Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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If you were predestined for something then you HAD to be chosen.
You can't be predestined and NOT chosen.
If you were chosen, then you were elected.
The SAME exact logic applies to Salvation. Elected = Salvation + good works. You CANNOT un-tether any one of these from the other two, unless you like to be in error.
And then, you can take chosen and predestined and put it in the spot of elected in the above equation. It works, each time, every time.
You can't be predestined and NOT chosen.
If you were chosen, then you were elected.
The SAME exact logic applies to Salvation. Elected = Salvation + good works. You CANNOT un-tether any one of these from the other two, unless you like to be in error.
And then, you can take chosen and predestined and put it in the spot of elected in the above equation. It works, each time, every time.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please include verses that support all your opinions.
Yes, and what verses you give don't support or say what you claim.
Please include verses that support all your opinions.
Yes, and what verses you give don't support or say what you claim.
FreeGrace2 said:
Such teaching is mere puppetry or robotics. Both are rejected.
God created man with a conscience with which to make choices between good and bad. God is good and He has already revealed Himself, His existence and divine power and attributes through creation so that man is without excuse, so says Romans 1:19-21.
Why don't Calvinists believe what Paul wrote?
Your "default" position is faulty.
Such teaching is mere puppetry or robotics. Both are rejected.
God created man with a conscience with which to make choices between good and bad. God is good and He has already revealed Himself, His existence and divine power and attributes through creation so that man is without excuse, so says Romans 1:19-21.
Why don't Calvinists believe what Paul wrote?
Your "default" position is faulty.
FreeGrace2 said:
Seriously? I have already proven from Eph 1 that the "us" in v.4 refers to the "us who believe" in v.19. So using 1:4 to "prove" your claim about election being to salvation has already been shot down.
v.4 is about the FACT that "us who believe" have been chosen...to be holy and blameless. Which is also what "us who believe" have been called to.
Show me a verse that SAYS election is to or for salvation. But you can't. There aren't any.
Every "election" verse that mentions a purpose shows that it is for service.
Please show me where I even came close to "self-election". It is God who elects, as everyone knows.
He elects for service, not salvation.
I never tried. How silly.
Of course.
OK, now, what is your point here?
We're talking about election. What verse clearly states that election is to salvation.
Seriously? I have already proven from Eph 1 that the "us" in v.4 refers to the "us who believe" in v.19. So using 1:4 to "prove" your claim about election being to salvation has already been shot down.
v.4 is about the FACT that "us who believe" have been chosen...to be holy and blameless. Which is also what "us who believe" have been called to.
Show me a verse that SAYS election is to or for salvation. But you can't. There aren't any.
Every "election" verse that mentions a purpose shows that it is for service.
Please show me where I even came close to "self-election". It is God who elects, as everyone knows.
He elects for service, not salvation.
I never tried. How silly.
Of course.
OK, now, what is your point here?
We're talking about election. What verse clearly states that election is to salvation.
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Ezekiel 36:22-27
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
The peril of denying election !
When men deny Sovereign Particular, and unconditional election, which the bible clearly teaches, we deny God, or attempt to deny Him His absolute right to rule and govern His World, we deny that His Divine Purpose and Will is Supreme which the bible also teaches. Dan 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
This denial of election tends to rob God of His Supremacy of authority or rule as He deems fit ! Matt 20:15
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
When men deny Sovereign Particular, and unconditional election, which the bible clearly teaches, we deny God, or attempt to deny Him His absolute right to rule and govern His World, we deny that His Divine Purpose and Will is Supreme which the bible also teaches. Dan 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
This denial of election tends to rob God of His Supremacy of authority or rule as He deems fit ! Matt 20:15
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Nothing about service here.....just God's unconditional choice/appointment/election to be SAVED to eternal life.
2 Tim 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of the elect, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
2 Thes 2:13
But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.
Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
1 Tim 5:9
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Tim 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of the elect, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
2 Thes 2:13
But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.
Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
1 Tim 5:9
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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That can be debated.[/QUOTE]
Being debated is a fur piece from being refuted.
Again, the verses you quote don't say what you think or want them to say.
The verses I provide actually DO say what I believe. And what they say refutes what you believe.
You may disagree, but truth can't be refuted. Your claims are refuted from Scripture.
Being debated is a fur piece from being refuted.
Again, the verses you quote don't say what you think or want them to say.
The verses I provide actually DO say what I believe. And what they say refutes what you believe.
You may disagree, but truth can't be refuted. Your claims are refuted from Scripture.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
Where is the statement that God chooses unconditionally anyone for salvation? It's NOT in this passage.
See again? You provide verses that DO NOT support your claims.
