Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

[ForestGreenCook]

The need to limit God and to limit His grace. Many people cannot believe that there are no limits to God's grace. They also do not understand that when God says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, He really meant that. So in essence it is questioning God's grace and mercy as well as the finished work of Christ.

On the other hand the Bible is crystal clear that:

• All men (human beings) are sinners by birth and by choice
• The wages of sin are both physical and eternal death
• No man can atone for his own sins
• God therefore provided Himself a Lamb -- the Lord Jesus Christ
• Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world and paid the penalty in full (UNLIMITED ATONEMENT)
• Christ rose again for the justification of sinners
• God commands all men everywhere to repent
• God also commands all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved
• Not all will obey the Gospel therefore not all will be saved
• Nonetheless, the Church is commanded to preach the Gospel to every creature.

We are told to be like the bold Barean and not take to heart what someone has said about God's word, but to compare it with the written word to see if it be so. Could you give some scripture references with your statements?

 

[garee]

Hearing the word of God, the gospel of salvation. Then one must believe. Then they are sealed by the Holy Spirit. See Ephesians 1.

I would suggest what I would call . . First things first.

If a person does not hear the living word of God working that can cause them to believe Him not seen? Then what? Would it make the faith of God that works in others by which they do believe. . . . without effect? Jesus said it is the work of God working in us that we can believe as he gives us His understanding previous having none. .

How could we believe God not seen unless we experience his first love the hearing of faith ? Galatians 3 says we begin with it (hearing of faith our first love ) it will provide the power to make it to the end. (Philippians 1:6)

David, I believe speaks of the first love spoken of in Revelation 2 that men were called back to as a warning not to depart.from the first love..

The first love.The breaking of the fast. Christians receiving their daily bread. The breakfast of his champions, men of renown like David and Jesus.

Psalm 139:17-19 King James Version (KJV) How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

Psalm 23:2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

 

[Lightskin]

Christ did not pay for sin at all if he died for all sinners and all are not saved. He paid for elect sinners only and that is why God saves them alone. You preach salvation by works.

Scripture please: book, chapter, verse.

 

[Lightskin]

If faith is a condition of salvation, choosing to believe is a work.

So when you go to bed at night and you choose to believe the sun will rise in the morning, you deem that belief to be work?

 

[Dave-L]

Concepts like "all men", "Whole World" require gentiles to think like first-century Jews before they can grasp the meaning. Abraham's promise was for all nations, not just for Israel.

Problems with a universal atonement depict the gospel as law, God as a bully who threatens people with eternal torture unless they "say uncle" by performing whatever work they assume will save them. And it also depicts God as someone who tries to buy people promising eternal pleasure if they submit.

It also cheats God out of his glory in salvation, splitting it between God and those who save themselves by yielding to his demands.

Salvation according to limited atonement instead shows God paying for the sins of those who cannot save themselves. Bringing them to a new life based on that justification. And blessing them with all the benefits Christ purchased especially for the. It is basically an atonement that intrinsically saves all for whom God intended.

 

[garee]

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

How can we hear the unseen discernment as God's interpretation to us. We must be careful on how we hear. It would seem many turn that upside down and make it about the literal historical and do not mix faith the unseen understanding with it. As if the kingdom of God did come by observation and not by spiritual discernment.( faith to faith)

 

[Dave-L]

So when you go to bed at night and you choose to believe the sun will rise in the morning, you deem that belief to be work?

What moron would find choosing this necessary before it would happen?

 

[notuptome]

Limited atonement is a putrifyed doctrine. It renders Jesus unable to save the whosoever will and only saves a select elite group. It has no place in the discipleship of those who are new to the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dave-L]

Scripture please: book, chapter, verse.

He told the Pharisees in John 10 the reason they did not believe is that he did not die for them.

