Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
The "inner man" refers to the "I" the "ego" the "self" the "me" - it's what results from the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. The "Soul" is a person, you, me, Hitler.

It ceases to be when this union is broken and the Spirit returns to God and the Body to dust. Our hope should be in the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:18 KJV) not Serpent lies about "thou shalt now surely die".

"Oh, Eve, you'll die all right....but not surely....you're going to continue to exist but on another, higher plane of existence JUST LIKE GOD."

Everybody wants so desperately to be God...celebrities, occult Luciferians and Satanists....and Christians too.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
What you seem to completely miss is that the "wages of sin" has already been paid in full by Jesus on the cross.
When did I say they weren't?

I've always said the penalty for sin Jesus paid was death...the "immortal soul" crowd thinks the wages of sin is eternal torment because they think sinners are granted eternal life in flames instead of suffering death, which is the absence of life, not a continuation thereof.

If the wages of sin was eternal torment, the only way Jesus could pay those wages for us is if HE be eternally tormented.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,921
113
To the soul sleepers and soul annihilators on this thread.

These 2 theories create a huge unanswered question for those who push them.

If the soul sleeps at physical death, until the resurrection, either for the saved or for the unsaved, and the souls of unbelievers will be annihilated at the GWT judgment, then please answer this question.

Why did Jesus come to earth and die for everyone? And what, specifically, does He save anyone FROM? John 1:29 and 4:42 and 1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 4:14 call Jesus the Savior of the world.

So, what does He save us FROM?

Because, here's the deal, if your 2 theories are accurate.

Believers will eventually wake up and go to heaven.

Unbelievers can live like hell, then go to sleep at death (no consequences for their behavior) and be resurrected to appear at the GWT judgment. And then be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist. Again, no consequences for their behavior.

So basically, these theories remove ANY consequences for sinful, rebellious behavior after death. There is sleep and then ceasing to exist.

So, basically, these theories are unbiblical. They remove ANY reason for even thinking one needs to be saved!!!!

So, what specifically does Jesus save us from? If you claim that He saves us from ceasing to exist, why would ceasing to exist even be a problem that we need to be saved from?

Is there any suffering, whether mental, emotional or physical, that is experienced for anyone who ceases to exist? No, there isn't.

Obviously nothing, if the 2 theories are correct.
Exactly... why would Jesus have spent so much time warning about hell, eternal fire, eternal punishment if it didn't really exist?

The unrepentant are going where their "worm" dieth not and the fire is not quenched.
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
One doesn't end so a new can begin. Who you are when you die is who you will continue being as we go through the transition from seen to the unseen.

Gods plan continues on. Our lives continue on. WE, our distinct 'spirit' and/or 'soul' ,which ever word you use for the part of you that makes you you, as the thinker and feeler is carried forward.

Our works do follow us. Our works form our character. Following Gods laws now shape us. What was one a 'law' has become a personality trait as natural as breathing. We walk a little more holy. Another step up the ladder away from beastly nature and closer to 'perfect'. Even Christ was perfected. Christ, partaker of flesh and blood just like we are.

Our 'works' can cover a multitude of sin because every part of our beast nature overcome, are sins never committed (one less stripe on Christ?) our healing transfers to helping heal those we have hurt because they see we understand.

Christ Himself came down and did it all for us. Not 'for us' as in doing it so we didn't have to do it ourselves but for us as in showing us how it is done, and doing what we could not, on the cross. (NO, I don't believe that Christ will judge Himself a billion times over) Judgment day come and it isn't 'How well did He work within me' being judged but the "How much did I take advantage of Him leading and guiding" by praying to Him in life and study.

The closer we get to walking holy the more He sees our love. That is why every moment and test that comes our way is GOOD. YES, our sins are forgiven and we are under grace but we must remember GOD didn't change who He was and who He wants us to be. WE will be refined by fire. What does that tell HIM? If we are still mostly 'dross' then there will be little of us left and instead of being able to teach we will still be in need of teaching. Those who are studying and trying and working those laws to walk more holy ridding themselves of their own dross with the help of the Holy Spirit, when refined will have no dross and be weighty. Vessels of gold and honor down to vessels of wood and dishonor.

What we seem to not take into consideration is the Judgment coming. Think about what we are told. God says he will MORE THAN recompense us our tribulations. Have you ever asked WHY it is good for us to suffer these things besides the good it just does to our spirit?

