Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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Aug 3, 2019
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so now you teach that Jesus is a pagan deceiving the people telling them lies from Satan's mouth?
you know what it means when you start calling Christ a son of Belial, right?



So it was that the beggar died,
and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
(Luke 16:22)
so who do we believe, God or tele-dude?
i think this is not an hard decision.
No, CompostMan, I teach what Jesus taught: that the dead are dead and will stay dead until either the one or the other of the two resurrections.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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[
Why do we be baptized (for this subject matter)?


Go down into the water WE DIE and we are raised from the water.

WE are made a new creature. We suffer affliction NOW, THEY DON'T. We suffer persecution now, they don't. WHEN WE DIE, they suffer being bound to death WE DON'T.
amen good stuff !

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then we have Paul preaching the true gospel

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-3, 5-10, 12-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what a church that would be
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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No, CompostMan, I teach what Jesus taught: that the dead are dead and will stay dead until either the one or the other of the two resurrections.
Jesus taught this though are you teaching what Jesus taught that isn’t in scripture ? It seems your opposed to what Jesus taught in scripture

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Also events that happen on scripture seem to oppose also

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-
 
Aug 3, 2019
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do you or do you not agree with this man:
Do you still believe the wicked can partake in the "agape" love of God, though Scripture says the saints can tell we have God's "agape" if we're keeping His commandments (1 John 5:2-3 KJV) but the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV)?

If it fair to interrogate others but not submit yourself to interrogation, CompostMan?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Do you still believe the wicked can partake in the "agape" love of God, though Scripture says God's "agape" is shown in our keeping of His commandments (1 John 5:2-3 KJV) and the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV)?

If it fair to interrogate others but not submit yourself to interrogation, CompostMan?
seems childish to keep insulting him calling him “ compost man “ sort of immature
 
Dec 29, 2021
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No, CompostMan, I teach what Jesus taught: that the dead are dead and will stay dead until either the one or the other of the two resurrections.
Actually what Christ taught was the Believer's Soul departs and is Resurrected at physical death.

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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[[/QUOTE
Actually what Christ taught was the Believer's Soul departs and is Resurrected at physical death.

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
amen Martha hadn’t been listening to his word like mary she was thinking ot thoughts. Lazarus rose a few minutes later and Jesus spoke to him as his body lay dead his spirit lay asleep until Christ called him forth to rise up

Jesus did the same thing for these folks

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just like Lazarus they didn’t have to wait for the end of The world or the resurrection of the dead , they were called to Life by Jesus who is the resurrection and changes mans death forever when he entered death and conquered it now he holds the keys

“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he opened up life for mankind again and saved us from death[/QUOTE]
 
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You're adding to the plain reading of scripture. We are not our bodies! We are our souls. When Paul says to be present with the Lord he is meaning his soul. His body will be resurrected and changed but not upon death. Naked and unclothed is referring to being without a body.
I add nothing! None of the answers given by the "immortal soul" crowd about 2 Corinthians 5 accounts for "naked" and "unclothed".
What we have here this:
  • Immortal Soul crowd creates an exegesis account deficit by an unauthorized withdrawal from the passage
  • Phoneman777 comes along and makes an exegesis deposit whereby making back up the deficit
  • Immortal Soul crowd wrongly perceives the deposit as "additional assets"
"UNCLOTHED" AND "NAKED" REFERS TO THE INTERMEDIATE STATE BETWEEN THE MORTAL AND IMMORTAL BODY WHERE THE DISEMBODIED SOUL HAS CEASED TO BE, AND THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO INTERPRET THE VERSE.
 
Dec 29, 2021
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[[/QUOTE


amen Martha hadn’t been listening to his word like mary she was thinking ot thoughts. Lazarus rose a few minutes later and Jesus spoke to him as his body lay dead his spirit lay asleep until Christ called him forth to rise up

Jesus did the same thing for these folks

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just like Lazarus they didn’t have to wait for the end of The world or the resurrection of the dead , they were called to Life by Jesus who is the resurrection and changes mans death forever when he entered death and conquered it now he holds the keys

“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he opened up life for mankind again and saved us from death
Amen!
 
