Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?
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Runningman said:
None of those replies or verses show that the rapture occurs in a pre-great tribulation timeline. Sorry I don’t mean to derail this thread but pre-trib rapture is another bogus false doctrine. That’s my official stance. Please carry on.
I was brought up in a Christian home and was taught in a pre-trib rapture from my youth. But when I was challenged on that view, I was unable to defend or support it from Scripture.
I certainly agree that Scripture is the official stance! But 1 Thess 4 says nothing about Jesus taking the glorified believers to heaven.
What verse shows that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven?
Thanks.
The Saints are not to suffer God's anger. 1 Thessalonians 1 and also chapter 5.
There shall be converts after this because people will be able to be saved because God will continue to call out to them. Revelation 7.[/QUOTE]
None of those replies or verses show that the rapture occurs in a pre-great tribulation timeline. Sorry I don’t mean to derail this thread but pre-trib rapture is another bogus false doctrine. That’s my official stance. Please carry on.
I was brought up in a Christian home and was taught in a pre-trib rapture from my youth. But when I was challenged on that view, I was unable to defend or support it from Scripture.
I certainly agree that Scripture is the official stance! But 1 Thess 4 says nothing about Jesus taking the glorified believers to heaven.
What verse shows that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven?
Thanks.
The Saints are not to suffer God's anger. 1 Thessalonians 1 and also chapter 5.
There shall be converts after this because people will be able to be saved because God will continue to call out to them. Revelation 7.[/QUOTE]
yes, everyone. By that, I mean every saved person.
The confusion comes from misunderstanding what "turn away from the faith" means.
It refers to what a person does, NOT what God will do. Most assume that if one turns away, then God "turns away". Which is wrong.
The clearest statement on eternal security is from Jesus Himself.
John 10:28 - He says "I give them (believers, per John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40) eternal life and they (recipients of eternal life) SHALL NEVER PERISH.
It could not be more clear than that.
Since John 5:24 shows that from the MOMENT a person believes in Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. So John 10:28 applies to EVERYONE who has believed and therefore POSSESSES eternal life.
As I pointed out, to "fall away" or "turn away" is something that man does.
If salvation could be lost (or any other word that describes a person no longer going to heaven), then there WOULD BE verses that show that God will take away, remove, rescind, revoke a number of things, all things that accompany salvation.
1. salvation
2. eternal life
3. indwelling Holy Spirit (only possible in the OT, but not in the NT)
4. justification
5. become a child of God
6. become a new creature
7. born again, regenerated
8. glorification promised
I haven't found any verses that reverse any of these things.
And John 10:28 guarantees that a person who has been given eternal life (when they believed) shall never perish.
I absolutely believe what Jesus said.
The confusion comes from misunderstanding what "turn away from the faith" means.
It refers to what a person does, NOT what God will do. Most assume that if one turns away, then God "turns away". Which is wrong.
The clearest statement on eternal security is from Jesus Himself.
John 10:28 - He says "I give them (believers, per John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40) eternal life and they (recipients of eternal life) SHALL NEVER PERISH.
It could not be more clear than that.
Since John 5:24 shows that from the MOMENT a person believes in Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. So John 10:28 applies to EVERYONE who has believed and therefore POSSESSES eternal life.
As I pointed out, to "fall away" or "turn away" is something that man does.
If salvation could be lost (or any other word that describes a person no longer going to heaven), then there WOULD BE verses that show that God will take away, remove, rescind, revoke a number of things, all things that accompany salvation.
1. salvation
2. eternal life
3. indwelling Holy Spirit (only possible in the OT, but not in the NT)
4. justification
5. become a child of God
6. become a new creature
7. born again, regenerated
8. glorification promised
I haven't found any verses that reverse any of these things.
And John 10:28 guarantees that a person who has been given eternal life (when they believed) shall never perish.
I absolutely believe what Jesus said.
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There is a huge difference between fellowship and relationship, yet it seems many or most do not understand the difference. And today, most people use the word relationship when they really mean fellowship.
