Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I completely agree.


You may stop with your "full stop". What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. So, show me ANY verse that actually says that. But save your time. There are NO such verses. What you claim is only your opinion.

Instead, there are verses that tell us clearly the basis for which we are saved, and it isn't Christ's death.

He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?

Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Do you see the connection between these 2 verses that occur together? Jesus was resurrected for our justification AND we are justified THROUGH faith. Not His death.

You're probably thinking of Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

However, v.1 tells us that our faith is IN His blood. So it isn't on the basis of His death, but OUR faith in His death on our behalf.

v.10 - For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?


You're going to have to prove that with Scripture.


Go ahead and show me the verse.


Your claim is empty. You have no evidence that supports your claim. You just don't want to accept the verses that I have quoted.


Nice try. Now, why don't you address "those verses" and show me what they really mean then. If you can.

It's just so easy to make a claim. But it's quite another thing to prove a claim.
You are trying to separate things that can't be separated. They are a whole. Without 1 you cannot have the other.

You can't have reconciliation without Salvation. You can't have Salvation without Reconciliation.


Being Righteous before God means that your sins have been paid for and God no longer counts them against you. Which is the gist of Salvation. You can't have Salvation without Righteousness and you can't have Righteousness without Salvation.


If the Lord Jesus has died for everyones sins then everyone is Righteous. Period.

If everyone is Righteous before God then there can be no condemnation. And we can easily see that contradicts scripture.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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I don't see it as a choice but rather a warning. However, I think only the saved of God can, or will, make the appropriate choices,

How does an unsaved person make the appropriate choice to obey the Gospel
of Jesus Christ?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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The Holy Spirit seals the believer unto the day of redemption. In the meantime, do not grieve Him.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Thank you for presenting that wonderful scripture.


Now could you please answer my question that says —


Where is the phrase “Christ's eternal irrevocable security”, found in the scriptures?






JLB
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Basically in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall NEVER perish. Real clear.

Now you are quoting half of a statement? :rolleyes:


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28


The result of hearing and following (obeying) the Lord Jesus Christ is receiving eternal life.





JPT
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Thank you for presenting that wonderful scripture.


Now could you please answer my question that says —


Where is the phrase “Christ's eternal irrevocable security”, found in the scriptures?






JLB
You can start at John 3, John 4, John 5 and John 6, Then you can go to John 10, and read the last part of Johns 1st epistle.

and again, You can show me where conditional life is found in scripture
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Now you are quoting half of a statement? :rolleyes:


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28


The result of hearing and following (obeying) the Lord Jesus Christ is receiving eternal life.





JPT
Nope

Eternal life is eternal

You don;t give someone ETERNAL anything if it can be lost.

That would be called CONDITIONAL

in John 10, He said my SHEEP HEAR, AND THEY FOLLOW

It did say they may follow or they may hear. it says THEY DO.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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How does an unsaved person make the appropriate choice to obey the Gospel
of Jesus Christ?
I should have answered your question more precisely, When you say obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, i assumed you meant to
become saved through obeying. If that assumption is correct, I should have said the only way for that to happen is if
God has chosen to save them - a choice or a work on the part of an unsaved person does not provide salvation. A person
obeys as a result of salvation
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,137
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I should have answered your question more precisely, When you say obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, i assumed you meant to
become saved through obeying. If that assumption is correct, I should have said the only way for that to happen is if
God has chosen to save them - a choice or a work on the part of an unsaved person does not provide salvation. A person
obeys as a result of salvation
then that person can not be held accountable for their sin.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,883
2,727
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I should have answered your question more precisely, When you say obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, i assumed you meant to
become saved through obeying. If that assumption is correct, I should have said the only way for that to happen is if
God has chosen to save them - a choice or a work on the part of an unsaved person does not provide salvation. A person
obeys as a result of salvation
Please remember God has said HE has the desire to save the whole world that why HE sent Jesus. Is the blood of Jesus only for those who are elected? Did Jesus while we were yet sinners and lost and on our way to hell died for us?

Has not God now who is always SOVEREIGN say HE has chosen the foolishness of preaching the Gospel to save people through obedient Christians? Did not Christ give us the Spirit of reconciliation 2cor 5:18
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
427
107
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what good is that if they have no ability to react on what they know?
Should anyone believe they can become saved because of any work on their part to include obeying, they are under law - no one becomes saved on the basis of law
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Should anyone believe they can become saved because of any work on their part to include obeying, they are under law - no one becomes saved on the basis of law
We are not talking about law my friend

You said they KNOW IT they just have no ability to react.

This makes no sense If they know something what prevents them from reacting?
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
427
107
43
Please remember God has said HE has the desire to save the whole world that why HE sent Jesus. Is the blood of Jesus only for those who are elected? Did Jesus while we were yet sinners and lost and on our way to hell died for us?

Has not God now who is always SOVEREIGN say HE has chosen the foolishness of preaching the Gospel to save people through obedient Christians? Did not Christ give us the Spirit of reconciliation 2cor 5:18
Yes, the blood of Jesus is just for the Elect:

[Jhn 17:9-10 KJV]
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Would a just and righteous judge hold two people who are guilty of the same crime under different standards? Considering both are equal?

If the judge lets one person off just because he said so. And does not let the other person off. The other person has grounds for a retrial. Because the judge holds a different standard.

It would also make him NOT a righteous judge. But a respecter of persons
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,883
2,727
113
Should anyone believe they can become saved because of any work on their part to include obeying, they are under law - no one becomes saved on the basis of law
the idea that obeying God is seen as a work for salvation is unbiblical The Holy Spirit convicts you, and you see your need for Christ, you can surrender and repent or reject Him.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
427
107
43
We are not talking about law my friend

You said they KNOW IT they just have no ability to react.

This makes no sense If they know something what prevents them from reacting?
We are talking about law. When the word "obey" is used, what is to be obeyed? If not the law then what?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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We are talking about law. When the word "obey" is used, what is to be obeyed? If not the law then what?
Then you are trying to drag a conversation into a small pinhole

Obeying the gospel is not the same as obeying the law.

Try to remove law from your vocabulary. Unless the law is specifically in context of a phariseeic gospel of works.