Dec 15, 2021
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Reasons for why the Rich Man/Lazarus is Literal or Parabolic:
Which way do the scales tip?

I. Literal:
1) Jesus used the proper name “Lazarus”

II. Parabolic:
1) The passage is found right in the midst of several other parabolic passages (Luke 14,15,16, 17)

2) The passage begins just as Jesus' other parables, “There was a certain (rich) man” and should be immediately recognized as a parable, just as “Once upon a time” is immediately recognized as the beginning of a fairy tale

3) The passage contains highly symbolic elements which by default disqualifies it as literal

4) “Abraham's bosom” is clearly symbolic, in that it is neither heaven or hell where it is popularly but erroneously claimed the dead immediately go

5) Abraham's literal bosom can't possibly be big enough to receive all the righteous dead

6) The Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have bodies with tongues, eyes, fingers, bosoms, etc., however the Bible teaches the dead do not again possess bodies until the resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21 KJV; Colossians 3:4 KJV; 1 John 3:2 KJV; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV; John 5:28-29 KJV; Job 14:12-14 KJV)

7) A person completely engulfed in flame can't carry on an intelligent conversation

8) A person completely engulfed in flame can't obtain relief from a drop of water

9) Jesus chose “Hades” instead of the fiery, burning, blazing “Gehenna” when mentioning hell

10) Scripture says the dead are buried or left unburied, not carried by angels anywhere

11) Scripture says the dead know not anything, but these dead do (Ecc. 9:5 KJV)

12) Scripture says the dead have no memory, but these dead do (Ecc. 9:5 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV)

13) Scripture says the dead have no emotions, but these dead do (Ecc. 9:6 KJV)

14) Scripture says the dead do not devise plans but the dead Rich Man does just that (Ecc. 9:10 KJV)

15) Scripture says the dead have no wisdom but these dead demonstrate wisdom (Ecc. 9:10 KJV)

16) Scripture says the dead go down into silence but these dead are heard talking (Psalms 115:17 KJV)

17) Scripture says the dead go down into darkness but these dead can see and be seen (Psalms 88:12 KJV)

“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.” -- Matthew 13:34-35 KJV
The dead flesh knows nothing. Those RAISED up RECOGNIZE each other. The Spiritually dead go down into darkness. They are not raised up. They know nothing till later.


Dead and spiritually dead, you seem to make no distinction. Earthy is SHED and heavenly GOES ON/RAISES UP. To every seed a body.

Can we be sure? YES


1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

JUST like there could be NO NEW COVENANT UNTIL THE OLD WAS DISPOSED OF, there can be no 'spiritual/heavenly/celestial body' until the FLESH ONE IS DISPOSED OF.


1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest NOT THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, AND TO EVERY SEED HIS OWN BODY
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Actually what Christ taught was the Believer's Soul departs and is Resurrected at physical death.

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
I don't see that anywhere here taught. What the Bible says is the Body returns to the dust, the Breath of Life to God and the Soul, unable to continue to exist, ceases to exist.

Jesus is talking about "never die" the Second Death, not "never die" as in the Serpent's "not surely die" lie in Eden, which seems to be all the rage on CC.
 
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I guess it was an evil spirit named Samuel.:confused:
I guess the "immortal soul" crowd thinks dead Saints in heaven have no choice but to come at the beck and call of demons when summoned by them, right? :unsure: And, you choose not to believe the wisest man who ever lived when he said "the dead know not anything"? :unsure:

IT WAS A DEMONIC FAMILIAR SPIRIT IMPERSONATING SAMUEL.
 
Dec 29, 2021
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I don't see that anywhere here taught. What the Bible says is the Body returns to the dust, the Breath of Life to God and the Soul, unable to continue to exist, ceases to exist.

Jesus is talking about "never die" the Second Death, not "never die" as in the Serpent's "not surely die" lie in Eden, which seems to be all the rage on CC.
Martha specifically answers she knows at the Last Day he will resurrect.
Jesus answers and corrects her it happens before then.
Before then, means at death, something about us gets resurrected.
You can debate if that is the Soul or Spirit, but it sure is not the body that resurrects at physical death.
 