When a believer is born again, they are God's child. John 1:12, Gal 3:26
So there is a Parent-child RELATIONSHIP there. Just as the relationship between a parent and child cannot be changed, severed, ended in the human realm, there is no reason to assume it will end in the spiritual realm. In fact, God uses human experiences to communicate His plans. If you are a parent, your child/children are ALWAYS your child/children. You can't change that. And your DNA is found in your child/children. The same is true in our spiritual birth. The believer has God's "DNA" in them; the promised Holy Spirit, and Jesus said "He will be with you forever". That is a permanent promise. Not based on conditions.
Why would any sin result in loss of salvation? Do you not believe that Jesus died for all sins? If not, where is the list of sins that He did not die for?
Your comment reveals that many if not most who believe salvation can be lost must think that Jesus didn't die for their opinion of what they consider the "worst sins". But He died for all sins.
Common claim but no actual evidence for this. What verses do you have that clearly says there are sins that result in loss of salvation?
When a believer is born again, they are God's child. John 1:12, Gal 3:26
So there is a Parent-child RELATIONSHIP there. Just as the relationship between a parent and child cannot be changed, severed, ended in the human realm, there is no reason to assume it will end in the spiritual realm. In fact, God uses human experiences to communicate His plans. If you are a parent, your child/children are ALWAYS your child/children. You can't change that. And your DNA is found in your child/children. The same is true in our spiritual birth. The believer has God's "DNA" in them; the promised Holy Spirit, and Jesus said "He will be with you forever". That is a permanent promise. Not based on conditions.
Why would any sin result in loss of salvation? Do you not believe that Jesus died for all sins? If not, where is the list of sins that He did not die for?
Your comment reveals that many if not most who believe salvation can be lost must think that Jesus didn't die for their opinion of what they consider the "worst sins". But He died for all sins.
Common claim but no actual evidence for this. What verses do you have that clearly says there are sins that result in loss of salvation?
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This is a misread of John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
The "no one" can be rendered "no man" meaning "no person". That would also include YOURSELF, so your "except you" comment is in error. Not even the believer himself is strong enough to remove himself from God's hand.
The "no one" can be rendered "no man" meaning "no person". That would also include YOURSELF, so your "except you" comment is in error. Not even the believer himself is strong enough to remove himself from God's hand.
For sure, Paul himself did not believe in OSAS. He knew it was possible that he could lose salvation:
1 Corinthians 9:27
King James Version
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Corinthians 9:27
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
- None of these do. If any did, they would be in direct contradiction of what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.
Saying this shows that you are either ignorant of what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28 or you don't believe what He said.
I have now given you truth. It is your choice whether to believe it or not.
So true. So, what will it be? Do YOU want the truth? I've given you what Jesus said. You will either believe what He said or you won't.
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t[ying with scriptures as written.QUOTE="JAPOV, post: 4850305"]Now I'm absolutely convinced... How many on this site not only go out of their way to manipulate scripture and deny the power of God's Word, but also sacrifice God given common sense for arrogant self serving will? Now I understand the seducing spirit of delusion and why I shouldn't cast pearls before swine.....[/QUOTE]
Do not expect to modify hardened hearts. (remember, even God does not command that ......because He allows ...free will).
Be resolved to present and support God's word with every opportunity as He intended, to assist the learning and further teaching of His message.
The rewards are great.
Do not expect to modify hardened hearts. (remember, even God does not command that ......because He allows ...free will).
Be resolved to present and support God's word with every opportunity as He intended, to assist the learning and further teaching of His message.
The rewards are great.
This is a thread started by the owner of this site. I'd recommend you read at least the 1st post:
Catholic Heresy (for the record) - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
Catholic Heresy (for the record) - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
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OSAS is not to be.
Otherwise why would God give us;
Unlimited number of times we can receive forgiveness....wouldn't one application work?
why does scripture warn us about backsliding?
Why does scripture warn us that it would be better that we would have never known of God's revealing for us?
why does scripture warn us ....do not allow any man to steal your crowns?
