Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Mar 14, 2011
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But no one can truly place their faith in Him unless given to them by the Father:


[Jhn 6:37, 44 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
In this same chapter

Jesus told them to WORK FOR food which endures
To drink and eat
To eat
To believe
To listen and believe

why would we ignore these words? And why would Jesus tell people to do this if they would never be able to do it?
 
Mar 23, 2016
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I know, but an "in" is in the part of the verse that says "by faith in Christ". So, if an "in" was intended, it would be there.
I understand that. And by the same token if an "of" was intended, "of" [Greek ἐκ] "would be there".

You hang your hat on an "of" being in the verse to conclude that the believer has no faith.

However, the verse you use to support your assertion does not contain the vital "of" [Greek ἐκ] which is needed in order to support your conclusion.



 
Mar 23, 2016
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Plus, if we ponder it, we can see the only thing that "faith Christ" could mean is Christ's faith - a faith that is of Christ.

Here is a verse which demonstrates Christ' faith

[Rev 2:13 NKJV]
13 "I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne [is]. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas [was] My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
From Matthew Henry's Commentary (bold mine):

(1.) "Thou holdest fast my name; thou art not ashamed of thy relation to me, but accountest it thine honour that my name is named on thee, that, as the wife bears the name of the husband, so thou art called by my name; this thou holdest fast, as thine honour and privilege."
(2.) "That which has made thee thus faithful is the grace of faith: thou hast not denied the great doctrines of the gospel, nor departed from the Christian faith, and by that means thou hast been kept faithful." Our faith will have a great influence upon our faithfulness. Men who deny the faith of Christ may boast very much of their sincerity, and faithfulness to God and conscience; but it has been seldom known that those who let go the true faith retained their fidelity; usually on that rock on which men make shipwreck of their faith they make shipwreck of a good conscience too. And here our blessed Lord aggrandizes the fidelity of this church from the circumstance of the times, as well as of the place where they lived: they had been stedfast even in those days wherein Antipas his faithful martyr was slain among them. Who this person was, and whether there be anything mysterious in his name, we have no certain account. He was a faithful disciple of Christ, he suffered martyrdom for it, and sealed his faith and fidelity with his blood in the place where Satan dwelt; and though the rest of the believers there knew this, and saw it, yet they were not discouraged nor drawn away from their stedfastness: this is mentioned as an addition to their honour.



 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Jesus told them to WORK FOR food which endures
To drink and eat
To eat
To believe
To listen and believe
To work for food is to read the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit, find His Gospel.

Only those God has chosen can come to correct understanding.
Natural man are the unsaved

[1Co 2:5-6, 12,13-14 KJV]
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: ...
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God., because they are spiritually discerned.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Thank you for presenting that wonderful scripture.


Now could you please answer my question that says —


Where is the phrase “Christ's eternal irrevocable security”, found in the scriptures?






JLB
Eternal security comes from the seal of the Holy Spirit. It's the seal that's placed upon every believer guaranteeing them that the redemption is going to take place. That's the adoption according to Romans 8:23. It cannot be revoked. It's the King's seal.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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To work for food is to read the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit, find His Gospel.

Only those God has chosen can come to correct understanding.
Natural man are the unsaved

[1Co 2:5-6, 12,13-14 KJV]
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: ...
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God., because they are spiritually discerned.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
ok lets revisit your earlier post

You said THEY KNOW or they have been NOTIFIED (meaning they must know)

They won't, but they've been notified.
Now how can they KNOW if as you say here they can NOT KNOW?

john 6 only makes sens if people can not only know. But do what jesus said
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I understand that. And by the same token if an "of" was intended, "of" [Greek ἐκ] "would be there".

You hang your hat on an "of" being in the verse to conclude that the believer has no faith.

However, the verse you use to support your assertion does not contain the vital "of" [Greek ἐκ] which is needed in order to support your conclusion.
I don't agree. I provided several examples (and there are many more available) that clearly demonstrate the use of the
same type of word structure such that they could not be interpreted it as "in"

"faith Christ" can mean only one of two things: faith of Christ or faith in Christ - a faith that was within Christ Himself.
If God intended " in Christ" He would have included it as He did further into the verse. "faith Christ" can only mean faith of Christ. To use "in Christ" in that context would render the verse non-sensical, or it would have to be twisted into something that would in no way represent or resemble the fundamental verse structure. Great liberty would have to be taken with the verse to get it to make sense with "in" there

What do you think is meant by these verses? I think they're quite a bit to "hang my hat on". Please, read them closely.

