Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[GRACE_ambassador]

Christ did die for all men and his power to save is for all but every single person is condemned because he believeth not. All those who believeth on Christ, however, are not condemned. The condition of condemning depends on belief or unbelief.

Amen, Precious friend! Both Judgments Of The Body Of CHRIST {believers},
And The Great White Throne Judgment {UNbelievers}, are BOTH Based ON "WORKS,"
NOT sins! (1 Corinthians 3:7-15; Revelation 20:11-15), Correct?

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then PLEASE show me any verse that actually limits who Christ died for. But I know you can't because of the many verses that say He died for everyone.


Rather, it is you who do not understand Scripture, since you haven't quoted any verse that limits the scope of Christ's death and I've shown plenty that say He died for everyone.


I understand perfectly well. You DON'T have any supporting verses for your opinion, and I do.


And just what verse says that?

Rather, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that it is those who "have not believed" that are condemned.

There are NO verses that teach that condemnation is based on Christ not dying for them.

What you believe is unbiblical.

You have failed to make one important point:

Christ suffered punishment only for those who He has saved, the elect foreordained before the foundation of the world.

I would never make such a point because it isn't in the Bible.

Jesus Christ died for everyone. I've shown you that in multiple verses. Yet you choose to not believe them.

Those who choose to reject Christ suffer their own punishment.

Show me a verse. Such an opinion carries no weight.

Maybe you don't believe in limited atonement but there is definitely the concept of Christ's limited punishment presented in Scripture.

Show me then. I've already shown you very clearly worded verses that Christ DID die for everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Justified said:
Calvinist limited atonement has the result of all those not selected being unconditionally condemned. When will you start looking at your false theology of calvinism with an open mind. You have to get out of the echo chamber and trust what the bible says.

I said nothing about agreeing to limited atonement. You assume too much.

He made no assumption. You clearly do not believe that Christ died for everyone. That is obviously a limited atonement. You are just kidding yourself.

All I said was there is no doubt that limited punishment (upon Jesus) is Scripturally accurate.

Duh!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then PLEASE show me any verse that actually limits who Christ died for. But I know you can't because of the many verses that say He died for everyone.

[Jhn 17:1, 9 KJV]
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: ...
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

[Jhn 17:24, 26 KJV]
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. ...
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[1Co 3:6 KJV] 6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

[1Co 1:2 KJV]
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
[1Co 15:3 KJV]
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Nothing here that clearly states that Christ's death was limited to less than everyone.

There are multiple verses that state in very clear words that Jesus died for everyone. I've already given them. Are you late to the party?

 

[fredoheaven]

Amen, Precious friend! Both Judgments Of The Body Of CHRIST {believers},
And The Great White Throne Judgment {UNbelievers}, are BOTH Based ON "WORKS,"
NOT sins! (1 Corinthians 3:7-15; Revelation 20:11-15), Correct?

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

Yes, Precious friend, the BEMA judgment for every believer is based on works for rewarding or loss of rewards and this will happen after the rapture Romans 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 2 Cor. 5:9-10. The Great White Throne for unbelievers is so based on works to determine the degree or level of punishment revealing his righteous judgment to be rendered to every man according to his deeds or works. Romans 2:5-6

 

[fredoheaven]

[Jhn 17:1, 9 KJV]
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: ...
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

[Jhn 17:24, 26 KJV]
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. ...
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

This is understood in the previous passage of John 6:29-33 that he speaks of. These were the people who truly come to know him and were very sure of and believe in Christ. This is his own given by the Father because of their belief.

Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[rogerg]

This is understood in the previous passage of John 6:29-33 that he speaks of. These were the people who truly come to know him and were very sure of and believe in Christ. This is his own given by the Father because of their belief.

Don't think so -- they (we) can only believe IF it is first given by Father. Their belief came about as a result of being given to Him, not the reverse.

Notice below that it is God's work that someone comes to a true belief in Christ.
.
[Jhn 6:29, 37 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. ...
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[phil36]

Contrary, Christ did die for all men and his power to save is for all but every single person is condemned because he believeth not. All those who believeth on Christ, however, are not condemned. The condition of condemning depends on belief or unbelief.

You see you limit the atonement by robbing it of its power. If its mans decision then the atonement has no power. Because the final outcome of saving grace is in the hands of men.

