Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,046
113
1st Corinthians Chapter 15 --if you read this and continue to believe that a person can go directly to heaven when they die, then you are willfully choosing to remain blind. (word count limit--please read the whole chapter)

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
We can read this and understand it at the same time.

What verse pinpoints your assumption of = "after death, souls/spirits of the deceased do not go to heaven".
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,717
593
113
how does the scripture define "life" ?
That's a foolish question, seeing a how it's been quoted multiple times by others.

"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul. "--Genesis 2:7

Here's more:

Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Nehemiah 9:6
“You alone are the Lord.
You have made the heavens,
The heaven of heavens with all their host,
The earth and all that is on it,
The seas and all that is in them.
You give life to all of them
And the heavenly host bows down before You.

1 Timothy 6:13
I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

--and--

John 1:3-4
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Job 10:12
‘You have granted me life and lovingkindness;
And Your care has preserved my spirit.

Ezekiel 16:6
“When I passed by you and saw you squirming in your blood, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’ Yes, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’

Deuteronomy 32:39
‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Revelation 11:11
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,285
176
63
you still do not appear to understand what you are reading.

1 Corinthians 15:52 is talking about His second coming. it does not say it is the time we will pass from death to life ((unless you have only a carnal, monistic, atheistic definition of 'death')). the scripture defines life as our present possession, and not in terms of the atheistic monism definition of the mere temporary animation of dust.
is John 5:2 talking about the same thing?
No its not, it is the Rapture, it is pre trib.

The Dead are Raised WITHOUT Corruption (or in plan simple speak, as Spirit Men without Sin Flesh) and thus what do those of us who are alive need to do? We have to be CHANGED, again in simple plain speak, we have to PUT OFF this bodies "CORRUPTION" which is Sin Flesh, yes its redundant, but people confuse why we need to be CHANGED, and its because we are on our way to Heaven where sin flesh CAN NOT ENTER, thus we need to change from a Flesh body to a Spirit body that has been reborn in Jesus, it tells us all thee things in the passages, but people are either confused by the scriptures or by other men's ideas. In essence, if people would just back up about 10 verses and read and study the passage, it is quite easy to understand.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(Flesh body); it is raised in incorruption(Spirt Man): 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption . {{In other words, no SIN FLESH can become UNSINFUL, so to speak, we must be CHANGED}}

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(Without sin bodies), and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible(our current bodies as living human beings) must put on incorruption, (or be CHANGED from a human with a body to a Spirit Man which is the Man born of Heaven as shown in verse 47) and this mortal must put on immortality.


Ifs quite sipe really, even in this Old English(e)

We simply DIE as per our human bodies, because our Spirit Man LEAVES that Sin Flesh on earth which CAN NOT enter Heaven as verse 50 clearly tells us, we are thus not WHISKED AWAY, we DIE as Humans and "CHANGE" into that new Spirit Man born of Heaven. Then our Spirit Man goes to Heaven where we will get our new Glorious Bodies.

Men just cant grasp facts it seems today, everyone has their own ideas and don't just simply read the passages.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
where did I say anything in reference to this? >cessation of existence upon the death of the carnal body.
do you or do you not agree with this man:


Of course: they've ceased to exist because a Soul comes into existence at the moment the Body and the Breath of Life unite...

...and by the authority of God's Word as well as the laws of common sense, cause and effect, logic and reason, and plain ol' reading comprehension - at the disunion of the Body and Breath of Life the Soul must cease to exist.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
That's a foolish question, seeing a how it's been quoted multiple times by others.

"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul. "--Genesis 2:7

Here's more:

Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Nehemiah 9:6
“You alone are the Lord.
You have made the heavens,
The heaven of heavens with all their host,
The earth and all that is on it,
The seas and all that is in them.
You give life to all of them
And the heavenly host bows down before You.

1 Timothy 6:13
I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

--and--

John 1:3-4
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Job 10:12
‘You have granted me life and lovingkindness;
And Your care has preserved my spirit.

Ezekiel 16:6
“When I passed by you and saw you squirming in your blood, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’ Yes, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’

Deuteronomy 32:39
‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Revelation 11:11
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
these do not define life.
these say, God gives life; life is a gift of God.

please define life per the scripture.. ?
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,717
593
113
You don't believe the Lake of Fire is Eternal and Forever?
Short answer: No.

Longer answer:

Because the bible plainly says hundreds upon hundreds of times in literal language that the wicked perish and are destroyed. What does John say the lake of fire represents? The second DEATH. And no one receives the gift of immortality EXCEPT the Believer.

Are you not familiar with these well known verses?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "--Romans 6:23

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "--John 3:16

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.” "--Malachi 4:1

Do you not believe that death means death and destroy means destroy? Do a word search for the LITERAL verses that use these terms and stop clinging to few figurative verses. 'e.g. the smoke of their torment goes up forever--by the way that is for those who WORSHIP the beast--it is the literal fire that God will send on the earth at the end of the age--like a few small tremors before the BIG ONE when the heavens and earth are literally destroyed by fire.

