Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I think the unsaved get back into their old physical bodies to be burned in the lake of fire, while their souls will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" according to Rev 20:10.

Another problem with this is that it contraduicts scripture.

You claim the body is burned in the lake of fire but the soul remains to be tortured but scripture says something else:

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .

Your view has been annihilated by Rev 20:10 which I just discussed and proved. The beast and FP will STILL BE THERE when Satan joins them. And again, being able to do something and actually DOING something are 2 different things.

Until you find a verse that specifically says that the immaterial soul IS destroyed there is no reason to accept your opinions.

And Luke 16 destroys (annihilates) your view as well. Jesus would NEVER give a parable that is so outlandish and unreal. There would be no point at all. EVERY parable He gave could be easily identified with normal human behavior/activity.

Being destroyed means both body and soul are Annihilated.

Your opinions have been annihilated.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Titus 2:11 says the grace of God offers salvation to everyone.

Hence the MILLENNIUM

Sure. Salvation will be available during the Millennium, but given the rebellion (global) at the end, it seems no one is interested.

FreeGrace2 said:
Since there will be bodily resurrection of all unbelievers, I believe it will be their earthly body. And that will surely be destroyed in the lake of fire, leaving the soul, which is immaterial, to be tormented "day and night for ever and ever". Rev 20:10.

I am not able to believe this because we are told

1Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Well, consider this: the beast and FP will be thrown into the lake of fire in their earthly bodies.

We know there will be a literal resurrection of the unsaved. So they show up with a body. There is no reason to assume they will be given something other than what they died with. Just like the beast and FP.

1 Cor 15:48-56 was directed at believers. Therefore, it applies to believers. I see no reason to apply this passage to unbelievers.

Again, I default to the beast and FP.

Oh, and btw, what about Enoch and Elijah? They are probably the 2 Witnesses in the Trib, since they never physically died. When they are raised to life 3.5 days after their death, they rise to heaven. The Bible gives no evidence that they received their glorified bodies. We know all believers get their glorified bodies at the same event, and what will be when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

I have no problem believing that the resurrection of unbelievers will involve their physical bodies that they died with. And when they are cast into the lake of fire, it will be their physical bodies that will perish, be destroyed and annihilated. And, like the beast, FP and Satan (and all his angels) they ALL will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever". Rev 20:10 is my evidence.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, what does Jesus SAVE people FROM, given your soul sleep/annihilation theory?

"...and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

So what then, if there is NO CONSEQUENCES for sin, other than ceasing to exist?

Why can't you guys admit that when if a person ceases to exist, they experience nothing, because they have become nothing?

In THAT state, there are NO CONSEQUENCES.

Jesus saves people from the "wages of sin" which is "death", not eternal torment, for if the wages of sin was etenral torment, the only way He could save us from that would be that HE be eternally tormented.

Ridiculous.

All atheists expect that at death, they will simply cease to exist. So whatever they have done during their life won't matter because they will NOT suffer any CONSEQUENCES for them, regardless of how bad they may be.

To cease to exist means to experience nothing. No suffering. Esp suffering NO CONSEQUENCES.

But you guys seem to be just too stubborn admitting this fact.

Why would anyone fear "nothing", for that is exactly what annihilation is; nothing. Nothing left. Nothing to experience. Zip.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did you know the devil will cease to exist? "Thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT THOU BE anymore".

This is really delusional.

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So you are "trumping" Rev 20:10 with the verse you quote above? So that's how it works? Just find a verse that you think negates (annihilates) a verse that refutes your opinions? Slick, anyway.

To "never shalt thou be" is a clear reference to the fact that WHEN Satan is cast into the lake of fire, he CAN'T deceive anyone anymore.
If you take your verse as Satan ceasing to exist, you have basically said that Rev 20:10 is a LIE and John is a liar.

Did you what will happen to the wicked when they drink the cup of God's wrath? "They shall drink of the cup, and shalt swallow down, and they shall be as though they HAD NOT BEEN."

Speaking here in terms of living people on earth, of course.

Listen, all unbelievers will be cast into the SAME lake of fire that the beast, FP and Satan will be thrown into. And ALL OF THEM will suffer the SAME thing: "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

You either believe EVERY verse of Scripture or you don't. You cherry pick what you want, and twist it because other verses refute your flawed understanding of it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I suggest you go back and read the passage, friend, because Paul didn't say "IS", he said "AND". Of course, your fellow "immortal soul" crowd members won't point that out to you but no matter.

Paul is saying he'd rather be absent from this mortal body, skip lying in the grave dead without a body awaiting the resurrection, and go straight to heaven in his resurrection body, but he knew that wouldn't happen at his death because he himself said he wouldn't put on his "incorruptible" body until "the last trump" when Jesus comes.

Paul is sleeping in the grave "resting in peace", not wandering the streets of gold yet.

Please explain why Jesus gave a "parable" that was totally unreal and fantasy that has NO parallel in human life? Can you?

In EVERY parable that Jesus gave, there was a REALISTIC scenario that EVERYONE CAN relate to.

