Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

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John146

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Jesus is Israel and no only owns Canaan but the whole world as promised to David. Abraham saw Canaan as a symbol of heaven. The broken off unbelievers have no claim to Canaan because all the promises are YES only in Christ.
Jesus is not Israel. Your private interpretation is lacking. There’s so many problems with your whole post #498.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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Jesus is not Israel. Your private interpretation is lacking. There’s so many problems with your whole post #498.
Who is Israel?

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)
Lots more if interested..........
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Who is Israel?

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)
Lots more if interested..........
God’s physical descendants of Jacob/Israel, the twelve tribes of Israel. That is a direct promise to them, not Christ’s Church.
 

Grandpa

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God’s physical descendants of Jacob/Israel, the twelve tribes of Israel. That is a direct promise to them, not Christ’s Church.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 

John146

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Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Spiritual seed, yes. We have not replaced God’s physical people Israel.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Who is Israel?

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)
Lots more if interested..........
If you want to claim the Church has replaced Israel and all it’s blessings, then you must also take all the cursing as well.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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If you want to claim the Church has replaced Israel and all it’s blessings, then you must also take all the cursing as well.
How can Israel replace Israel?
“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23 (KJV 1900)
 

John146

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How can Israel replace Israel?
“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23 (KJV 1900)
There has been no replacement. The promises of God for that people still stand.
 

Robertt

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May 22, 2019
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Bahrain
WE are grafted into them per PAuls letters.

So we are adopted into Israel. There is not two bodies, only one body.

Some think God loves the Church of Gentiles more than the people he chose from the beginning.

HMMM interesting...

some prrach God thinks the church deseres to be raptured but leaves ISrael behind to love through the tribulation

of course that is just westerners , many in other places in world been under tribulation for centuries.

So we all believe what we taught or read, but only GOD knows the truth,,,
 

ForestGreenCook

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First, Romans 5 does pertain to all mankind because it is available to all. As for Romans 8, that takes understanding what Paul's purpose in writing Romans was. Which was to address the divide in Rome between the Jewish church and gentile church. Those who were predestined are the gentiles to become part of God's elect, and it was fore-ordained that it would happen. Romans 8:28-29 is simply saying it was God's plan all along to not limit salvation to the jews. A huge part of the puzzle is that Romans among a lot of reforrmed is read as a theological treatise when it is in fact an occasional letter.
God named Jacob Israel. He is one person God called by His name. Jesus named him.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)

Jesus is Israel “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1) compare to; “And (Jesus) was there (in Egypt) until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)


“It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.”This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.” (Romans 9:6–8) (NET)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29) (KJV 1900)

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” Galatians 3:7 (KJV 1900)

The Hebrews and Israelites were the same people.



Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)

And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)

Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

So, Abraham’s seed were the Hebrews originally and also known as Israel.



Paul says Jesus is Abraham’s Seed along with those who believe in him



Jesus and believers are Israel.
Romans 9:6-11, Not all of the nation of Israel were the elect. Gen 22:17 (concerning Abraham), I will multiply thy seed (descendents) as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore. verse 18, And in thy seed (descendents) shall all the "nations" of the earth be blessed, because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Good to hear that you have included all of the believers from every "nation" as Israel, which is Jacob's name.
 

ForestGreenCook

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God’s physical descendants of Jacob/Israel, the twelve tribes of Israel. That is a direct promise to them, not Christ’s Church.
The descendents of Jacob/Israel is Christ's kingdom, the church.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Then you must accept the cursing upon the nation of Israel as well.
Sometimes when the scriptures mention the wicked they are referring to the unsaved, but most of the time they are referring to God's children. Jesus paid for all of the sins, past present and future, of his elect, as pertaining to their eternal security is concerned, but even after we have been born again we do still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature with us which is totally depraved.
 

John146

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Sometimes when the scriptures mention the wicked they are referring to the unsaved, but most of the time they are referring to God's children. Jesus paid for all of the sins, past present and future, of his elect, as pertaining to their eternal security is concerned, but even after we have been born again we do still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature with us which is totally depraved.
If you believe this, then you can’t equate the Church to Israel.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Here's a new article on limited atonement by Kevin DeYoung.