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (KJV 1900)

“As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.” John 10:15–17 (KJV 1900)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:26–29 (KJV 1900)

 

[Runningman]

1 Corinthians 1:18-31

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Everyone believes in some form of limited atonement. To put it simply, most of us Christians tend to believe the standard view of how God saved us.

• Jesus came to die for our sins as our substitute, thus providing a way in which we can be reconciled with God.
• All of us must individually accept this free gift from God.
• Those who accept it are declared righteous and will be in heaven.
• Those who reject the gift will remain unrighteous and will be in hell.

Thus, our view of the atonement is that, it is unlimited in scope but limited by our free choice. Every human can be saved but not everyone will be saved because we still need to exercise faith to accept the gift, thus we rule out the concept of universal salvation.

Those who believe in the concept of limited atonement, however, believes that Jesus only died for a limited group that was chosen by God the Father, before the foundation of the world. This is called the elected group and they believe that only this group of people can respond to the preaching and accept Jesus as their savior.

If you are not part of the elected group, you have no ability to respond to the message. This is known as the concept of total depravity. Seen from this perspective, the idea of limited atonement has the view that atonement is unlimited in the sense that the grace is irresistible to the elect, but limited in its scope as it applies only to the elected group

It all depends on how you interpret the scriptures. Christ died for the atonement of all of those that his Father gave him (John 6:39). The question is; Did his Father give him all mankind? or Did his Father give him all that shall come to him (John 6:37)?

Another question is; Did Jesus give himself as a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance? or Did Jesus give himself as a sacrifice to man, for man's acceptance? Was Jesus successful in securing eternal redemption for all of those that he died for (Isa1:18)? Was not his obedience in redeeming all of those that he died for a finished work (John 19:30)?

If Christ died for the atonement of all mankind, then why do we have scriptures telling us that all mankind will not be in heaven (Matt 25:41)?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I agree but i will also add .. Why not pray for understanding while you are reading scriptures..

I agree that we all should heed Adstar's suggestion.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Calvin or the Catholics? Really? That’s how you see it? That’s hilarious! You do know that Calvin was a Roman Catholic...

Calvin is not the founder of Christ's church, and also not a member of it. Christ's church existed before there was a Roman Catholic church, and was never a part of the RCC.

 

[John146]

Calvin is not the founder of Christ's church, and also not a member of it. Christ's church existed before there was a Roman Catholic church, and was never a part of the RCC.

Agreed, brother.

 

[Dave-L]

Agreed, brother.

But many believe as the Catholics do about free will.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Faith is not a work. Can you show Scripture otherwise?

Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You can not have the fruit before you have the Spirit, and you cannot have the Spirit until God gives you spiritual birth (born again). (Gal 5)

 

[John146]

But many believe as the Catholics do about free will.

I know of any Catholics that believe in free will of the gospel, but infant baptism and works.

 

[Dave-L]

I know of any Catholics that believe in free will of the gospel, but infant baptism and works.

Free will was condemned as heresy in 431. But you and they base your entire scheme on it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nowhere found in Scripture. Your use of the term “self righteous” is ignorant. One who hears the gospel, believes the gospel and is saved is not self righteous, on the contrary. I believe the gospel because I totally trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, no other way.

You believe the gospel because you have been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and you cannot understand spiritual things before you are born again of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14).

 

[garee]

Limited atonement is a putrifyed doctrine. It renders Jesus unable to save the whosoever will and only saves a select elite group. It has no place in the discipleship of those who are new to the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It renders Jesus unable to save the whosoever the father willed. A select, elected group of sinners. . dead in their trespasses and sins, without a living eternal Hope or living God .

Job 23 informs us he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires. He performs that in us. . . working with us .He alone can make our hearts soft.

It seems to be the other way around. The way you offered would seem to turn things upside down. like the unbelieving Jew. Taking away the understanding inspired of God, the Potter. .

Knowing no man could serve two teaching masters .I would think we make it the goal to walk by faith .The unseen understanding that gives us His revelation .