Do You Believe that Once Saved,AllWayS Saved?

[Tombo]

I don't know if anyone else notices it, but Tommy and skinski are fond of copying and pasting what their false teachers taught them. Skinski will post a long string of verses that speak nothing to the question at hand. He has been taught how to view those verses and doesn't see them the way everyone else does.
Really is sad.

Tom

 

[Skinski7]

I don't know if anyone else notices it, but Tommy and skinski are fond of copying and pasting what their false teachers taught them. Skinski will post a long string of verses that speak nothing to the question at hand. He has been taught how to view those verses and doesn't see them the way everyone else does.
Really is sad.

Tom

I hardly ever paste anything. When I paste something it is usually to reference material like early church writings of perhaps material from Martin Luther or John Calvin.

I use a lot of scripture because it often speaks for itself and it is always relevant to the topic. The Bible is clear to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

I have learned what I know from the Bible.

Mike and Chris of Standing the Gap were responsible for giving me a a basic understanding in regards to what the Bible was actually teaching and the origins of the theology that is taught today. I have since done a lot of research and I dig deep into the Bible every day.

When one truly repents and forsakes their old ways God really does open the eyes and then the exciting process of growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ begins.

I have also learned a lot by communicating with an abundance of pastors across all denomination which allowed me to gain insight into how they approach the Bible through their theology.


You ought to actually address directly what I write. Actually address the scriptures I use and show me why I am wrong. Show me how I am twisting the scriptures if I am in fact doing so.

 

[Crossfire]

I don't know if anyone else notices it, but Tommy and skinski are fond of copying and pasting what their false teachers taught them. Skinski will post a long string of verses that speak nothing to the question at hand. He has been taught how to view those verses and doesn't see them the way everyone else does.
Really is sad.

Tom

Apparently, you haven't been a member of this website for very long. The vast majority of those looking to push their specific doctrine often cut & paste a lot of their material from other sources. There was a time several years ago when the majority of posts consisted of cut & paste promoting once saved always saved and proclaiming that if you didn't believe in OSAS then you were not saved at all.

Last year was rough because we had a large number of Amillennials who were dead set on pushing their agenda. They were very rude to anyone who would speak against them and they would make all kinds of false accusations in order to make their opponents look like heretics. They honestly believed that anyone who did not agree with them were in league with the Antichrist. It was a tough time for everyone...

Skinski and Tommy hardly compare to some of the junk that has gone on here in the past.

 

[Tombo]

I hardly ever paste anything. When I paste something it is usually to reference material like early church writings of perhaps material from Martin Luther or John Calvin.

I use a lot of scripture because it often speaks for itself and it is always relevant to the topic. The Bible is clear to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

I have learned what I know from the Bible.

Mike and Chris of Standing the Gap were responsible for giving me a a basic understanding in regards to what the Bible was actually teaching and the origins of the theology that is taught today. I have since done a lot of research and I dig deep into the Bible every day.

When one truly repents and forsakes their old ways God really does open the eyes and then the exciting process of growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ begins.

I have also learned a lot by communicating with an abundance of pastors across all denomination which allowed me to gain insight into how they approach the Bible through their theology.


You ought to actually address directly what I write. Actually address the scriptures I use and show me why I am wrong. Show me how I am twisting the scriptures if I am in fact doing so.

Ok, let me show you a couple of places where you are wrong. I showed you from the gospel of John that only those whom the father draws will come to Christ, yet you say God draws all men to Christ. That is clearly wrong. I know you will quote the verse "God desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." But who are the "all"? I say that according to what our Lord said in John, the "all" must mean all whom God desires to be saved, not all men, otherwise you have Jesus saying something that isn't true when He said "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." You have to look at the verse saying that "God desires all men to be saved" in the light of this verse, then you will see the truth.
You run into the same problem in the book of Romans. There God says that "as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." We know that the first "all" is speaking of all mankind, becasue all men die. But the second "all" cannot (even you must admit) mean that all mankind will be saved, but that only "all" those whom God chose in Christ will be saved.
So, how do you answer these two things I've shared from God's word?
God bless.

Tom

 

[Tommy4Christ]

wow, you need to study more.

