Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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rogerg

Well-known member
#801
Jul 13, 2021
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#801
justpassinthrough said:
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. John 3:24
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It is only "by the Spirit" that those who keeps His commandments and obey, can do so.
Obedience is a result of becoming born again which some receive (but only as a gift), and some don't. It is true that for those (through God) who do obey the Gospel of Christ, are able to only because of that.
I think your conclusion was not based upon a full review of the relevant verses of Scripture, but instead, you seem to have
stopped short and superimposed your personal definitions of the words into your conclusion without having probed far enough to find the true definitions the Bible uses.
Please see the following (partial list) to get a better idea of what the keeping, and the obeying of God's commandments means and who it is that causes it.

[1Jo 5:3 KJV]
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[1Pe 1:22 KJV] 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
 
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rogerg

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#802
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#802
FreeGrace2 said:
Grace is free. Absolutely. But since you aren't able to figure that out from my posts, all comprehension problems are with you.
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Ok just for curiosity sake, how do you think someone becomes saved?
 
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Icedaisey

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#803
Jul 19, 2021
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#803
FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you clarify by listing specifically what must be obeyed in order to be saved?

Thanks.

OK. That was "helpful".


OK, now, can you explain what "obey the gospel" means and includes?


Yes, I have the same access to bible study tools as you do and you seem able to find all the "obey" words that are attached to "gospel".

Now, please specifically explain HOW one "obeys the gospel" if you can.


What is your view of "fire" in Scripture? iow, what does it refer to?


There is no list. The question is irrelevant. What has been written on our heart is our conscience. Rom 2:14,15


Do you really think that believers can be ignorant of truth?
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That's the thing. God insures his elect are not ignorant of the truth.
 
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FreeGrace2

Banned
#804
Jan 31, 2021
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#804
rogerg said:
Ok just for curiosity sake, how do you think someone becomes saved?
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Easy. Eph 2:8,9 tells us specifically.

We are saved by GRACE through faith. Do you know what GRACE stands for (means)?

God's Riches At Christ's Expense. Therefore, salvation is FREE to mankind.

That's why the gift of eternal life is described as being free.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does that satisfy your curiosity?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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#805
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you clarify by listing specifically what must be obeyed in order to be saved?

Thanks.
Icedaisey said:
That's the thing. God insures his elect are not ignorant of the truth.
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OK, you are not able to answer my simple question. We both have God's Word in front of us.

Just curious; are you somhow insinuating that I am not one of His elect?

But you seem unwilling to provide specifically what must be obeyed to be saved.

Why is that?

btw, I don't think there is a list.

Kinda like checking the boxes.
 
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Icedaisey

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#807
Jul 19, 2021
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#807
FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you clarify by listing specifically what must be obeyed in order to be saved?

Thanks.

OK, you are not able to answer my simple question. We both have God's Word in front of us.

Just curious; are you somhow insinuating that I am not one of His elect?

But you seem unwilling to provide specifically what must be obeyed to be saved.

Why is that?

btw, I don't think there is a list.

Kinda like checking the boxes.
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Oh, but there are lists. Galatians 5.
(Just an OT observation in this chapter. Verse 2. Listen! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you at all!
Curious, having written that to the church in Galatia, Paul personally circumcized Timothy so not to offend the Jews.)

Only God's Elect are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is he who leads us in all truth. And what is guidance according to God's will? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Does that satisfy your curiosity?
rogerg said:
No
Then what does satisfy your curiosity?

So how is faith acquired? Whose responsibility is it?
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First question: faith isn't "acquired". That ASSUMES that the ability to believe comes outside of oneself. While Calvinists believe that, it cannot be found in the Bible.

Faith as a word is a noun. Believe is a verb. Believing a statement or body of information is trusting in that statement or body of information.

The Bible is God's information to man. Those who believe what God wrote, have "faith", or what God said. iow, they are trusting in what God said.

I guess you could say you "acquire faith" when you pick up a Bible, read it through and believe all you read.

However, the issue is the action of believing. The Bible (which I believe) says that "man believes from the heart". Rom 10:9.

Note, the Bible does NOT SAY that man believes because of God. Or any other such kind of wording.

As to your second question, the responsibility for believing what God has said is man's. Aren't you aware of Romans 1:19-20?

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

There is no excuse for those who are responsible. The Bible is clear.

