Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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Pardon me? This, dear friend is indeed Salvation. It cannot possibly be anything else.
***that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love***


Eph 1:4-12
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, ***that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love***, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world. Since no one is before the foundation of the world, his choosing is in Christ. To be in Him means we are already saved, hence his choosing is for service and not salvation. The before foundation refers to none other than Christ himself.
 

cv5

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FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.

How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.

This verse does NOT say that people are elected to salvation.


First, the word "chosen" isn't the Greek word used for election. The word here is "hairomai" while the word for election is "eklegomai".

Second, the verse teaches the METHOD God uses to save people. iow, God chose to save people "by sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth". That is method. That's HOW God chooses to save people.

If you want to know WHO God chooses to save, look no farther than 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

iow, God is pleased to save those who believe. That's His choice of who to save.

There are NO verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is the real foundation of the Calvinist doctrine of election.


First, the word for "appointed" is 'tasso', which comes from military use and means to "line up". The voice has to be determined from context, since the form of the word can be either middle or passive. This is significant because if God is doing the appointing, then the voice would have to be passive, yet the context does NOT say that God is doing it. If middle voice, then that indicates that the Gentiles themselves are doing their own "appointing" or "lining up". And, the context does show that. v.44 says "nearly the whole city" came to hear Paul on the next Sabbath.


This is not election by any stretch of the imagination.

So again, your verses do NOT support election being to salvation.

otoh, I have shown many verses that clearly state that election is for service.

You need to just give up.
Honestly....you are straining a gnat and swallowing a camel. I have just proved that election/choosing/appointing is to salvation. Service follows. I will qualify this axiom by saying that election to salvation is ALWAYS the case....for Christians in this present Church age. There is no other condition. There is no such thing as being elect to service and NOT salvation. Saying otherwise is a figment of your imagination.
 

cv5

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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.

How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.
Honestly....you are straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.
This is the kind of an answer that shows the person can't defend themselves or their theology.

You know there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.

I have just proved that election/choosing/appointing is to salvation. Service follows.
Reading comprehension will prove that election is for service in EVERY verse where a purpose of such election is stated.

Again, NO verses showing that God elects for salvation.

I will qualify this axiom by saying that election to salvation is ALWAYS the case....for Christians in this present Church age.
Yet you still have no verses that say so.

There is no other condition. There is no such thing as being elect to service and NOT salvation. Saying otherwise is a figment of your imagination.
To help in understanding, God has chosen believers, those who are His own children, for service.

This isn't difficult to understand. But NO ONE is elected to salvation, and certainly not unconditionally.

To be saved, one MUST believe in Christ. That is a condition.

So, to claim that people are "unconditionally elected" to salvation is to negate the very words of Scripture and Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said to "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".

That is a condition, quite obviously.

Eph 2:8 states the condition clearly: we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. That is a condition.
 

cv5

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FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.

How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.

This is the kind of an answer that shows the person can't defend themselves or their theology.

You know there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.


Reading comprehension will prove that election is for service in EVERY verse where a purpose of such election is stated.

Again, NO verses showing that God elects for salvation.


Yet you still have no verses that say so.


To help in understanding, God has chosen believers, those who are His own children, for service.

This isn't difficult to understand. But NO ONE is elected to salvation, and certainly not unconditionally.

To be saved, one MUST believe in Christ. That is a condition.

So, to claim that people are "unconditionally elected" to salvation is to negate the very words of Scripture and Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said to "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".

That is a condition, quite obviously.

Eph 2:8 states the condition clearly: we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. That is a condition.
You were on ignore. And now you are on ignore. Bye bye.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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That can be debated.
Being debated is a fur piece from being refuted.

Again, the verses you quote don't say what you think or want them to say.

The verses I provide actually DO say what I believe. And what they say refutes what you believe.

You may disagree, but truth can't be refuted. Your claims are refuted from Scripture.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that point can be debated !
 

brightfame52

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Let's not be so dramatic. No one is denying election. What I am denying is the Calvinist claim that election is to salvation. And you STILL haven't shown any verses that say that it is.
Well if we deny election, we deny Salvation by Grace, and thats not good my friend.
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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Of course the elephant in the room is this.