Romans 4:1-4

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

The word account is the same word as the word impute. they both mean the same thing!


Romans 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

try studying more my friend!

Thanks for the suggestion, I am in a learning process as you are, but Imputation is a false teaching. we both study the scriptures and you have your conclusions and I have mine, there is only one truth, and taking a few verses out of context will get you in trouble every time.

Here is a good place for you to start, this article should show you who needs to study the scriptures.

But thanks for the suggestion.

all you teach is all false because you buy into a false system of theology, not from the gospel I read!

Check this out please:

http://standingthegap.org/Imputation%20Doc.htm

 

[Tommy4Christ]

*shaking head*

Apparently you are as clueless as your opponents in this debate pertaining to the origins of the righteousness of Christ and how we partake of such righteousness. The righteousness of Christ is the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are made righteous not by our works per say but by abiding walking in His Spirit (presence) which is the escape from temptation mentioned in 1st Cor 10:13

I dont think I am clueless here, read what i wrote, I am simply saying that the righteousness of Christ is not imputed onto us, faith is imputed onto us as righteousness as we obey from the heart, and do right by God!

That is what my article is saying, Jesus isnt our provision, or obeyed for us, we are to obey Him, serve Him, and yes we walk in the spirit and not the flesh.

I dont obey in my flesh but in the spirit, and follow Gods righteous requirements not my own.

No such thing as substitution, moral transfer, or jesus is our provision, He is our example to follow and obey!

 

[Tommy4Christ]

I will copy and paste at will because there are a few here who are hungry for the truth, and at least willing to come outside of thier box, and look beyond what is being taught as truth today, which is a far cry from what I am learning here.

The truth will set you free , and those with an ear to hear will listen, dig deep for the truth, and flee from thier false church system teaching the saved In sin message!

A Saint or an ain't?​

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.​

Either you are one or the other, no such things as a sinning saint! A saint is walking in the present tense with Christ, being obedient, pure in heart and deed, and listening to His voice, then they follow Him on the narrow road. Luke 9-23. A real saint as described in the Bible has crucified his flesh with Christ, Galatians 2-20, once and for all, hence I have been crucified, and thus they now walk in newness of life, 2 Corinthians 5-17. Cleansed and purified of all willful sin, through a real repentance and faith. 2 Corinthians 7-10-11. They must remain diligent and faithful to the truth, obey from the heart, and keep themselves undefiled from the world and its false ways! 1 John 2-15-17.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Thanks for that Tom! hmmmm. got it from this scripture for example';

In Romans 4:11 he said, “And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also”

..but will continue to study the W.O.G like a good berean. God bless <><

This is what I am learning from these passages, hope this helps, keep seeking truth.


Counted As Righteousness!
Faith that is imputed as Righteousness must turn on an Obedient and Upright heart brought to birth through genuine repentance. God CANNOT pronounce anyone Righteous in Christ who has NOT been first made PURE by Faith working by Love. (Acts15:9, Gal5:6) Abraham’s faith was credited to him as Righteousness, Rom4:3, because it contained these WOKRING Principles within.
"You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[ and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. Jame2:22-23 NIV
Thus he became the father of circumcision (heart circumcision!) to ANYONE who would WALK in the STEPS of FAITH as he did. (Rom4:12) His faith sprang from a WHOLEHEARTED Obedience to the Mode of Doctrine that delivered him from sin. This is well beyond the common definition of ‘Trust’ loosely used by the imputed righteousness teachers.
"But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Rom6:16-17
Abraham was not ‘Weak’ in Faith, nor did he waver or doubt through ‘unfaithfulness’. He was FULLY CONVINCED in what God had promised and OBEYED from that foundation. (Rom4:19-21, Heb11:8)
THEREFORE his Faith was Credited (imputed) to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS!! (Rom4:22) God did not have to ‘Pretend’ that he was Righteous because now his heart was Upright and Obedient in Faith.
"After he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise!" Heb6:15
The New Covenant turns the focus of God’s Word INWARD. It’s the heart that needs Fixed! (Matt15:16-20) People can learn to live a better, improved version of life, through applying religious principles, but still MISS the Kingdom. Because it’s the heart that needs CLEANSED by faith, not the intellect convinced that Jesus will pronounce them Righteous if they ‘trust’ Him. It’s a spiritual impossibility to become Holy WITHOUT BEING Holy! The Flesh must be subdued, not Cloaked. This requires WHOLEHEARTED Obedience to Truth and a Faith that WORKS!
"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. James 3:8-9

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks for the suggestion, I am in a learning process as you are, but Imputation is a false teaching. we both study the scriptures and you have your conclusions and I have mine, there is only one truth, and taking a few verses out of context will get you in trouble every time.