Since God has revealed Himself through creation clearly, and created mankind with a conscience (Rom 2:14,15) FULL responsibility lies with man. They have no excuse at all.

Do you realize that IF IF IF God chose who will believe that man would HAVE AN EXCUSE? It would be simple: God didn't choose me to believe, as He did others, so it would be unfair to send me to hell when those He did choose to believe are also SINNERS.

I have found that Calvinists cannot understand this very simple issue.
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#810
#810
rogerg said:
No



So how is faith acquired? Whose responsibility is it?
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Each person.

Whoever believes is not condemned

Whoever does not believe is condemned already.

This means we are responsible for chosing to believe or not believe.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#814
#814
rogerg said:
Thank you, eternally gratefull for your reply. I don't agree with it, but I really appreciate that
you were kind enough to post it.
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Why do you disagree with it if I may ask?
 
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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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eternally-gratefull said:
Why do you disagree with it if I may ask?
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You sure can ask. It's kind of complex to answer but let's start with these:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If you notice n the highlighted (above), we can see that one's belief is as a result of Christ's faithfulness to God the Father which
is given as a faith in Christ by the Holy Spirt to those whom He has chosen as a gift. Please observe:

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Otherwise, if it is up to us to achieve it, its would be a work, and we can't be saved by our works:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We can see two things in the above: 1) faith is a work, and 2) that it is God's work to accomplish

These are a lot of other verses which substantiate this doctrine which I would be happy to further discuss with you
if you'd like. If not, that's fine too
 
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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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#816
eternally-gratefull said:
Why do you disagree with it if I may ask?
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And in reading my reply to you above, I can see that I didn't directly answer your question. So the answer
is that we are spiritually blind before becoming saved. Should we believe we can generate faith
on our own would mean by that, that we don't yet have true faith. Further, acquiring faith is a work
and we can't be saved by our works. God has to do it all.

[Eph 1:17 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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rogerg said:
So then it's the individual's responsibility to somehow generate their own faith? Is that your belief? Yes or no?
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I find this kind of thinking very amusing. As if having thoughts requires generation. That is absurd.

When you think a thought, how did you generate that thought? That's basically where you are coming from.

Thoughts come from the mind, the soul, the "heart" of man. Because God created humankind with the ability to THINK.

Maybe that's a bit too difficult for some to accept, but it's true.

And you didn't pay any attention to my explanation of what "faith" is. Basically your question suggests that I wrote the Bible myself.

If I did write a book, it WOULD have been "generated" by me. But if I read a book and believe it, I'm simply trusting what the book says.

So, let me ask you this: when you come to a bridge, do you "generate" trust before you drive over it?

If so, how do you generate trust?

Just curious.
 
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FreeGrace2

Banned
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Jan 31, 2021
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#818
FreeGrace2 said:
Would you be so kind as to at least point out the specific verses where this list is. Thank you.
Icedaisey said:
Would you kindly click the provided link to Galatians and read for yourself?
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Since I read through ALL of the epistles in the NT monthly, and have been doing so for about 2 decades, I can tell you quite confidently that I'm very familiar with Galatians and I have never seen a list of commands that results in salvation, as you have suggested.

So, I will have to take your response as a "no response" to my request.

Why do you make claims when you can't back them up?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#820
#820
rogerg said:
You sure can ask. It's kind of complex to answer but let's start with these:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If you notice n the highlighted (above), we can see that one's belief is as a result of Christ's faithfulness to God the Father which
is given as a faith in Christ by the Holy Spirt to those whom He has chosen as a gift. Please observe:

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Otherwise, if it is up to us to achieve it, its would be a work, and we can't be saved by our works:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We can see two things in the above: 1) faith is a work, and 2) that it is God's work to accomplish

These are a lot of other verses which substantiate this doctrine which I would be happy to further discuss with you
if you'd like. If not, that's fine too
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I just do not see how that jives with John 3.

The one who believes has eternal life

the one who does not believe is dead.

If our choice does not come into the equation. then these words have no meaning.

I agree, it is the work of God we believe. For it is God who draws us. Teaches us, Convicts us, and as roman's 1 says, even through his creation proves to us who he is, and that we are rightly judged for our sin.

I can not take credit for placing my trust in him of my own free will. because I did not do anything but trust God to apply his work and save me.

As Jesus said in John 6. It is the will of the father whoever sees and believed has eternal life.
 
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