How can God elect/choose someone for service.. before the person is justified?

To say we are chosen for service is quite true, because its part of being a Christian, But what is forgotten here is that election is not sanctification.

Election is neither Justification or sanctification. Yet both Justification and sanctification proceed from election.

And it is also true that we are chosen in Christ, it would be kind of silly to say otherwise, but we are each individually chosen to be Holy. So the choosing itself, leads to the individual being Holy: "But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do - 1 Peter 1:15." (the individual).

The person elected will be Justified (declared righteous), sanctified and then glorified.

Just as scripture tells us.

The whole purpose of God saving any individual is to transform them into the image of Christ. God chooses to save some people by His saving grace, therefore not giving them what they deserve..Justice! That is grace indeed!

Once God effectual changes the heart of a person, they will respond in love by faith. That's mans dutiful and loving response to God's grace!

So first God elects/chooses to save by His grace and sovereign will, He then justifies, declares those with faith Just.. etc etc.

It's so simple, but the problem is man still see's himself as sovereign. Thankfully, scripture on this point is quite clear:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-30.


Unconditional election just means that God's choice in choosing individuals is not based on any foreseen actions or merit of man.
 

fredoheaven

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Thanks and I would be looking the link
Nothing about service here.....just God's unconditional choice/appointment/election to be SAVED to eternal life.

2 Tim 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of the elect, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

2 Thes 2:13
But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.

Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

1 Tim 5:9
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Tim 2:10

We have to understand this "salvation" by its context. Paul here is referring to the suffering young Timothy had to endure or patiently suffer in the ministry. Physical salvation or deliverance from the evil is coined here not the salvation of his soul and sufferings are part agencies for the salvation now and eternal glory hereafter.

2 Thes 2:13

The same, the salvation being referred to in the context is all about Satans deception.

Acts 13:48

It so happens that the verse had nothing to do with "election' to salvation, rather speaks of God's appointment of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles (v.47). The appointment "ordained" to share the gospel are those who have believed and possessed eternal life. I see that in the verse talks of those who "were" not who will.

1 Timothy 5:9 - refers to salvation before the great tribulation and that Christians will be saved from the coming wrath or judment.
 

Grandpa

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FreeGrace2 said:
Believers are predestined to be "LIKE CHRIST". Rom 8.

What did you have in mind?

Of course, but so what? That doesn't mean that election is to salvation. Election in Eph 1:4 is of BELIEVERS, who are already saved.


You STILL have not shown from Scripture that election is to salvation.


Oh, I see. You're going to play the "ignorance card". Some things are just too difficult to explain. Yeah, right.

Look, salvation is not complicated. Christ died for everyone, and paid the sin debt in full. That allows the justice of God to be satisfied or propitiated (1 Jn 2:2) so that those who believe in Christ for salvation are given the gift of eternal life.

Unbelievers CAN understand that, even though not believing it.

Do you understand evolution? Now, do you believe it?

See how easy this is?
No, its not too difficult to explain.

Its too difficult for you to understand.

I was being nice with my wording.


Christ did not die for everyone. Christ died for the elect.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.

How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.

This is the kind of an answer that shows the person can't defend themselves or their theology.

You know there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
You were on ignore. And now you are on ignore. Bye bye.
Yep, when the going gets tough, many fall by the wayside, knowing they can't handle it.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Let's not be so dramatic. No one is denying election. What I am denying is the Calvinist claim that election is to salvation. And you STILL haven't shown any verses that say that it is.
Well if we deny election, we deny Salvation by Grace, and thats not good my friend.
Please at least read my post before making this kind of error.

I noted that NO ONE is denying election. And denying the Calvinist spin on election does NOT deny salvation by grace.
 

FreeGrace2

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Of course the elephant in the room is this.