Yes, it will get you into trouble. so why do you do it so often?

Here is a good place for you to start, this article should show you who needs to study the scriptures.

But thanks for the suggestion.

Sorry, I don't listen to men, I listen to god. If I need to read what some man has to say to see I need to study, I am seriously lacking the ability to have God talk to me. and am not born of God.

Maybe thats your problem? and why you need to listen to men?

all you teach is all false because you buy into a false system of theology, not from the gospel I read!

Check this out please:

http://standingthegap.org/Imputation%20Doc.htm

Thats because of a few things.

1. You don't know my gospel. You believe I teach a licentious gospel, because that is what you have been taught by your teachers and all the men you listen to.
2. You don't understand what the word "impute" means. thus you see what your told to see and believe it without actually studying it.

Let me help.

Impute means to "charge to ones account"

God could not "charge to my account" any sin before the law, because there was nothing that said you were guilty"

My account against him now, according to law, Is death. That is what is charged against me. If I reject Christ. when it comes to judgment day, God will charge to my account all my sin, and collect the debt I owe him, eternal death

if, However, I receive the gift of God, and become his child, God will do as David said, "blessed is the man to whom God will not impute (charge to ones account" sin. Why? Because if sin is not charged to my account, I will not be required to pay the debt which would come from having sin charged to my account. Why? because I was good? No, Because Christ paid my debt to God.

Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. (things charged to our account, and a debt we owe, Death) And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

then finally there is another form of the word impute. To "credit to ones account"

You see, as Paul said in Romans 4. Abraham trusted God, so God accredited to him "charged to his account" righteousness.

he did not do it because Abraham did all those mighty works.. He said so, if he did, Abraham could be proud of earning his salvation. But no.

Abraham did all those works, proving his faith was not dead (see james)

again, stop listening to men. And study the word of God, you would see how foolish some of the things you say are! Like God can not impute anything. you say it, because you do not understand it

 

[hermanodaniel]

The real question is whether we strive to make our election sure. 2 Peter 1:10
I know many will say but what about our freewill? The truth is that although we have a will (that is a choice) it isn't free (that means it is bound or limited) to do as we please. I can make plans but since I am not God and not Sovereign I can not guarantee that I will be here tomorrow to accomplish what I will. God calls and draws and we submit to his grace and OBEY. We are called and then drawn by the Father because no one can come to God unless He calls and draws us. God said Danny, and drew me and I said here am I. Now for our understanding (and I mean our understanding because we are stuck in time) it seems that we choose whether to say yes or no to God. Let say someone says yes to God (I have!) and the individual is set apart living for God went through his bouts but ultimately was victorious in Christ when that individual hears well done faithful and good servant HE OR SHE WILL TRULY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY DID NOT CHOOSE GOD BUT GOD CHOSE THEM! Now what does that mean??? Well God is God and if we think that we can choose God first we are mistaken because if that were possible God would immediately not be God anymore! How can we choose someone who is eternal and out of time??? When the word says God foreknew us it doesn't mean foreknowledge (knowing what we will choose) but that He actually knew us completely inside and out and how we are going to be. I remembered when I first stumbled upon that verse in Romans "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated" and I ask God why over and over. I prayed for understanding and God led me to a book in the Bible I haven't visited at the time and a short book at that... I was led to Obadiah and when I read Obadiah God showed me the pride Esau harbored in his heart. When the Bible says God knows us it is to an extent that baffles us because we are stuck in time but this is why God is God in the first place. We reap what we sow and we can deceive man but we can't deceive God...This is a profound mystery but nonetheless the truth. However, we should avoid asking who is the elect because to be frank no one knows and thus we must preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and make our election sure by abiding in Christ till the end. Moreover, rest assure that those who want to seek God and inherit eternal life as the scripture states "and everyone who calls upon the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13 are the elect! No one can seek God truthfully from the heart and be disqualified simply because they were not the elect! This is not how the election works! The elect are those who surrendered their life to God and the those who perish are those who refused the Gospel and have trampled the Son of God and insulted the Spirit of Grace not wanting NOTHING to do with God.