THE OTHER SIDE OF JUDGMENT. That is where God judges the evil 'evidence' against a person. I don't know how to word it any better than it's almost a job we are doing for Him. Why would He take the church when the most evidence would be needed. It just makes no sense.

So what is the point of having those you created 'to give you pleasure' all sleeping on the job. How boring. Don't think God can handle all that company? Finally having returned and 'put to bed'? Isn't there a lot to learn still? Isn't there a day fast approaching in which we will be reigning and ruling with Him? Sorry, but sleeping just goes again everything I got from the OT also. God WANTS to be our King, Lord, Creator, Father, Provider etc.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
No, to destroy the wicked....out of existence.

Among the Hebrews, "...leave them neither root nor branch" was a proverbial expression expression for "complete and total destruction". Nothing left. No spirit, no body, no soul, nothing.
i often contemplate if the souls of men and evil spirits and the fallen angels ever are completely annihilated out of what we call "existence", as we know/think of it.

How many years do you think it takes for the soul of man to be completely annihilated once it is thrown into the Lake of Fire?
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

What kind of symbol is this?
I agree with that which someone said earlier: that not every word in Revelation is symbolism. For instance, I believe there is a literal Tree of Life, River of Life, etc. John's encounter here with the angel isn't fantastical imagery like a 7 headed beast coming out of the sea, souls under the altar, or a two horned lamb-like beast - it's obviously interaction between John and the messenger angel whilst John was in vision receiving the revelation from the angel...like when we see the angel and Scrooge talking to each other in "It's A Wonderful Life".
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
lolx100

You're joking - right?
Lolx100 at scripture? That’s awkward.

The subject of the passages we’re talking about is the general state of people in the world, not individual people. Read John 3:16-21 again. If you’re just going to laugh at scripture we have nothing more to talk about.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Our lives continue on. WE, our distinct 'spirit' and/or 'soul' ,which ever word you use for the part of you that makes you you, as the thinker and feeler is carried forward.
\
YOU SEE??? HERE LIES THE PROBLEM.

Genesis 2:7 KJV clearly defines what is the Spirit, Body, and Soul, but no one wants to accept it because it destroys their flawed concepts of the afterlife.

Spirit - God's "life giving principle" that animates the inanimate.
Body - inanimate dust scooped together by God
Soul - the result of combining God's Spirit with the Body
The Body clearly differentiates between the two: says the Soul and Spirit can be divided; says Jesus' Soul went down but His Spirit went up; says God desires our Spirit and Body and whole Soul would be preserved just as one might tell workers to "paint the kitchen, the bathrooms, the whole entire house".
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
AGREE = Repent from your pride and speaking against the Word of God.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Some confuse "pride" with "confidence in God's Word".
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
You have hardened your heart in the sin of pride and unbelief.

It is written: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.

Then some of the scribes answered and said, “Teacher, You have spoken well.”

Even some scribes recognized that Christ spoke Truth according to the Scripture.

How much more should you bend your knee before HIM and Love the Lord God with all your heart mind soul and strength.
It's you who've done that, friend. God is the God of the "living" meaning those who are sleeping but will awake to heavenly glory and not suffer the Second Death. They are not in heaven now because "the dead know not anything" and "do not praise the Lord" which they'd be doing if they were not dead.

Why do you think Solomon is stupid?
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Hey, I have a chiasm for you.

“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:6–8)​

A. good courage
B. absent from the Lord = at home in the body
X. we walk by faith
B. absent from the body = at home with the Lord
A. good courage
Too bad is doesn't say "absent from the body "equals" present with the Lord, right? Westcott and Hort schemed on how they would change a 'little word here and there" and those stupid Protestants wouldn't even know their Bible had been changed.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,921
113
Ok, if sinners go straight to sleep and your soul is dead (no consciousness at all) then are resurrected on judgment day and cast into the Lake of fire....and annihilated.

Then there would be no hell, and that is in direct opposition to scripture.

We can like it or not but there is a hell and those who are not saved when they die, will face it.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Nothing in the passage fits your theology. Nothing. This is Samuel brought up, not down, to speak to Saul.

1 Samuel 28
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.
5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul
, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?
And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
Yes, a satanic witch forced Samuel to come up, right?

One would think the "immortal soul" crowd would ask themselves, "If silly Solomon was wrong and that Samuel was actually in heaven knowing things and doing things and was able to have things to do with all that stuff down there under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV)...why the flip did he "come up from below" instead of "coming down from heaven???"

Because what came up from below was demonic, that's why.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
Lolx100 at scripture? That’s awkward.