How can God elect/choose someone for service.. before the person is justified?
Not an elephant at all. It should be obvious to everyone, because I pointed it out, that the "us" in Eph 1:4 means believers. This is proven by v.19 which says "us who believe". There is no contextual reason to assume/presume that Paul changed what "us" refers to between v.4 and v.19.

To say we are chosen for service is quite true, because its part of being a Christian
It's true because all believers are chosen/elected for service.

But what is forgotten here is that election is not sanctification.
Nope. I haven' forgotten. Election requires spiritual growth, which is sanctification.

Election is neither Justification or sanctification. Yet both Justification and sanctification proceed from election.
No, justification precedes God's election for service.

And it is also true that we are chosen in Christ, it would be kind of silly to say otherwise, but we are each individually chosen to be Holy.
It's a command, of course. btw, we need to understand Eph 1:4. "God chose us (believers) IN CHRIST." The capitalized words are a parenthesis, meaning "who are in Christ". Paul was making clear who he was referring to; those who are in Christ. That would be believers.
 

FreeGrace2

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No, its not too difficult to explain.

Its too difficult for you to understand.
Why don't we just get over this snarky kind of attitude. It doesn't benefit your argument in the least.

I was being nice with my wording.
Well, aren't you just spiffy.

Christ did not die for everyone. Christ died for the elect.
Really? OK, prove that the following verses CANNOT mean everyone, from context.

John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.

John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.

Luke 9:55-56
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village. No mention of the "elect".

Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9

Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly. (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’

Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.

2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men. Everyone

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 All of humanity are sinners!

1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.

1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.

1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.

Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world. Holos: all, all together, every whit, throughout, whole

Rev 22:17 Whosoever wishes, (let him) take the water of life freely. [eternal life is a free gift] and it is potential; in other words, man has free will to believe or reject God’s promise of eternal life through Christ.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

Christ certainly did die for everyone. All these verses make that clear.
 

phil36

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Nope. I haven' forgotten. Election requires spiritual growth, which is sanctification

Hi FreeGrace2,

Can you explain what you mean by 'election requires spiritual growth' ?

Remember, election is God's sovereign choice in calling. Not sanctification..
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Hi FreeGrace2,

Can you explain what you mean by 'election requires spiritual growth' ?

Remember, election is God's sovereign choice in calling. Not sanctification..
Election is tied to service.

Jesus Christ is God's elect...to serve God for a particular purpose.
Israel was God's elect nation...to serve God's purpose to bring the promise seed.
Certain angels are elect...to serve God's purpose.
The Church is elect...to be in service to God.
Tribulation witness will be elect...to serve God's purposes during Jacob's Trouble
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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No, its not too difficult to explain.

Its too difficult for you to understand.

I was being nice with my wording.


Christ did not die for everyone. Christ died for the elect.
Nice wordings but you need to have a verse that Christ died for the elect.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Regarding Judas:

Jesus lovingly held open his arms and heart to Judas right to the bitter end. Judas refused to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior by himself and for his own reasons. Judas went his OWN way to his own place. Just like Cain.

God foreordains no man to damnation. Each man recieves full blame for his own damnation, and God gets full credit of glory for all those who He saves.

Acts 1:25
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Nope. I haven' forgotten. Election requires spiritual growth, which is sanctification
Hi FreeGrace2,

Can you explain what you mean by 'election requires spiritual growth' ?
With pleasure. Since election is God's choice of every believer for service, the believer must grow up spiritually in order to be maximally effective in his service to God.

Think of it this way: how well does a spiritually immature believer serve God?

Remember, election is God's sovereign choice in calling. Not sanctification..
Right.
 

FreeGrace2

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Grandpa said:
No, its not too difficult to explain.

Its too difficult for you to understand.

I was being nice with my wording.
Nice wordings but you need to have a verse that Christ died for the elect.
Usually, the Calvinist will argue that "all" doesn't always mean everyone, and they indiscriminately use that line of thought in EVERY verse that says that Christ died for all.

However, in EVERY one of those verses, there is no context to support the idea of a subgroup of everyone in humanity. But that doesn't seem to slow them down at all.