Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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VARob

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rogerg said:
Can't happen:
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Does happen. It happened to you. It happened to every saved person.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
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This verse is misunderstood by Calvinists and overblown.

"Natural" is psuchikos, and it means soul-oriented or worldly minded. Soul-oriented or worldly minded people aren't interested in God. But they can change, they can start asking some of the deep questions, like "why am I here," or "where did we come from"? They can stop being soul-oriented and choose to seek God.

[Jhn 6:65-66 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
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God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (be saved). (Eze 33:11). God works in EVERYONE, tugging on their heart, so-to speak, wanting them to believe. But He gave all His created beings free will and does not over-step it. IOW, He respects their decision. God wants people who want Him. Forced love (the "I" in TULIP) is not love at all.

Jope this helps.
 
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rogerg

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VARob said:
Does happen. It happened to you. It happened to every saved person.
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Not of themselves. Faith only comes as a fruit of the Spirit when born-again. Born-again first, faith second.

VARob said:
"Natural" is psuchikos, and it means soul-oriented or worldly minded. Soul-oriented or worldly minded people aren't interested in God.
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[Rom 8:7-8 KJV]
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

That includes everyone who is not born-again by God. Born-again by God first, renewed mind from that.
Respectfully, I don't think you've read the verse closely enough. It tells us that while unsaved,
it is impossible for natural man to know the things of the Spirit for it to be possible to do what you've said.

VARob said:
God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (be saved). (Eze 33:11). God works in EVERYONE, tugging on their heart, so-to speak, wanting them to believe. But He gave all His created beings free will and does not over-step it. IOW, He respects their decision. God wants people who want Him. Forced love (the "I" in TULIP) is not love at all.
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The "all" of 1 Tim 2:4 is defined by the "all" of the John 6:37. That "all" does not include everyone. Otherwise, Jesus was wrong.

[Jhn 6:36-37 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 
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brightfame52

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Cameron143 said:
God doesn't have to harden the natural man. He will, by his fallen nature, fit himself for destruction.
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Yes God does harden the natural man, cant you read friend ? Ex 4:21


And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
 
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brightfame52

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John146 said:
Ever read the book of Jonah? Most Calvinists dislike this story and change the simple reading of God's word to fit their narrative.
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Im good. Im not sure about you, you are being resistant to the Truth
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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brightfame52 said:
Yes God does harden the natural man, cant you read friend ? Ex 4:21


And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
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Sure He hardens some. He gives others up according to Romans 1. But the natural man fits himself for destruction merely by living separated from God.
 
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John146

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brightfame52 said:
Im good. Im not sure about you, you are being resistant to the Truth
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When faced with the word, they believed. God did not do what he said he would do to them.

Jonah 3:
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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John146 said:
Ever read the book of Jonah? Most Calvinists dislike this story and change the simple reading of God's word to fit their narrative.
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Faith still came by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
It was still God also who began the process. They did not seek out God.
 
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John146

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Cameron143 said:
Faith still came by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
It was still God also who began the process. They did not seek out God.
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Of course they weren’t seeking God, they were wicked. God was going to destroy them in forty days for being wicked.
 
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John146

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Cameron143 said:
Right. Wicked people don't seek God...there is none that seek after God.
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God changed his mind about them based upon their response to his word. They were not some chosen elect from the foundation of the world.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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John146 said:
God changed his mind about them based upon their response to his word. They were not some chosen elect from the foundation of the world.
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God sent Jonah because His plan was to save them. Otherwise, He could have just destroyed them.
 
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John146

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Cameron143 said:
God sent Jonah because His plan was to save them. Otherwise, He could have just destroyed them.
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Verse please…

God had every intention to destroy Nineveh. But he didn’t. He changed his mind. That’s Gods mercy on display. They repented, so God repented.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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John146 said:
Verse please…

God had every intention to destroy Nineveh. But he didn’t. He changed his mind. That’s Gods mercy on display. They repented, so God repented.
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God could have destroyed them and not sent Jonah. The only reason God sent Jonah was so that they would hear His word and believe.
That's why Jonah didn't want to go. He knew God was merciful.
To suggest God changed His mind means God is neither sovereign or omniscient.
 
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John146

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Cameron143 said:
God could have destroyed them and not sent Jonah. The only reason God sent Jonah was so that they would hear His word and believe.
That's why Jonah didn't want to go. He knew God was merciful.
To suggest God changed His mind means God is neither sovereign or omniscient.
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I’m not into man made ideas. I try my best to allow scripture to define God. He said he was going to destroy them in forty days. He did not destroy them in forty days.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
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VARob

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John146 said:
Verse please…

God had every intention to destroy Nineveh. But he didn’t. He changed his mind. That’s Gods mercy on display. They repented, so God repented.
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That is anathema to most Christians. They just can't accept it.
 
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VARob

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Cameron143 said:
To suggest God changed His mind means God is neither sovereign or omniscient.
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Gen 6:
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
 
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John146

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VARob said:
That is anathema to most Christians. They just can't accept it.
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That’s why I stated Calvinists hate the simple reading of Jonah. They must change it because it goes directly against their man made theology.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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John146 said:
I’m not into man made ideas. I try my best to allow scripture to define God. He said he was going to destroy them in forty days. He did not destroy them in forty days.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
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Look at what you wrote. Did God need to repent? Was God really going to do evil?

A literal translation of the text assigns evil to God. Do you believe that?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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John146 said:
That’s why I stated Calvinists hate the simple reading of Jonah. They must change it because it goes directly against their man made theology.
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I'm not a Calvinist. I'm a disciple of Christ.
 
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