seeing how God "should" or "should not" act. Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.