God doesn't reject anyone who seeks him. No one is stuck or condemned to hell because God willed it. In fact hell wasn't created for us but for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41. There is a reason and purpose for everything God does and although we cannot understand completely because He is God and we are men we can gain some understanding by rightly dividing the Word of God. God says there are vessels of wrath (Romans 9) but he also stated He doesn't will for anyone to be lost (2 Peter 3:9. Jacob I loved Esau I hated but compare with the book of Obadiah and you find why Esau was hated. Since God is out of time it seems as though God wills those he wants and rejects those he hate but He knows our hearts so his sovereignty and declaration of his glory meets when we accept him or reject him. No one can be against the truth but only for the truth (2 Corinthians 13:8) thus God will be glorified nonetheless whether we offer it willingly or not. Rest assure that no one is rejected if they seek God. We come to God when God calls and draws. We sleep because our bodies are tired, we eat because our bodies get hungry, we respond to someone when they say our name etc. These are all examples of how we acknowledge or recognize a need and respond accordingly. Everyone that comes to God is because God has called them and drawn them and those who reject God have also been called. The fact that God has elects is because who can say yes or no to God before His declaration of glory? No one! Choose God and live and you will find out that God has chosen you because He is God!

 

[blessedfromabove]

Thanks guys for sharing your understandings on the matter of imputed righteousness. I really didn't know how controversial this could be. Sorry that things have deviated from the original topic... but it's very interesting to me. It is good to be be able to discuss our differences and not take offense when doing so... it makes us dig deeper into His word to seek His truth which I am thankful for. Hopefully we can discuss this in a godly way, speaking the truth in love...

2Tim
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

 

[blessedfromabove]

Just have a couple of questions for those who don't believe OSAS.

Like I mentioned in my first post, if you were to live a good and holy life most of your life... and the day you were to pass away you had unrepented of sin in your heart (knowing to do good and not doing it as James says), would that mean you have lost your salvation? Also... what about presumptuous/ hidden sins? The bible says the heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it? Are you then constantly repenting 24 hrs each day of sin?

... so how would you really know that, should your time come suddenly, you were 'right' with God based on your own efforts to walk right with God?

What about new believers who are weak in the faith? How could they stand a chance?

Just interested.

 

[Crossfire]

Just have a couple of questions for those who don't believe OSAS.

Like I mentioned in my first post, if you were to live a good and holy life most of your life... and the day you were to pass away you had unrepented of sin in your heart (knowing to do good and not doing it as James says), would that mean you have lost your salvation? Also... what about presumptuous/ hidden sins? The bible says the heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it? Are you then constantly repenting 24 hrs each day of sin?

... so how would you really know that, should your time come suddenly, you were 'right' with God based on your own efforts to walk right with God?

What about new believers who are weak in the faith? How could they stand a chance?

Just interested.

Both sin and repentance are more than a single act or deed, they are conditions of the heart. God's not going to send you to hell if something you said offended someone and you were not aware of it in order to repent. God looks into your heart to see if you were aware of such offense, would you repent if you knew something you said hurt someone else even though what you said might be right or, would your pride come into to play and refuse to repent because you could care less about hurting someone else even though what you said might be true.

 

[Christ-ian]

Proverbs 14:12 '' There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.''

Proverbs 14:14 '' The Backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, but a good man will be satisfied from above.''

1 John 2:24 ''Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

1 John 2:25 '' And this is the promise that he promised us - eternal life.


If we abide in the Lord each and every day, we will always be saved,

if we do not then we are backsliders

and here is a verse about that :

Hebrews 10:26-27 '' For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.''

God bless

Christ-ian<3

 

[OFM]

great spiritual insights every 1 thanks,i learned alot amen