Except Luke 16 and the beggar and rich man. If all souls sleep until the resurrertion, Jesus' account violates EVERY criteria of all His other parables.

There is NO parallel between what Jesus told us and human life, and there would be no point in describing a scenario that CANNOT occur if all souls sleep.

No point whatsoever. The only rational and reasonable understanding is that Jesus gave us a glimpse of the after life.

 

[peldom10]

FreeGrace2 said:
Titus 2:11 says the grace of God offers salvation to everyone.

Sure. Salvation will be available during the Millennium, but given the rebellion (global) at the end, it seems no one is interested.

FreeGrace2 said:
Since there will be bodily resurrection of all unbelievers, I believe it will be their earthly body. And that will surely be destroyed in the lake of fire, leaving the soul, which is immaterial, to be tormented "day and night for ever and ever". Rev 20:10.

Well, consider this: the beast and FP will be thrown into the lake of fire in their earthly bodies.

We know there will be a literal resurrection of the unsaved. So they show up with a body. There is no reason to assume they will be given something other than what they died with. Just like the beast and FP.

1 Cor 15:48-56 was directed at believers. Therefore, it applies to believers. I see no reason to apply this passage to unbelievers.

Again, I default to the beast and FP.

Oh, and btw, what about Enoch and Elijah? They are probably the 2 Witnesses in the Trib, since they never physically died. When they are raised to life 3.5 days after their death, they rise to heaven. The Bible gives no evidence that they received their glorified bodies. We know all believers get their glorified bodies at the same event, and what will be when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

I have no problem believing that the resurrection of unbelievers will involve their physical bodies that they died with. And when they are cast into the lake of fire, it will be their physical bodies that will perish, be destroyed and annihilated. And, like the beast, FP and Satan (and all his angels) they ALL will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever". Rev 20:10 is my evidence.

Can't you believe that a soul is not a body?
A soul does not deteriorate. If so then torment forever and forever would make no sense.

 

[kleronomos]

Unbelievers will NOT see eternal life, and their resurrected bodies will be destroyed. Rev 20:10 says very clearly that those in the lake of fire will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

To be in eternal torment would require eternal life wouldn't it? or would it be eternal sleep? or eternal death but then death wouldn't be death either, would it? I am trying to follow your logic but something has to give somewhere. What you wrote above is what made me ask this question



"If all dead people sleep, then Jesus' parable would be INSANE and totally rejected as fantasy".

Do you agree we won't remember the lake of fire?

If so, what is it's purpose? Someone couldn't make themselves love God so they must pay?

WHICH brings me to another question. God created vessels for destruction. Do those go into the lake of fire to be tortured forever when they served the very purpose they were created for?

As you can see, I am really thinking about what you believe and I am really trying to understand it but most of all I am trying to see how it fits in the truth of the words of God and where the 'disconnect' is. I am starting to believe it is our lack of understanding in maybe our 'idea' of 'day and night' or forever and ever or age of ages or what torment is. I don't know. But you got me thinking. I have read over that one verse quite a few times now and it is just out of line with others that so far I can't reckon them together.


I think I just might have to lay them all out side by side and see. Thank you for continuing to answer. I know it is hard when we see something so clearly we don't understand how anyone can see it different from us. Sometimes it is so easy to see because there is nary a scripture to point to BUT here we DO have that one scripture that is straightforward, at least it seems like it to me at this time.

 

[kleronomos]

And Luke 16 destroys (annihilates) your view as well. Jesus would NEVER give a parable that is so outlandish and unreal. There would be no point at all. EVERY parable He gave could be easily identified with normal human behavior/activity.

Isn't Luke 16 about what happens after the FLESH body experiences death and not about what takes place for the 'risen' bodies some 2-3000 years later, when the lake of fire comes for Judgment Day?

 

[kleronomos]

Sure. Salvation will be available during the Millennium, but given the rebellion (global) at the end, it seems no one is interested.

Yes, but considering there will be 16 billion people, 4 billion for sure already 'saved' leaving 12 billion up in the air, sands of the sea is an easy number to come to. THIS IS ALL SPECULATION ON MY PART, but based in part on

Deuteronomy 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the LORD's portion is His people; Jacob is the lot of His inheritance.

with

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

[kleronomos]

Since there will be bodily resurrection of all unbelievers, I believe it will be their earthly body. And that will surely be destroyed in the lake of fire, leaving the soul, which is immaterial, to be tormented "day and night for ever and ever". Rev 20:10.

Wouldn't that 'soul' with out a body be the 'breathe of life'?

 

[kleronomos]

Well, consider this: the beast and FP will be thrown into the lake of fire in their earthly bodies.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?



Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Revelation 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

NO MAN is '10 kings'. 10 kings are ruling 10 different kingdoms but these 10 kings all get their instructions from the same source.

The 'beast' is a like a United Kingdoms of Satan made up of 10 countries/powers, Satan as President/king/Ruler.

It is a 'system' used to rule the rest of the world.



Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This I would agree would be a 'mans body'.