Why does scripture say...maintain (Righteousness) until the end?
Why does scripture intent show God/Christ/Holy spirit cannot reside where sin is present?
Further, the concept is in conflict with God's intent that we prepare ourselves and live a righteous life.
Why does scriptures say...My spirit will not always strive with man...
etc..
Further,
it is an interpretation of scriptures which did not exists prior to the 1960's....which is telling.
Otherwise why would God give us;
Unlimited number of times we can receive forgiveness....wouldn't one application work?
why does scripture warn us about backsliding?
Why does scripture warn us that it would be better that we would have never known of God's revealing for us?
why does scripture warn us ....do not allow any man to steal your crowns?
Why does scripture say...maintain (Righteousness) until the end?
Why does scripture intent show God/Christ/Holy spirit cannot reside where sin is present?
Further, the concept is in conflict with God's intent that we prepare ourselves and live a righteous life.
Why does scriptures say...My spirit will not always strive with man...
etc..
Further,
it is an interpretation of scriptures which did not exists prior to the 1960's....which is telling.
timed out....
So many other Biblical verses that deny OSAS.;
Fall from grace” – Galatians 5:1-4,13
Study scriptures...there are more.
So many other Biblical verses that deny OSAS.;
Fall from grace” – Galatians 5:1-4,13
- “Be led away with error” – 2 Peter 3:17
- “Err from the truth” – James 5:19-20
- “Weak brother may perish” – 1 Corinthians 8:11
- “Fall into condemnation” – James 5:12
- “Be moved away from the hope” – Colossians 1:21-23
- “Deny the Lord who bought them” – 2 Peter 2:1
- “Depart from the living God” – Hebrews 3:12
- “Can be a castaway” – 1 Corinthians 9:27
- “Can become accursed children” – 2 Peter 2:1
Study scriptures...there are more.
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Huh? OSAS does not meet the test of "common sense"? If we go by common sense, then we are bound to have different opinions.
I just prefer to begin and end with the Scriptures: and thus the issue is whether or not Scripture clearly states that once a person is saved (believes) that they will always be saved (believed). So far no one has been able to produce such a Scripture, and hence I have not put OSAS onto the list of doctrines that I hold.
What I do know is this: that the one who is believing in Jesus has eternal life! Amen! Hallelujah!
I just prefer to begin and end with the Scriptures: and thus the issue is whether or not Scripture clearly states that once a person is saved (believes) that they will always be saved (believed). So far no one has been able to produce such a Scripture, and hence I have not put OSAS onto the list of doctrines that I hold.
What I do know is this: that the one who is believing in Jesus has eternal life! Amen! Hallelujah!
you will follow His commandments. QUOTE="Chester, post: 4850610, member: 240273"]Huh? OSAS does not meet the test of "common sense"? If we go by common sense, then we are bound to have different opinions.
I just prefer to begin and end with the Scriptures: and thus the issue is whether or not Scripture clearly states that once a person is saved (believes) that they will always be saved (believed). So far no one has been able to produce such a Scripture, and hence I have not put OSAS onto the list of doctrines that I hold.
What I do know is this: that the one who is believing in Jesus has eternal life! Amen! Hallelujah![/QUOTE]
Because they can't.
If you believe in God you will follow His commandments. God says ...use common sense, don't forget common sense, apply common sense, etc. ( no less than 14 times in scriptures).
What does that mean?
I just prefer to begin and end with the Scriptures: and thus the issue is whether or not Scripture clearly states that once a person is saved (believes) that they will always be saved (believed). So far no one has been able to produce such a Scripture, and hence I have not put OSAS onto the list of doctrines that I hold.
What I do know is this: that the one who is believing in Jesus has eternal life! Amen! Hallelujah![/QUOTE]
Because they can't.
If you believe in God you will follow His commandments. God says ...use common sense, don't forget common sense, apply common sense, etc. ( no less than 14 times in scriptures).
What does that mean?
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