If you actually believe the atonement has the power to save all men, then the logical conclusion of your first sentence is universalism(as you stated above). But then you say it is up to man to decide therefore limiting the atonement to mans decision. you limit its power in second half of the sentence, again robbed of power (limited) by mans choice

You see' using your own words tells us everything we need to know... The atonement is "conditioned" on mans choice.. not God's eternal purpose. Therefore you limit the atonement.


The bible seems pretty clear to me, that redemptive history is part of God's eternal purpose and for His glory, God in His mercy has chosen those whom He will bring to saving faith. The atonement is limited to its extent, that is to the elect and not every single human, and it is powerful to achieve its intended goal, to saves those whom He will!

 

[cv5]

You all might want to listen to this...

Great message from http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/45-72

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

we will do & think things differently depending on

what level we are at, and / or continue to stay at -- in

whatever ways physically /mentally / and spiritually.

stay not forever on milk and/or herbs, and/or meat, but

progress on from milk to herbs to meat..... to meat +

strong meat..... to strong meat + going on to mysteries,

and whatever combinations at any time as is helpful.

Amen, brother. Build your house strong, and fear not. Go wherever the Scriptures take you.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

It is also a book for post-rapture Israel and gentiles.

I don't believe in rapture theology. I believe the symbolism of the 12 tribes are meant for all faithful, gentile and jew. Martyrs first.

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then PLEASE show me any verse that actually limits who Christ died for. But I know you can't because of the many verses that say He died for everyone.


Rather, it is you who do not understand Scripture, since you haven't quoted any verse that limits the scope of Christ's death and I've shown plenty that say He died for everyone.


I understand perfectly well. You DON'T have any supporting verses for your opinion, and I do.


And just what verse says that?

Rather, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that it is those who "have not believed" that are condemned.

There are NO verses that teach that condemnation is based on Christ not dying for them.

What you believe is unbiblical.


Just more opinion from you. Christ's death actually obtains the gift of eternal life for EVERYONE. However, Jesus gives this free gift ONLY to those who trust in Him for it. But apparently you aren't understanding that.


More faulty opinion. God never "tries" to save anyone. He actually saves those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

It appears that you don't believe this. What you seem to believe is that "God was pleased to save those Christ died for".

But where is such a verse? Nowhere in the Bible.


I have repeatedly proven that the Bible DOES say that. That's the ONLY REASON I believe it.

The problem is that you believe what ISN'T in the Bible.

HOW CAN THERE BE CONDEMNED PEOPLE IF CHRIST DIED FOR THEM???????

Condemned of what????

 

[John146]

HOW CAN THERE BE CONDEMNED PEOPLE IF CHRIST DIED FOR THEM???????

Condemned of what????

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[Grandpa]

Contrary, Christ did die for all men and his power to save is for all but every single person is condemned because he believeth not. All those who believeth on Christ, however, are not condemned. The condition of condemning depends on belief or unbelief.

Yes.

So Christ did not die for all men. Otherwise no men would be condemned.

Christ died ONLY FOR BELIEVERS. Those who are not condemned.


John 10:26-28
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Grandpa]

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

All men are saved then? Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[John146]

Yes.

So Christ did not die for all men. Otherwise no men would be condemned.

Christ died ONLY FOR BELIEVERS. Those who are not condemned.


John 10:26-28
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I bought you a gift, I paid the price for the gift...but you have to choose to receive it. The gift is 100% paid for. Some receive the gift, others reject the gift.

 

[rogerg]

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

If I might interject, I believe that "men" and "man" are symbolic terms the Bible uses to represent the elect/born again, and "beasts" the non elect/unsaved:

[1Co 15:32 KJV] 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

 

[cv5]

I don't believe in rapture theology. I believe the symbolism of the 12 tribes are meant for all faithful, gentile and jew. Martyrs first.

Wrong. The Bride aka the Church does not suffer the wrath of the Lamb her Husband. Only Jews and gentiles remain on earth.

 

[cv5]

I don't believe in rapture theology. I believe the symbolism of the 12 tribes are meant for all faithful, gentile and jew. Martyrs first.

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[rayzor]

I don't believe in rapture theology. I believe the symbolism of the 12 tribes are meant for all faithful, gentile and jew. Martyrs first.

most people don't know there are 14 tribes.