Do you believe Christ paid the penalty of DEATH by dying in our place? You can't actually believe this if you believe in eternal hell fire. If you believe eternal hell fire is the punishment for sin and NOT Christ's death on the cross, that means Christ Himself is there burning for all eternity if THAT is the punishment for sin.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,717
593
113
these do not define life.
these say, God gives life; life is a gift of God.

please define life per the scripture.. ?

Curious how you 'ignore' your mistakes, e.g. 'carnal'....

Here's a Bible Dictionary definition--same thing. Sheesh.


Bible Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Life
Life [N] [E]
God (Yahweh) as the Source and Sustainer of Life. According to Genesis 2:7, "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." This "breath of life" does not distinguish human beings from other animals, nor perhaps even plant life, as can be seen in Genesis 1:29-30. When God declared his judgment against Noah's generation, all creation in which there was the "breath of life" would suffer the destruction of the flood ( Gen 6:17 ; Genesis 7:15 Genesis 7:21-23 ). The breath of life distinguishes the living from the dead, not human beings from animals ( Eccl 3:18-19 ). Consistently throughout Scripture God is portrayed as the giver of life, which distinguishes living organisms from inanimate things ( Rom 4:17 ).

Life is contingent upon the continuing, sustaining "breath" of God. When God ceases to breathe, life is no more, "How many are your works, O Lord! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures When you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust" ( Psalms 104:24 Psalms 104:29 ). Death is frequently described as the cessation of this divine activity ( Gen 25:8 ; Mark 15:37 ). It is for this reason that the psalmist concludes, "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord" ( Psalm 150:6 ; cf. Rom 1:20-21 ).
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
Short answer: No.

Longer answer:

Because the bible plainly says hundreds upon hundreds of times in literal language that the wicked perish and are destroyed. What does John say the lake of fire represents? The second DEATH. And no one receives the gift of immortality EXCEPT the Believer.

Are you not familiar with these well known verses?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "--Romans 6:23

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "--John 3:16

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.” "--Malachi 4:1

Do you not believe that death means death and destroy means destroy? Do a word search for the LITERAL verses that use these terms and stop clinging to few figurative verses. 'e.g. the smoke of their torment goes up forever--by the way that is for those who WORSHIP the beast--it is the literal fire that God will send on the earth at the end of the age--like a few small tremors before the BIG ONE when the heavens and earth are literally destroyed by fire.

Do you believe Christ paid the penalty of DEATH by dying in our place? You can't actually believe this if you believe in eternal hell fire. If you believe eternal hell fire is the punishment for sin and NOT Christ's death on the cross, that means Christ Himself is there burning for all eternity if THAT is the punishment for sin.
So you believe in an Unjust God that makes some Believe to have Eternal Life, but those who refuse Him get the same Reward?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,502
113
When I'm walking out to the parking lot to leave after a long hard day, I want nothing better to be absent from the phone company and present in a hot shower...but I still fight that horrible rush hour traffic on the drive home, right?

Paul wanted to be absent from the body and present with Jesus but he knew he'd be lying "naked" and "unclothed" in the grave dead waiting for his "crown of righteousness at that day" of "His appearing" when Jesus will "change our vile body that it might be fashioned like unto His glorious body". Please read 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 KJV and incorporate "naked" and "unclothed" instead of glossing over in order to retain a false idea. :)
You're adding to the plain reading of scripture. We are not our bodies! We are our souls. When Paul says to be present with the Lord he is meaning his soul. His body will be resurrected and changed but not upon death. Naked and unclothed is referring to being without a body.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,717
593
113
So you believe in an Unjust God that makes some Believe to have Eternal Life, but those who refuse Him get the same Reward?
Clueless what you are saying here. Are you using Google translate? Obviously you're responding without actually reading what I wrote.

God would be unjust if you believe in 'eternal hell fire'--here we go again. So very many of you out their cling to this false teaching (which the Protestants got from their mother church the RCC, who got it from the pagans) of eternal fire that would torment and punish people for all eternity for a few years of sin on the earth. You make God out to be equal to Satan himself with this blasphemous lie--which is exactly what Satan wants.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,502
113
Yes, let's all believe dead saints in heaven have to obey the commands of Satan's witches and appear at their beck and call...SMH

A "familiar spirit" is a DEMON impersonating a dead loved one and is why God told us not to talk with them, the same reason we tell our kids not to talk to strangers. That was not Samuel, for Solomon said of dead Samuel, "the dead know not anything."
I guess it was an evil spirit named Samuel.:confused:
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,717
593
113
You're adding to the plain reading of scripture. We are not our bodies! We are our souls. When Paul says to be present with the Lord he is meaning his soul. His body will be resurrected and changed but not upon death. Naked and unclothed is referring to being without a body.
I am gobsmacked that nearly all of you without exception respond without having read the other side's position. It is a pagan belief that ALL souls are immortal--not to mention it is blasphemy as it makes Christ's second coming pointless if everyone goes to their destination without going thru the Judgment--and that believers can enter heaven without their immortal bodies-- and it is to completely ignore the majority of what the bible actually states.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
Clueless what you are saying here. Are you using Google translate? Obviously you're responding without actually reading what I wrote.

