Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Have to be GIVEN spiritual hearing. Physical hearing is not what is in view. It is only given to those born again

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't know what you mean by once again?
Don't know what you mean by against His own justice system?

Those were verses from the Bible that I quoted, right? How could they then be against His justice system?

1. The penalty of sin is death (Gods justice sytem)
2. According to you. God makes us alive BEFORE we are saved.
3. That means God removes the penalty of sin, before we are saved

this in effect states God goes against his own justice system. It does not good for God to say the penalty of sin is death. Then to make us alive while still under that penalty.

How is the penalty removed? The legal term is justification.

How are we justified? By grace through faith

 

[rogerg]

That has us born again under the penalty of sin. That Has God going agianst his own justice system

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. We are all sinners - it is only because God is merciful in spite of our sin that
anyone becomes saved. It is not any of our work that causes it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Have to be GIVEN spiritual hearing. Physical hearing is not what is in view. It is only given to those born again

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

This makes no sense

1. You hear THE WORD
2. Your TRUST IN CHRIST

As scripture says,

1. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen
2. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God
3. In the hope of eternal life. Which God, Who can not lie promised before time began.

You need to study the OT passage there God told them to expose them to the truth. so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear

The more you reject the truth. the easier it is to never see That is what it means to harden ones heart

 

[rogerg]

This makes no sense

1. You hear THE WORD
2. Your TRUST IN CHRIST

As scripture says,

1. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen
2. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God
3. In the hope of eternal life. Which God, Who can not lie promised before time began.

You need to study the OT passage there God told them to expose them to the truth. so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear

The more you reject the truth. the easier it is to never see That is what it means to harden ones heart

Disagree. Look at v16. Their eyes and ears were blessed by God so that they could see and hear things spiritual. The
others weren't so blessed, and therefore, were unable to see and hear things spiritual

[Mat 13:13 KJV]
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[Mat 13:14-16 KJV]
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. We are all sinners - it is only because God is merciful in spite of our sin that
anyone becomes saved. It is not any of our work that causes it

Your right, we all are sinners. We are all born death

Until our sin is atoned for and and we are justified. We are still dead in sin.

A person who is given the death penalty is dead. Unless he is declared innocent (justified) He is not alive or freed or saved until that justification takes place

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Disagree. Look at v16. Their eyes and ears were blessed by God so that they could see and hear things spiritual. The
others weren't so blessed, and therefore, were unable to see and hear things spiritual

[Mat 13:13 KJV]
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[Mat 13:14-16 KJV]
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Jesus answered that in John 6

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Once again s in all of John chapter 1 - 6 it is about receiving or believing.

We know from John 6

1. They were looking fr physical food. Not spiritual
2. The were seeking for temporary help not eternal
3. They did not see Jesus as savior but were looking for a king
4. SO jesus spoke to them in parable (bread from heaven, flesh and blood) Because he KNEW they did not believe.

Peter proves this in the fact when Jesus asked if they wanted to go too. Peter said where are we going to go YOU HAVE THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE.

and remember, At this point in time, Peter and the other ten did not understand it realy yet either.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus answered that in John 6

I don't follow you. At some points you appear to be saying they must be drawn, but then that works contrary to the basic
premise I thought you to be trying to establish, so I'm confused. I'm saying that to truly fathom the Gospel it
has to be given to you - that God provides what we need in order to perceive His Gospel, but only to certain people, not everyone. Natural man is unable to fathom it. Look how Paul describes natural man, which remains as a part of us
even after becoming saved, even much more so before becoming saved. So of ourselves, a true understanding is impossible to
obtain.

[Rom 7:18 KJV] 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't follow you. At some points you appear to be saying they must be drawn, but then that works contrary to the basic
premise I thought you to be trying to establish, so I'm confused. I'm saying that to truly fathom the Gospel it
has to be given to you - that God provides what we need in order to perceive His Gospel, but only to certain people, not everyone. Natural man is unable to fathom it. Look how Paul describes natural man, which remains as a part of us
even after becoming saved, even much more so before becoming saved. So of ourselves, a true understanding is impossible to
obtain.