The subject of the passages we’re talking about is the general state of people in the world, not individual people. Read John 3:16-21 again. If you’re just going to laugh at scripture we have nothing more to talk about.
Who is laughing at Scripture??? i am laughing at the clear error in the FACE and LIGHT of the very WORD's of CHRIST.

If, you cannot see that the LORD says, condemnation is current and has ALREADY been handed down by God, then you have a problem that cause you to override/disbelieve the clear Scripture/Words of Christ in your mind.

A.) Whoever believes in Him is not condemned,
B.) but whoever does not believe has already been condemned,
C.) because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

D.) And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

God has ALREADY handed down Judgment BEFORE a man leaves this earth.

HIS Judgment stands and is immediately administered upon death as we see in Luke ch16 and in Revelation.

HIS Judgment will be FINALIZED at the Resurrection of the Just = SALVATION = Immortal Glorified Bodies made into His Likeness
and
at the Resurrection of the wicked = Lake of Fire = Second Death
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
I said:

These 2 theories create a huge unanswered question for those who push them.

If the soul sleeps at physical death, until the resurrection, either for the saved or for the unsaved, and the souls of unbelievers will be annihilated at the GWT judgment, then please answer this question.

Why did Jesus come to earth and die for everyone? And what, specifically, does He save anyone FROM? John 1:29 and 4:42 and 1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 4:14 call Jesus the Savior of the world.

So, what does He save us FROM?
I think the most straight forward answer is in John 3:16-17. Obviously this passage might be skewed by personal interpretation, but I ask that you just try to accept what the passage literally says.

John 3:16-17 KJV
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

God sent His son to save the world. Those who believe in Him will have everlasting life. Those who don't believe in Him will perish. God sent His sent His Son to save people from being destroyed.
Your answer totally misses my point. I don't see ANY kind of consequence for unbelievers in annihilation theory. Or soul sleep.

I said:
"Because, here's the deal, if your 2 theories are accurate.
Believers will eventually wake up and go to heaven."
I think it's more accurate to say that they will sleep sometimes, but not necessarily all of the time. See Rev 6:11 and Rev. 14:13.
My point is that at physical death, the believer (and unbeliever who also has a soul) will sleep UNTIL the resurrection of either. So there is no reason to use the words "sometimes" as if it could be an on and off kind of deal. At physical death, the soul sleeps UNTIL resurrection. All sleep all the time, UNTIL the resurrection. Not "sometimes".

I said:
"Unbelievers can live like hell, then go to sleep at death (no consequences for their behavior) and be resurrected to appear at the GWT judgment. And then be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist. Again, no consequences for their behavior."
Yes, that's accurate.
Wow. At least you are accurate. In spite of the account of Lazarus and a rich man. But you missed the point about the fact that your view of annihilation means NO CONSEQUENCES for unbelievers EVER, unless you count being cast into the lake of fire and existing only for a few seconds as a consequence.

Unbelievers aren't judged and sentenced prior to the GWTJ. There's no verse about a pre-judgement punishment that I'm aware of.
I never even suggested any kind of "pre-judgment punishment" idea. I do believe that the compartment in Hades (Sheol) called Torments which is a holding tank for the unbelievers will not be pleasant.

That would mean people from thousands of years ago are currently suffering longer for the same crimes than those who died thousands of years later. That's no fair.
The place the Bible calls Torments wasn't my idea. Go tell God He is unfair. Please.

That's why there is a summary judgement called the GWTJ.
In the annihilation theory, that's no big deal. Where are the consequences? None. All that the unbeliever experiences is a resurrection of the body (wakes from sleep) and is told they were a bad boy. Then they cease to exist.


Like I pointed out, unbelievers can live like hell and face NO CONSEQUENCES.

John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
A resurrection of damnation means a resurrection to judgement. Damnation means judgement.

So what? Your so-called "judgment/damnation" is only ceasing to exist. Where is the consequence of that?


I think your premise is built on false assumptions. Which verse says that after people die they immediately go to punishment?
Rather, it is YOUR premise that is a false assumption. I never said people "go to immediate punishment" after they die.


I DID say, because the BIBLE DOES say, that unbelievers go to hell (Hades, Sheol) at physical death and await the GWT judgment.

But the Bible says we are saved in order to have eternal life and not be put to death; that's the reason.
To this I would say, big deal. So what?


According to annihilation theory, "death" is nothing more than ceasing to exist. So being put to death means no more suffering of any kind.

Not a bad deal for those who live like hell and have NO CONSEQUENCES for it.