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Unbelief and aggression against the Word of God is evidence of a void in your life that only Christ can fill.
That's why I pray for the "immortal soul" crowd ... who think God is worse than the vilest mass murdering despot ever to grace the topside of the Earth by their belief that He will torment the wicked for all eternity :)

Repent from such Religion of Exclusivity that is Eternal Torment, Luciferian Worship, Predestination, etc.
 
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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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No, CompostMan, I teach what Jesus taught: that the dead are dead and will stay dead until either the one or the other of the two resurrections.
previously discussed: your position openly Jesus a liar deceiving the people with the teachings of Satan in Luke 16.

you teach exactly the opposite of what Jesus teaches: you teach that God annihilates all living souls & you teach that life & existence are merely physical things.
 

kinda

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Jun 26, 2013
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I don't see that anywhere here taught. What the Bible says is the Body returns to the dust, the Breath of Life to God and the Soul, unable to continue to exist, ceases to exist.

Jesus is talking about "never die" the Second Death, not "never die" as in the Serpent's "not surely die" lie in Eden, which seems to be all the rage on CC.

I tend to agree with this post.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul. "--Genesis 2:7
'

'SOUL' needs to be read in all the contexts to understand what it is. BUT having a SEEN and an UNSEEN body makes the entire argument moot.


And formed 3335 YHVH God man 120 the dust 6083 of the ground 127 and breathed 5301 into his nostrils 639
the breath 5397 of life 2416 and became 1961 the man 120 a being 5315 living 2416



And formed

3335. yatsar ►
Strong's Concordance
yatsar: to form, fashion
Original Word: יָצַר
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: yatsar
Phonetic Spelling: (yaw-tsar')
Definition: to form, fashion
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to form, fashion
NASB Translation
Creator (1), devises (1), earthenware* (1), fashion (1), fashioned (1), fashioning (2), fashions (1), formed (20), forming (2), forms (2), made (1), Maker (2), maker (4), ordained (1), planned (4), potter (9), potter's (7), potters (1).


120. adam ►
Strong's Concordance
adam: man, mankind
Original Word: אָדָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: adam
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-dawm')
Definition: man, mankind


6083. aphar ►
Strong's Concordance
aphar: dry earth, dust
Original Word: עָפָר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: aphar
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-fawr')
Definition: dry earth, dust


5301. naphach ►
Strong's Concordance
naphach: to breathe, blow
Original Word: נָפַח
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: naphach
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-fakh')
Definition: to breathe, blow


639. aph ►
Strong's Concordance
aph: a nostril, nose, face, anger
Original Word: אַף
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: aph
Phonetic Spelling: (af)
Definition: a nostril, nose, face, anger


5397. neshamah ►
Strong's Concordance
neshamah: breath
Original Word: נְשָׁמָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: neshamah
Phonetic Spelling: (nesh-aw-maw')
Definition: breath


2416. chay ►
Strong's Concordance
chay: age
Original Word: חַי
Part of Speech: Adjective; feminine; noun masculine; noun feminine; noun feminine; noun masculine; Adjective; noun feminine
Transliteration: chay
Phonetic Spelling: (khah'-ee)
Definition: alive, living

120. adam ►
Strong's Concordance
adam: man, mankind
Original Word: אָדָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: adam
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-dawm')
Definition: man, mankind


5315. nephesh ►
Strong's Concordance
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
Original Word: נֶפֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-fesh)
Definition: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion


2416. chay ►
Strong's Concordance
chay: age
Original Word: חַי
Part of Speech: Adjective; feminine; noun masculine; noun feminine; noun feminine; noun masculine; Adjective; noun feminine
Transliteration: chay
Phonetic Spelling: (khah'-ee)
Definition: alive, living
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,777
13,535
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Do you still believe the wicked can partake in the "agape" love of God, though Scripture says the saints can tell we have God's "agape" if we're keeping His commandments (1 John 5:2-3 KJV) but the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV)?

If it fair to interrogate others but not submit yourself to interrogation, CompostMan?
previously discussed. agapao is linguistically identical in meaning to agape. it is a verb indicating agape ((a noun)) in action.


"endure in what?"