Do you want the truth? Here is the truth about eschatology

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
U

UnderGrace

Guest

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
No, you are trying to use the walls of Josephus to cast doubt on both John's revelation and Jesus' statement "not one stone" left standing.

Do you think that the "not one stone" temple of Jesus is a future temple?

And how do you figure that John is measuring a temple other than the one that Jesus said "not one stone" that shall not be thrown down?

lol,read all the way to verse 19....
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
We have been living in the new heavens and earth (not a physical place) for 2,000 years.
sort of a let down; i had the picture that it would be better than the old one.
but here we are, all creation in frustration waiting for the sons of God to appear, people dying and sinning and decaying all over, lions eating lambs, no one seeking God, everyone astray chasing after their own ways, vain as always, vain, vain, vain.


and this is heaven, you say?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
The resurrection took place IN THE SPIRIT. It has nothing to do with the physical.
why does Jesus show the disciples His hands and feet and eat fish in front of them to specifically prove that His resurrection is literal & physical, if we - rising with Him - are not physically resurrected?
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
sort of a let down; i had the picture that it would be better than the old one.
but here we are, all creation in frustration waiting for the sons of God to appear, people dying and sinning and decaying all over, lions eating lambs, no one seeking God, everyone astray chasing after their own ways, vain as always, vain, vain, vain.


and this is heaven, you say?
Dying and sinners are still around according to Isaiah:

(Isa 65:17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.)

(Isa 65:20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.)

Looks like the sinners only live to 100.

Maybe the new heavens and earth are not the physical heavens and earth but the Mosaic ones created at the giving of the law after God parted the sea when the Israelites fled Egypt:

(Isa 51:15 But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared— The LORD of hosts is His name.)

(Isa 51:16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”

God never said to Zion you are my people in the Genesis creation account.

There's some meat for your bones :giggle:
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
Why don't you do it for me and explain how it fits in with verse 1 and the questions you haven't answered - lol

I wouldn't think that it does, I would think Rev. 11:1 is in the context of the second woe(Rev.9:13-Rev.11:14) but (Rev. 11:19) is in context with the third woe or the second woe (Rev.12:12) so it depends which one of the woe's 19 is in.

Your used to defending preterism against pre tribbers and you should realize that as an post trib it doesn't change my theology whether it was written before or after ad70 and so your thinking I'm supposed to go in defense mode but I'm not,lol.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
Maybe the new heavens and earth are not the physical heavens and earth but the Mosaic ones created at the giving of the law after God parted the sea when the Israelites fled Egypt:

(Isa 51:15 But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared— The LORD of hosts is His name.)

(Isa 51:16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”

God never said to Zion you are my people in the Genesis creation account.
Isaiah 51 is definitely not talking about a second creation of the heavens and the earth at Sinai. He is saying that He, the Creator of the heavens and the earth ((see v. 13)) has purposed them since before the foundation of the world, and has spoken through and protected them.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
Doesn't Revelation say 7 times it would be fulfilled shortly? Isn't that what Rev 22:6 (one of the seven) say?

i thought it actually says "
quickly" e.g. literally, in the case of 22:6, "en tachei" = "in quickness"
((which could be interpreted as '
soon' but isn't exactly the same meaning))
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
He was slaying the unbelieving Jews as Matt 22:7 and Luke 19:27 say and the kingdom age was beginning.

That's why the last verse of Isaiah, Isaiah 66:24 says, "
And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Those are the bodies of the 1 million unbelieving Jews who died in Jerusalem in 70 AD.
um why does it look like their worm has died and their fires are quenched, from here? why haven't i yet gone, along with all mankind, to look upon their corpses week after week and month after month?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
Jesus told Thomas to put His hand in His side so that Thomas would know that the crucifixion and resurrection had really happened.
why would physical evidence such as this ((and with the eating of a fish in the upper room, in re: Jonah btw)) prove a purely spiritual resurrection?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
No, I didn't say that. Jesus came in the flesh and died in the flesh. The resurrection body is spiritual. It has nothing to do with flesh. He's not walking around in heaven with nail prints in His hands but if you want to believe that go ahead.
we're already spiritual beings, not merely physical - whether spiritually dead or alive, we all that aspect. but He's not scrapping the idea of earth altogether. He's making a new one. with no more sun, and no more sea. which is mysterious! that is speaking of spiritual things, for sure, but He still calls it a new 'earth' - how is it then completely immaterial? how does He wipe away tears?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
What does Jesus mean by "while I was still with you"? Isn't He talking to them right then? He was not "in the flesh" anymore. He had passed into the spirit. Angels have the ability to take on human form but they are not flesh. Neither is Jesus.
then who was crucified?
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
Isaiah 51 is definitely not talking about a second creation of the heavens and the earth at Sinai. He is saying that He, the Creator of the heavens and the earth ((see v. 13)) has purposed them since before the foundation of the world, and has spoken through and protected them.
However one understands v 13 skeley you need to understand how the Jews themselves thought of the temple as heaven and earth in a symbolic manner.

This is from Josephus:

Antiquities, Book. 3, chapter 6 – “ As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars; whose workmanship was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them; each a small matter distant from his fellow. Now the room within those pillars was the Most Holy Place: but the rest of the room was the Tabernacle, this was open for the Priests. However this proportion of the measures of the Tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world.”

– The veils too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because the color is dyed by the blood of the sea shell fish; the blue is fit to signify the air…; And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four (elements)… the breastplate was made to resemble the earth, the girdle represented the ocean, the Sardonxes the sun and moon, the twelve stones the months . . .

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, (17) and allowed two of them to the Priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea: for these are accessible to all. But when he set apart the third division for God, it was because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months.

And when he made the candlestick, of seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets. (18) And as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. And for the veils, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements. For the fine linen was proper to signify the earth; because the flax grows out of the earth.

The purple signified the sea; because that colour is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish. The blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire. Now the vestment of the High Priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky; being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder.

And for the ephod it shewed that God had made the universe of four [elements:] and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are inlightened. He also appointed the breast-plate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth: for that has the very middle place of the world.

And the girdle which encompassed the High Priest round, signified the ocean: for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon: those I mean that were in the nature of buttons on the High Priests shoulders.

And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months; or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiack, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the miter, which was of a blue colour, it seems to me to mean heaven: for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it?

--------------------------------------
Jesus himself equated the passing of the Law given to Moses with the passing of the heaven and earth:

(Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. )

If the "heaven and earth" has not passed then all of the Law is still in effect, which as we know would contradict what is said in Hebrews:

(Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. )

(Heb 9:1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. )

(Heb 9:2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary )

See how the the ordinances of Hebrews aligns with Josephus description of the temple which were ready to vanish away.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
13,546
113
There's no point around Jerusalem, where fleeing men/women/children could access that Roman soldiers could not.
you've got an army and you are supposed to take a city with it.
what are you going to do with your army - move it into the city or spread it out chasing civilians in the mountains?
so the fact that anywhere a person could go, a person could also go, doesn't mean fleeing a city that is about to be invaded is futile or unreasonable.
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
i thought it actually says "quickly" e.g. literally, in the case of 22:6, "en tachei" = "in quickness"
((which could be interpreted as '
soon' but isn't exactly the same meaning))
While it can denote "in quickness" this is how Strongs states the case:

G5035 tachu takh-oo'

neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb);

shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily.