Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Is this a "hope so" kind of faith?


No it's not. Election is always about service. Jesus Christ is The Chosen One in Isa 42:1. Angels are described as "elect" in 1 Tim 5:21. Even the unbeleiver Judas was chosen in John 6:70.

Election transforms no one.

what was Judas chosen for?

John 6:70,71

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Acts 17:26 tells us that God places everyone WHEN and WHERE He wants them. Generally for the purpose of finding Him. So Judas was placed when and where he was in order to find Jesus. He did find Jesus but wasn't interested in truth. He was an opportunist scoundrel. But God knew what Judas would do given the opportunity. That was Judas' service.

What is clear is that EVEN Judas was "chosen" according to John 6:70.

If you disagree, please tell me what you think Judas was chosen for. Thanks.

 

[CS1]

No I dont, election is of grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If its of grace, then its no more of works or conditions. Thats enough biblical support !

yes, you do, IF you want others to agree with you. FYI can you show me where Grace and Election are mentioned together in the word of God?

If it is unconditional Grace then it can't be an unconditional election. Remember, the Elect means as you are presenting it

DID not Need Grace because the Elect did not need it They were selected unconditionally therefore Grace is not needed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The bible declares "God will judge with equity" equity = perfect fairness.
The bible declares " Whom He foreknew He also predestined, elected etc ... to be conformed to the image of His Son"

No, Romans 8 does NOT say anyone was elected to be conformed. And no where else either.

We should stick with what Scripture DOES say. Every verse that gives a purpose for election is ALWAYS service.

1 Cor 1:27,28, Eph 1:4 and many more.

We are chosen [elected] in Christ before all worlds began to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace

Keep going in the verse to see the PURPOSE of that election; to be holy and blameless.

This isn't salvation but service.

How do you explain the fact that Christ is the Chosen (Elect) One?

 

[Evmur]

I don't understand what you are saying here Evmur. It's probably my understanding. Could elaborate a bit further, thanks.

Simply that the sheep and goats is not a simple divide between the church and sinners, therefore there is a wider mercy, it is not a unique belief but people seem to find it justified by scripture, I show by scripture that the sheep are not the church.

The meek shall inherit the earth.

 

[Evmur]

No, Romans 8 does NOT say anyone was elected to be conformed. And no where else either.

We should stick with what Scripture DOES say. Every verse that gives a purpose for election is ALWAYS service.

1 Cor 1:27,28, Eph 1:4 and many more.


Keep going in the verse to see the PURPOSE of that election; to be holy and blameless.

This isn't salvation but service.

How do you explain the fact that Christ is the Chosen (Elect) One?

I don't think you understand what scripture says, you seem to have a kind of spiritual dyslexia

 

[phil36]

FreeGrace2 said:
Is this a "hope so" kind of faith?


No it's not. Election is always about service. Jesus Christ is The Chosen One in Isa 42:1. Angels are described as "elect" in 1 Tim 5:21. Even the unbeleiver Judas was chosen in John 6:70.

Election transforms no one.

John 6:70,71

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Acts 17:26 tells us that God places everyone WHEN and WHERE He wants them. Generally for the purpose of finding Him. So Judas was placed when and where he was in order to find Jesus. He did find Jesus but wasn't interested in truth. He was an opportunist scoundrel. But God knew what Judas would do given the opportunity. That was Judas' service.

What is clear is that EVEN Judas was "chosen" according to John 6:70.

If you disagree, please tell me what you think Judas was chosen for. Thanks.

I'm not disagreeing that Judas was chosen, I am asking what was Judas chosen for? Are you saying Judas was chosen to be a traitor... as scripture tells us he wasn't a believer as Jesus referred to him as a devil.


So you could say in your language I am asking what was Judas' chosen service?

 

[CS1]

I'm not disagreeing that Judas was chosen, I am asking what was Judas chosen for? Are you saying Judas was chosen to be a traitor... as scripture tells us he wasn't a believer as Jesus referred to him as a devil.


So you could say in your language I am asking what was Judas' chosen service?

the context of the disciples changed after the death and resurrection of the Lord

 

[phil36]

Simply that the sheep and goats is not a simple divide between the church and sinners, therefore there is a wider mercy, it is not a unique belief but people seem to find it justified by scripture, I show by scripture that the sheep are not the church.

The meek shall inherit the earth.

The Judge of all the world will do what is right, What is right is not subjective. People "oh God is holy, He cannot overlook sin" I say He cannot overlook good deeds either.

And yet scripture tells us that the good works of the unregenerate are not pleasing to God..?

And the statement bnelow is found nowwhere in scripture.

And since the sheep receive an inheritance based upon works and not grace though faith. there is no way ...

This is not the Gospel Evmur. And I have to disagree, you did show by scripture that the 'sheep' are not the church.

 

[phil36]

the context of the disciples changed after the death and resurrection of the Lord

And yet Judas' treachery was before the Resurrection of the Lord, and as Jesus said he was a devil (not my words and before the resurrection)

 

[CS1]

And yet scripture tells us that the good works of the unregenerate are not pleasing to God..?

And the statement bnelow is found nowwhere in scripture.



This is not the Gospel Evmur. And I have to disagree, you did show by scripture that the 'sheep' are not the church.

it is not that good works are unpleasing to God the Bible doesn't say that.

IT is the attempt to justify yourself BY them that is worthless to do. Because the works we do now for the Lord Will be judged

 

[Evmur]

And yet scripture tells us that the good works of the unregenerate are not pleasing to God..?

And the statement bnelow is found nowwhere in scripture.



This is not the Gospel Evmur. And I have to disagree, you did show by scripture that the 'sheep' are not the church.

The scripture says good works done to obtain righteousness thereby is displeasing to God, especially when done to appease Him to overlook sin.

Paul teaches that when those who know not the law do what the law requires they show that God's law is written on their hearts such will be judged according to their consciences either to excuse them or accuse them on the day when Christ judges.

What I say is in line with scripture,

The sheep were rewarded because when they saw the Lord hungry they fed Him, clothed Him, visited Him when He was in hospital or in prison. These were good works.

The statement " inasmuch as ye did it unto one of the least of these My brethren ye did it unto Me" doesn't make sense if they themselves were the brethren.

 

[CS1]

And yet Judas' treachery was before the Resurrection of the Lord, and as Jesus said he was a devil (not my words and before the resurrection)

Do you think Jesus did not try to reach Judas up until the devil enter him? IF Judas would have not done what he did do you think Jesus would not still have been crucified? Someone else would have taken the 30 pieces of silver to betray Him for prophecy to be fulfilled?

what was the difference between denying Jesus three times, and betraying HIM? Suicide.

 

[phil36]

it is not that good works are unpleasing to God the Bible doesn't say that.

IT is the attempt to justify yourself BY them that is worthless to do. Because the works we do now for the Lord Will be judged

And that is why they are displeasing. Showing kindness is a good thing, saving someones life is a good thing, but in the final analysis, none of these will please God at the judgement.

Unfortunatley Evmur, is stating that man justifying himself in goodworks will be saved.

 

[Evmur]

it is not that good works are unpleasing to God the Bible doesn't say that.

IT is the attempt to justify yourself BY them that is worthless to do. Because the works we do now for the Lord Will be judged

you said that so much better than I did

 

[Evmur]

And that is why they are displeasing. Showing kindness is a good thing, saving someones life is a good thing, but in the final analysis, none of these will please God at the judgement.

Unfortunatley Evmur, is stating that man justifying himself in goodworks will be saved.

Can you simply run through Christ's judgement on the sheep for me ... mebbe I missed something

 

[brightfame52]

yes, you do, IF you want others to agree with you. FYI can you show me where Grace and Election are mentioned together in the word of God?

If it is unconditional Grace then it can't be an unconditional election. Remember, the Elect means as you are presenting it

DID not Need Grace because the Elect did not need it They were selected unconditionally therefore Grace is not needed.

Election is of grace, not of works, thats unconditional !

 

[phil36]

Do you think Jesus did not try to reach Judas up until the devil enter him? IF Judas would have not done what he did do you think Jesus would not still have been crucified? Someone else would have taken the 30 pieces of silver to betray Him for prophecy to be fulfilled?

what was the difference between denying Jesus three times, and betraying HIM? Suicide.

Judas like all men had to decide in fact Choose whether or not to turn to God, but Judas liked His sin more.

Do you not think Judas was already in God's redemptive plan? If you say no then you have a God who is no in control but has to wait and see what sovereign man does.

Ahh, Peter never was lost but he actually exclaimed.. Truly you are the son of God. Judas on the other hand as Jesus said was a devil.

I will remind you of what Jesus says:

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. -John 6:37

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. - John 6:39

 

[justpassinthrough]

Hi Justpassingthrough. The text itself tells us who is exlcuded.

It's those who don't believe, those who are already condemened.

"that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (v16b).

"but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son" (v18b).

God desires that unsaved people of the world believe…

God so loves the world…

God desires the world to be saved…

Jesus Christ is the payment for sin for the world…



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16-17




My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world

JPT

 

[phil36]

God desires that unsaved people of the world believe…

God so loves the world…

God desires the world to be saved…

Jesus Christ is the payment for sin for the world…



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16-17




My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world

JPT

Hi JPT,

I'll refer you back to my post #240. Thanks for your input.

 

[justpassinthrough]

What does that have to do with unconditional election ?

The elect is a reference to the Jews and has nothing to do with some fantasy of guaranteed salvation.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10