Saved from death.
Again, so what? What's the big deal?

You need to face this aspect of your theory. If souls sleep after physical death, and at the GWT judgment, the "damnation" is merely ceasing to exist, what's the issue?

All your theory does is encourage people to live like hell because there WON'T BE ANY CONSEQUENCES for their behavior.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
Preposterous!! The Bible SAYS it was Samuel talking. And he was talking to King Saul, who was still living. Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day. If there is such a thing as soul sleep, was Samuel inviting him to a slumber party, like Jesus must have done with the thief on the cross? Where do you get your material for all this made up stuff?
I don't make anything up. Solomon says the dead have nothing to do with anything done on Earth (Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV), so I choose to believe the wisest man who ever lived.
So then, you ARE claiming that the writer of 2 Samuel was LYING. Or at least making up stuff. He directly names Samuel as the one who appears to Saul. Deal with the truth.

It could only have been a demonic apparition and was called "Samuel" because it took on the "familiar" likeness of Samuel; hence the name "familiar spirit". Also, I don't need the Bible to tell me satanic witches don't have power over God's faithful, especially faithful hero prophets like Samuel.
Sure. Make up your own stuff. If the appearance wasnt literally Samuel, then the Bible is purposely misleading all the people who easily understand that God did have Samuel appear to Saul.

Your excuses are pitiful.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Ok, if sinners go straight to sleep and your soul is dead (no consciousness at all) then are resurrected on judgment day and cast into the Lake of fire....and annihilated.

Then there would be no hell, and that is in direct opposition to scripture.

We can like it or not but there is a hell and those who are not saved when they die, will face it.
What I see in the New Testament is that hell is used to describe “Gehenna” which was a place called the valley of Hinnom. I guess Gehenna was a garbage dump in Jerusalem where they burned garbage night and day, but not forever since they aren’t still burning garbage there in the present day.

Hell is sometimes translated from hades which is a place of departed souls and literally means the grave.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
What this means is they refused to receive the free gift of eternal life. Therefore, they send themselves to the lake of fire. And will have an eternity to think about it..
Solomon:
"The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything."

FreeGrace2:
"The living know that they shall die, know they are dead after they die, and will forever contemplate their bad choices."
:rolleyes:
The Bible teaches that.

Why don't you deal with post 424 and the horrible teaching that soul sleep and annihilation theory leads to?
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Who is laughing at Scripture??? i am laughing at the clear error in the FACE and LIGHT of the very WORD's of CHRIST.

If, you cannot see that the LORD says, condemnation is current and has ALREADY been handed down by God, then you have a problem that cause you to override/disbelieve the clear Scripture/Words of Christ in your mind.

A.) Whoever believes in Him is not condemned,
B.) but whoever does not believe has already been condemned,
C.) because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

D.) And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

God has ALREADY handed down Judgment BEFORE a man leaves this earth.

HIS Judgment stands and is immediately administered upon death as we see in Luke ch16 and in Revelation.

HIS Judgment will be FINALIZED at the Resurrection of the Just = SALVATION = Immortal Glorified Bodies made into His Likeness
and
at the Resurrection of the wicked = Lake of Fire = Second Death
I don’t even care what you said at this point. Go laugh some more mocker.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
Probably this has been explained elsewhere, but it is a host of angels not believers who are coming on the clouds--also the clouds translates to 'princes'' a name also used for angels-note that when thousands upon thousands of birds are flying together they are called a cloud of birds. (see video below)

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. "--Revelations 1:7

Holy Ones and Saints means the same thing. The same way sheol, hades, and hell mean the grave.

Proof text below that Christ is coming with ANGELS, not believers. Understand that it doesn't make sense to say Christ comes with believers since the whole point of His coming is to GATHER THEM! God is bringing with Christ the believers--another way to say it is Christ is bringing with Him the believers from earth to heaven. They are NOT coming down with him from heaven.

" For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him (Christ). "--1st Thessalonians 4:14

For further clarity. "He is bringing his wife to the event", "He is bringing his child to the park.", "He is bringing his friend along with him to the dinner."

Furthermore, there is so much false doctrine that must be believed if you take that ONE verse in that way--it's like Russian nesting eggs.:confused:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones "--Jude 1:14

"For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done "--Matthew 15:27


Again, it is in the isolation of verses that all false doctrine originates--we need to see the 'big picture' of scripture and test scripture against scripture.

Here is a small glimpse of what it will look like when Christ returns with His multitude of witnesses (again angels not believers)