What is the context for this passage? God is explaining to Israelites WHY God chose them for service. Yet, as v.22 and 23 clearly state, they PROFANED God's name by their actions. Instead of service, they went AGAINST God's will for them.
v.24 is a promise about what God is going to give them, which is NOT salvation, but their own land.
v.25-27 deals with what God does to those who trust in Him. He regenerates them.
But Calvinists always misread this by thinking that God regenerates in order for people to believe.
But Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both salvation and regeneration are THROUGH FAITH. So faith precedes both of them.
Those who have open eyes see this.
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
Where is the statement that God chooses unconditionally anyone for salvation? It's NOT in this passage.
See again? You provide verses that DO NOT support your claims.
What is the context for this passage? God is explaining to Israelites WHY God chose them for service. Yet, as v.22 and 23 clearly state, they PROFANED God's name by their actions. Instead of service, they went AGAINST God's will for them.
v.24 is a promise about what God is going to give them, which is NOT salvation, but their own land.
v.25-27 deals with what God does to those who trust in Him. He regenerates them.
But Calvinists always misread this by thinking that God regenerates in order for people to believe.
But Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both salvation and regeneration are THROUGH FAITH. So faith precedes both of them.
Those who have open eyes see this.
FreeGrace2 said:
Believers are predestined to be "LIKE CHRIST". Rom 8.
What did you have in mind?
Of course, but so what? That doesn't mean that election is to salvation. Election in Eph 1:4 is of BELIEVERS, who are already saved.
You STILL have not shown from Scripture that election is to salvation.
Oh, I see. You're going to play the "ignorance card". Some things are just too difficult to explain. Yeah, right.
Look, salvation is not complicated. Christ died for everyone, and paid the sin debt in full. That allows the justice of God to be satisfied or propitiated (1 Jn 2:2) so that those who believe in Christ for salvation are given the gift of eternal life.
Unbelievers CAN understand that, even though not believing it.
Do you understand evolution? Now, do you believe it?
See how easy this is?
Believers are predestined to be "LIKE CHRIST". Rom 8.
What did you have in mind?
Of course, but so what? That doesn't mean that election is to salvation. Election in Eph 1:4 is of BELIEVERS, who are already saved.
You STILL have not shown from Scripture that election is to salvation.
Oh, I see. You're going to play the "ignorance card". Some things are just too difficult to explain. Yeah, right.
Look, salvation is not complicated. Christ died for everyone, and paid the sin debt in full. That allows the justice of God to be satisfied or propitiated (1 Jn 2:2) so that those who believe in Christ for salvation are given the gift of eternal life.
Unbelievers CAN understand that, even though not believing it.
Do you understand evolution? Now, do you believe it?
See how easy this is?
FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.
This verse does NOT say that people are elected to salvation.
First, the word "chosen" isn't the Greek word used for election. The word here is "hairomai" while the word for election is "eklegomai".
Second, the verse teaches the METHOD God uses to save people. iow, God chose to save people "by sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth". That is method. That's HOW God chooses to save people.
If you want to know WHO God chooses to save, look no farther than 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
iow, God is pleased to save those who believe. That's His choice of who to save.
There are NO verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is the real foundation of the Calvinist doctrine of election.
First, the word for "appointed" is 'tasso', which comes from military use and means to "line up". The voice has to be determined from context, since the form of the word can be either middle or passive. This is significant because if God is doing the appointing, then the voice would have to be passive, yet the context does NOT say that God is doing it. If middle voice, then that indicates that the Gentiles themselves are doing their own "appointing" or "lining up". And, the context does show that. v.44 says "nearly the whole city" came to hear Paul on the next Sabbath.
This is not election by any stretch of the imagination.
So again, your verses do NOT support election being to salvation.
otoh, I have shown many verses that clearly state that election is for service.
You need to just give up.
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.
This verse does NOT say that people are elected to salvation.
First, the word "chosen" isn't the Greek word used for election. The word here is "hairomai" while the word for election is "eklegomai".
Second, the verse teaches the METHOD God uses to save people. iow, God chose to save people "by sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth". That is method. That's HOW God chooses to save people.
If you want to know WHO God chooses to save, look no farther than 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
iow, God is pleased to save those who believe. That's His choice of who to save.
There are NO verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is the real foundation of the Calvinist doctrine of election.
First, the word for "appointed" is 'tasso', which comes from military use and means to "line up". The voice has to be determined from context, since the form of the word can be either middle or passive. This is significant because if God is doing the appointing, then the voice would have to be passive, yet the context does NOT say that God is doing it. If middle voice, then that indicates that the Gentiles themselves are doing their own "appointing" or "lining up". And, the context does show that. v.44 says "nearly the whole city" came to hear Paul on the next Sabbath.
This is not election by any stretch of the imagination.
So again, your verses do NOT support election being to salvation.
otoh, I have shown many verses that clearly state that election is for service.
You need to just give up.