[Heb 2:17 KJV] 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Christ's faithfulness made reconciliation for sin. This is in compete accord with the use of "of Christ" in Gal 2:16

[Heb 3:2 KJV]
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.

[Heb
10:23 KJV]
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)

[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

One of Christ's names is Faithful and True

[Rev 19:11 KJV]
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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You said THEY KNOW or they have been NOTIFIED (meaning they must know)
No, I don't think being notified is necessarily the same as knowing. For the Elect it is, or will become so. For "natural man", the non-Elect, not

[1Co 2:12 KJV] 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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No, I don't think being notified is necessarily the same as knowing. For the Elect it is, or will become so. For "natural man", the non-Elect, not

[1Co 2:12 KJV] 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
If they do nt understand, they have not been notified

Any company knows that you must make sure people understand and are notified. If they do not. And something happens. The person can not be led accountable. It is the owners responsibility.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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ALL those from the group the Father GAVE Him. Otherwise there would be a contradiction, and contradictions
are not possible in the Bible

[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
you do not subtract what HE said in the whole chapter to make a doctrine He prayed for the Disciples and the world as verses 20-23 state. You cannot call cry contradiction because it doesn't support the position one is trying to make with only one verse in the whole chapter.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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If they do nt understand, they have not been notified

Any company knows that you must make sure people understand and are notified. If they do not. And something happens. The person can not be led accountable. It is the owners responsibility.
Disagree. I think notification makes it known but does not take responsibility for making it understood
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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you do not subtract what HE said in the whole chapter to make a doctrine He prayed for the Disciples and the world as verses 20-23 state. You cannot call cry contradiction because it doesn't support the position one is trying to make with only one verse in the whole chapter.

he remainder of it was within the context and subjective to these

[Jhn 17:2 KJV]

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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But no one can truly place their faith in Him unless given to them by the Father:


[Jhn 6:37, 44 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Faith has been given to every person, we misplace it in the wrong things all the time. Faith is the noun Belief is the action.

we are saved by Grace, not selective, Grace that cannot be earned. The Holy Spirit is calling every day and many reject HIM too.

Is it a waste to say the Holy Spirit is calling those who HE knows will not answer? No. Is it A WASTE to pray for those who are to be saved when God already knows if they will or not? No.
WE are still sent, we are to still pray, we are to still preach, and we are to still live all that while not in the knowing Who God is going to save today. But you are to examine yourself to see IF you are in the faith why? You are to judge yourself why? You are to obey why?

it is simple. One who says they are saved yet will not pray, will not testify, will not obey is not saved.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I understand that. And by the same token if an "of" was intended, "of" [Greek ἐκ] "would be there".
Forgot this one:

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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he remainder of it was within the context and subjective to these

[Jhn 17:2 KJV]

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
and we are not to focus on the "given" we are to focus on the lost as Jesus said, " GO! and preach the Gospel to ONLY MY ELECTED".


excuse me Jesus did not say that, He said go to all the WORLD.
 
Nov 17, 2017
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Hi!
No, I don't think being notified is necessarily the same as knowing. For the Elect it is, or will become so. For "natural man", the non-Elect, not
(Rom 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(Rom 1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(Rom 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The Gentiles were given, "Law of Nature", nature to know ^^^
-------
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The Jews were given the oracles of Yahweh, to know
--------
Mankind was given the ablitiy to know,

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


God Bless!!!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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To work for food is to read the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit, find His Gospel.

Only those God has chosen can come to correct understanding.
Natural man are the unsaved

[1Co 2:5-6, 12,13-14 KJV]
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: ...
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God., because they are spiritually discerned.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
And we are told " your faith" receives spirit which is of God.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,382
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Forgot this one:

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
But as many as have RECIEVED HIM. TO THEM he grace the power to become sons of God

He does not give people power and THEN they believe and are made sons (born again)

They RECIEVE him first.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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he remainder of it was within the context and subjective to these

[Jhn 17:2 KJV]

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Clear, what is given is eternal life to those who believe in him.