The reason why limited atonement is important is that it teaches an ACTUAL atonement, not a HYPOTHETICAL atonement.

Free-willers deny that the atonement actually has reconciled anyone to God, but has only provided a theoretical atonement. Reformed individuals teach that the atonement actually liberated specific individuals, and this atonement will be applied to them at the proper time.

In the free-willer view, Jesus really did not die for his sheep, but he died for all mankind. In other words, there are individuals who suffer eternal punishment whom his atonement applied to. They are being punished for their sins, even though Jesus paid the cost for them.

Note: the author has limited his words to 500 in this description, so it is not a comprehensive treatment.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/theological-primer-limited-atonement/

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Theological Primer - Limited Atonement
Kevin DeYoung

The doctrine of limited atonement—the L in TULIP—teaches that Christ effectively redeems from every people “only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation” (Canons of Dort, II.8). As Ursinus explains in his commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism, Christ’s death was for everyone “as it respects the sufficiency of satisfaction which he made, but not as it respects the application thereof.” In other words, the death of Christ was sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world, but it was God’s will that it should effectively redeem those and only those who were chosen from eternity and given to Christ by the Father.

Particular redemption is often considered a more favorable term, because the point of the doctrine is not to limit the mercy of God, but to make clear that Jesus did not die in the place of every sinner on the earth, but for his particular people. The good shepherd lays his life down, not for the goats, but for the sheep (John 10:11). This is why John 6 says Jesus came to save those the Father had given to him, and why Matthew 1:21 says he died for his people, and John 15:13 says for his friends, and Acts 20:28 says for the church, and Ephesians 5:25 says for his bride, and Ephesians 1:4 says for those chosen in Christ Jesus.

The doctrine of particular redemption is worth defining and defending because it gets to the heart of the gospel. Should we say “Christ died so that sinners might come to him”? Or, “Christ died for sinners”? Did Christ’s work on the cross make it possible for sinners to come to God? Or did Christ’s work on the cross actually reconcile sinners to God? In other words, does the death of Jesus Christ make us save-able or does it make us saved?

If the atonement is not particularly and only for the sheep, then either we have universalism—Christ died in everyone’s place and therefore everyone is saved—or we have something less than full substitution. “We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ,” Spurgeon observed, “because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved.” But, Spurgeon argued, it is the view of the atonement that says no one in particular was saved at the cross that actually limits Christ’s death. “We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ’s death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved.”

Christ does not come to us merely saying, “I’ve done my part. I laid down my life for everyone because I have saving love for everyone in the whole world. Now, if you would only believe and come to me I can save you.” Instead he says to us, I was pierced for your transgressions. I was crushed for your iniquities (Isa. 53:5). I have purchased with my blood men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation (Rev. 5:9). I myself bore your sins in my body on the tree, so that you might infallibly die to sins and assuredly live for righteousness. For my wounds did not merely make healing available. They healed you (1 Pet. 2:24).

“Amazing love!” a great Arminian once wrote. “How can it be that you, my God, should die for me?!” Praise be to our Good Shepherd who didn’t just make our salvation possible, but sustained the anger of God in body and soul, shouldered the curse, and laid down his life for the sheep.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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UnitedWithChrist

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Attached is a good article on misrepresentations of Reformed (Calvinist) theology that are commonly employed by free-willers.

It seems like Christians would be more conscientious about representing others' beliefs even if they disagree with them. But, unfortunately, I've found that some Christians are not conscientious in this regard and deliberately misrepresent the theology of their opponents in some cases. In other cases, it's a matter of ignorance and repeating the claims of other ignorant men. Dave Hunt would be an example of one such individual.
 

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UnitedWithChrist

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Here's a very handy chart of Scriptural proof texts to the doctrines of grace (TULIP) related to Reformed (Calvinist) doctrine. I don't agree with every single reference, but the majority are decent.
 

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