God would be unjust if you believe in 'eternal hell fire'--here we go again. So very many of you out their cling to this false teaching (which the Protestants got from their mother church the RCC, who got it from the pagans) of eternal fire that would torment and punish people for all eternity for a few years of sin on the earth. You make God out to be equal to Satan himself with this blasphemous lie--which is exactly what Satan wants.
I don't believe in a Burning place called Hell.
But, I do believe in the Lake of Fire where Christ is Judge and we read where the dead who are told Christ does not know them is cast into the Lake of Fire.

And let's not forget about those who refuse God and take the Mark:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Tormented forever and ever and their smoke [burning] can be seen forever.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,717
593
113
So you believe in an Unjust God that makes some Believe to have Eternal Life, but those who refuse Him get the same Reward?
And how on earth do the unbelievers get the same reward? Are you multitasking while your typing this?:unsure:

Believers get ETERNAL LIFE
Unbelievers get DEATH and DESTRUCTION

How on God's green earth are those two things the same....sheesh and double sheesh.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
And how on earth do the unbelievers get the same reward? Are you multitasking while your typing this?:unsure:

Believers get ETERNAL LIFE
Unbelievers get DEATH and DESTRUCTION

How on God's green earth are those two things the same....sheesh and double sheesh.
When people present Scripture, you do not know what side they're debating until clarified.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,717
593
113
I don't believe in a Burning place called Hell.
But, I do believe in the Lake of Fire where Christ is Judge and we read where the dead who are told Christ does not know them is cast into the Lake of Fire.

And let's not forget about those who refuse God and take the Mark:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Tormented forever and ever and their smoke [burning] can be seen forever.

Maybe you're new to the Christian faith--Revelation is a HIGHLY SYMBOLIC book--and we know that because of the fantastical images which some of them the angel explains--and it tells us that in the very first chapter. You can't take everything so literally, otherwise you miss the truth in its pages.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
Maybe you're new to the Christian faith--Revelation is a HIGHLY SYMBOLIC book--and we know that because of the fantastical images which some of them the angel explains--and it tells us that in the very first chapter. You can't take everything so literally, otherwise you miss the truth in its pages.
OK, I was Saved in the 1970's and seen everything preached under the sun.

Let's take the first 3 Chapters of Revelation concerning the Churches Paul set up.
Then, let's look at the Apostle John as Bishop over the Church of Ephesus and his Disciples as Leaders over the other Churches.
Christ explains the sins to John, and later John is overseeing these Churches to fix them.

If that is Real and confirmed by the Church Fathers, what makes you think the rest is an illusion, because you say so?
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
When 21st Century minds realize that rather unknown fact, it puts a whole new light on the parable. Too many people error and see it as a story about losing and gaining back salvation. In fact, it is about a son breaking fellowship with Dad, finally coming to his senses (repenting), confessing his sin and returning to Dad (restoration of fellowship). It's nothing more than that.
it's much more than that. the other son is evil and intends to kill the father and his brother, and take all the inheritance for himself.
That is quite the imagination.

The other son got out of fellowship when the prodigal came home.

Kinda like so many believers who think that salvation can be lost. When a wild idiot repents, confesses and gets back in fellowship, they just can't stand it and think he should go to hell.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
Here's a Bible Dictionary definition--same thing. Sheesh.


Bible Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Life
Life [N] [E]
God (Yahweh) as the Source and Sustainer of Life.

like i said, you've only described life as originating from God, being the gift of God.

if i say i have given you a present, that doesn't tell me what the present is.

what is life?

the Bible says. do you not remember the things Christ said?

but then, you still haven't answered me whether you believe Him:



Amen, Amen I say to you:
he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,
and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life!
(John 5:2)
note that "has everlasting life" is present tense; a present & ongoing possession
note that "
has passed from death into life" is past tense; a completed action.
note that "
shall not come into judgement" is explicitly excluding a certain future.


do you believe what He says?
your little human dictionary isn't consistent with what He says here.
who do you believe?
God or man?


give me God's definition of life. not atheistic monist man's.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,046
113
A Soul is not an translucent apparition that flies away when we die. That is pagan doctrine that traces itself all the way back to the lying Serpent in the Garden.
Unbelief and aggression against the Word of God is evidence of a void in your life that only Christ can fill.