[Rom 7:18 KJV] 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

And I disagree
God gives the ability to all.
You his natural man stuff is ok. But if you look at the word

1 romans one says they have no excuse because they KNOW. They hide the truth in their heart

And the HS is sent to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment

That’s why there is no excuse. At the great white throne no one can say I dis
Not know you did not show
Me. Because God did he allowed them to
Continue in unbelief. He did
Not prevent than from Seeing

 

[CS1]

True statement.

That's why the question is not "do you have faith"? The question is "in what (or more precisely, in Whom) do you place your faith". That is the critical issue.

The more we place our faith in that which is not true, the worse off we are (spiritually speaking).

the context of "Placing our faith" in Christ is never wrong unconditional selection has conditions

 

[Grandpa]

I said:
" What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. So, show me ANY verse that actually says that. But save your time. There are NO such verses. What you claim is only your opinion."

You are just trying to excuse your lack of verses that say what you claim.

Anything can be separated. Just because several things can occur at the same time doesn't mean we can't study each of them separately. Your statement is just an excuse because you don't have any evidence for your claims.


Of course. But what does that prove?


Again, what does that prove? The reason we have righteousnous is through faith. On that basis. Not on the basis of Christ's death.

If the Lord Jesus has died for everyones sins then everyone is Righteous. Period.
No, wrong. Jesus removed the sin debty by paying it for everyone. But the Bible is FULL of verses that clearly state that salvation is on the basis of faith, not Christ's death.

And you don't have any verse that says that salvation is obtained by Christ's death. No, it is obtained on the basis of faith in Christ.


I'm glad you mentioned "condemnation". Let's see what the Bible says about who will be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

In BOTH verses we have the phrase "have NOT believed". That's who will be condemned.

And "have NOT believed" means "have NEVER believed", whether you like it or not.

If you "have not eaten" brussel sprouts, then you "have NEVER eaten" them. Or NEVER EVER.

How is it that you do not understand any of this???

If the Lord Jesus has paid the sin debt of every person then every person is Righteous. Keep Salvation out of it because you don't understand Salvation. Just stick to Righteousness.

Righteousness before God means no sin.

If every person is righteous before God then what can God condemn them of? God doesn't condemn righteous people, right?


Therefore, according to your false philosophy and misunderstanding of scriptures, you have all people being Righteous before God. That just isn't the case.

And because only those who believe in Christ and have come to Him gain this Righteousness by the death and Blood of Christ, then the death and blood of Christ is only for believers. IE, elect.


Its pretty simple. Its only people who don't WANT to understand it that have problems.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How is it that you do not understand any of this???

If the Lord Jesus has paid the sin debt of every person then every person is Righteous. Keep Salvation out of it because you don't understand Salvation. Just stick to Righteousness.

Righteousness before God means no sin.

If every person is righteous before God then what can God condemn them of? God doesn't condemn righteous people, right?


Therefore, according to your false philosophy and misunderstanding of scriptures, you have all people being Righteous before God. That just isn't the case.

And because only those who believe in Christ and have come to Him gain this Righteousness by the death and Blood of Christ, then the death and blood of Christ is only for believers. IE, elect.


Its pretty simple. Its only people who don't WANT to understand it that have problems.

The sin debt is paid

Unbelief is not paid.

God will not force his salvation on you.

There is a reason at the great white throne they are not judged for their sins. but for their works. and found lacking.

He who does not believe in condemed already. They are condemned because of unbelief.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Unsaved people must obey the Gospel in order to become saved.

Can you define "obey the Gospel" in unambiguous terms?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm glad you mentioned "condemnation". Let's see what the Bible says about who will be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

In BOTH verses we have the phrase "have NOT believed". That's who will be condemned.

And "have NOT believed" means "have NEVER believed", whether you like it or not.

If you "have not eaten" brussel sprouts, then you "have NEVER eaten" them. Or NEVER EVER.

How is it that you do not understand any of this???

Rather, how is it that YOU do not understand the clear meaning of "have not believed"?? Explain yourself.

If the Lord Jesus has paid the sin debt of every person then every person is Righteous.

Uh, no. They are reconciled to God through Christ.

Or didn't you know 2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

You probably think, incorrectly, that people go to hell for their sins. iow, they pay their own sin debt. Well, the verse says that God was reconciling the world "in Christ", which means in His work on the cross. And this isn't salvation. Far from it.

In a bilateral reconciliation, both sides must reconcile. This verse tells us that God has "extended His hand" in reconciliation. iow, Christ paid the sin debt, so now, the only way to be delivered, rescued or saved from the lake of fire is to obtain the gift of eternal life through faith in Christ.

Only when a person DOES believe in Christ for salvation do THEY reconcile with God. Then there is full reconciliation.

btw, v.19 says that God was reconciling the world to Himself. Then, in v.20, the very next verse, Paul wrote - We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

That is full reconciliation, where both parties have "extended their hand". God did through Christ's death, and man does when he believes in Christ's death on their behalf.

Keep Salvation out of it because you don't understand Salvation. Just stick to Righteousness.

Righteousness before God means no sin.

Now you're talking justification. And that applies ONLY to believers. Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

If every person is righteous before God then what can God condemn them of?

This is very faulty thinking. Christ's death for everyone for reconciliation does NOT make them righteous.

God doesn't condemn righteous people, right?

I'm glad you mention "condemn". Let's see what the Bible says about who will be condemned.

John 3:18 - 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Same phrase in both verses. It is THOSE who will be condemned. In very clear and unambiguous wording.

Therefore, according to your false philosophy and misunderstanding of scriptures, you have all people being Righteous before God. That just isn't the case.

I have just totally refuted your faulty understanding of my position.

And because only those who believe in Christ and have come to Him gain this Righteousness by the death and Blood of Christ, then the death and blood of Christ is only for believers. IE, elect.

You are partly right and partly wrong. You JUST CLAIMED that it is ONLY those3 who BELIEVE in Christs and "come to Him" obtain this Righteousness. But you are still very wrong to attach it to Christ's death. You already noted how they gain Righteousness, through believing in Him. Which has been my point.

Its pretty simple. Its only people who don't WANT to understand it that have problems.

And that's you, for sure.

You should reconcile yourself to the clear truth of John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. ONLY those who have not believed will be condemned.

it is NOT Christ's death that keeps people from being condemned. It IS believing in Christ that keeps people from being condemned.

If you disagree, you need to PROVE that I'm misreading/misunderstanding those 2 verses.

That will be impossible, since both verses are clearly unambiguous.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of [Greek ἐκ] the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of [Greek ἐκ] God by [Greek ἐπί] faith

In Philippians 3:9, the red-highlighted "of" is not in the text ...

And please note, the verse speaks of the righteousness of God which is bestowed upon the born again one by faith.

 

[John146]

Let me know when you find that scripture.

Adding your opinion to scripture and tagging it with a scripture reference won’t do it.

Not my opinion, but God's word. The believer is sealed unto the day of redemption. It's a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



The redemption is the future adoption. Again, it's guaranteed to the one who first trusted in Christ.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

for the one who gave me a red x

John 3: 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

1. Belief is what gives us eternal life (born again)
2. Unbelief gives us condemnation
3. Those practicing evil do not come to the light, because THEY KNOW THE LIGHT WILL expose them

The tax collector dropped to his knees in faith.

This is exactly what Paul said in romans1. They not only KNOW God, they are judged for the sins they commit.

They have no excuse. Because they KNOW.. they hid it in there hearts. God did not hide it from them. Thats why they do not walk to the light

The tax collector walked to the light as a sinner. And called out for Gods mercy in faith. He went home justified.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

1. We hear the word of truth (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God)
2. We trust the word of truth and Christ
3. We believe (faith)
4 THEN we are sealed by the spirit

Exactly

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

 

[reneweddaybyday]

the context of "Placing our faith" in Christ is never wrong unconditional selection has conditions

 

[rogerg]

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of [Greek ἐκ] the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of [Greek ἐκ] God by [Greek ἐπί] faith

the righteousness is by Christ's faith. He was faithful to the Father