It all comes down to these are things Satan influences and uses to do his dirty work through evil spirits.
When they go into the lake, MY UNDERSTANDING is IT ENDS THE POSSIBILITY of bringing together a system 'pre release' from the pit and to use 'a false prophet' at that last time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can't you believe that a soul is not a body?

What do you mean, "can I?". Of course I do. I fully grasp Gen 2:7. God began with dirt, fashioned a body and then breathed a soul into the body, and that is when man "became a living being". Do you believe all this?

A soul does not deteriorate.

The Bible calls that "imperishable". I like that word.

If so then torment forever and forever would make no sense.

Please go complain to the Apostle John who wrote Rev 20:10 which describes the fate of those who will be cast into the lake of fire.

What doesn't make sense from the soul sleepers and annihilators is that Jesus made up a parable that has ZERO relevance to real life.

Yeah, sure. The account of a beggar and rich man who died is an account of life in the after life.

I don't care who doesn't want to believe that, but the alternative, that Jesus simply made up a parable without any reference to reality is far worse.

Plus the mention of "souls in heaven".

I'm very comfortable with the evidence I know in the Bible.

What you guys call "evidence" simply is a gross misread and actually contradicts the evidence in the Bible.

 

[kleronomos]

We know all believers get their glorified bodies at the same event, and what will be when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

No we don't all know that. I believe there are 'white robes' given to those in heaven. I know that flesh and blood can't exist there (blood is the life of the flesh on earth) nor will it be able to exist when heaven comes to earth. They are two different 'realms' one now seen, the other soon to take over. The Lord and the angels from heaven are coming to earth. THAT changes everything. That is why these are the LAST DAYS. Once Christ returns, the latter and last days are over and a New Day has begun. ALL the 'elements' rudiments are burned up. Life is going to be completely different from what it is now.. There will no longer be theses big companies and countries and wealthy people around. THEY don't get to take anything with them. They don't get to profit off of others work anymore.





2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS ON THE LORDS DAY who do you see as surviving that?




THIS IS AT THE END OF THE LORDS DAY - GWTJ
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



and BECAUSE DEATH CAN BE ON OUR DOORSTEP AT ANY MOMENT, LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, COMPLETELY UNEXPECTED

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.



15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


I am aware I have gone off topic a little bit but necessary to make the point.

 

[John146]

How big is Abraham's bosom that it can simultaneously embrace all righteous dead that have ever died? Abraham would have had to be about a 10 miles tall and his bosom 3 miles wide, right?

("Abraham's bosom" is a symbol in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus which must be interpreted to get its true meaning).

Don't question God, just believe scripture. When you don't take the Bible literally, you can make it say anything you want. Abraham's bosom was an actual place during the OT until Jesus led those in captivity free. Btw, the heart of the earth is a very large place.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To be in eternal torment would require eternal life wouldn't it?

Not the way the Bible uses "eternal life".

1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

God IS eternal life. And He gives His life to those who believe in His Son. No one else.

So, to answer your comment, instead of "eternal life", which is God's life, unbelievers will have unending life, or never ending life.

or would it be eternal sleep?

Is there a verse that speaks of eternal sleep?

or eternal death but then death wouldn't be death either, would it? I am trying to follow your logic but something has to give somewhere. What you wrote above is what made me ask this question

Hopefully, my answers above will clarify. If not, fire away.

"If all dead people sleep, then Jesus' parable would be INSANE and totally rejected as fantasy".

Do you agree we won't remember the lake of fire?

If annihilation is true, then there won't even be a "we" or a "you" or a "me", as unbelievers.

It seems so easy and simple. If one ceases to exist, there is nothing to feel, suffer, etc. That cannot be a punishment. In fact, that would be a RELIEF of suffering.

Don't you know that people in severe pain beg to be killed, thinking that would end their suffering? Seems to be a universal idea.

If so, what is it's purpose? Someone couldn't make themselves love God so they must pay?

Sorry, I don't understand your question. Purpose of what? the LoF? That was initially created for the devil and his angels. Matt 25:41. However, with the creation of us mortals, those who reject or simply don't receive the free gift of eternal life aren't qualified to live with God, who IS eternal life, and therefore, the only other location in eternity will be the LoF.

No one "pays for not loving God". And no one "pays" anything anyway. Since Jesus Christ went to the cross for everyone, and PAID the debt of everyone, there is no debt remaining.

People go to the LoF for only 1 reason. They don't have eternal life. So they must reside where the devil will reside forever and ever.

WHICH brings me to another question. God created vessels for destruction. Do those go into the lake of fire to be tortured forever when they served the very purpose they were created for?

Sorry, big error here. Rom 9:22 does NOT say "created". There are translations that error by translating the word that way. Some translations use the same word in v.22 and v.23. But they are different words.

v.22 "created/prepared" is 'katartizo':
2675 katartízō (from 2596 /katá, "according to, down," intensifying artizō, "to adjust," which is derived from 739 /ártios, "properly adjusted") – properly, exactly fit (adjust) to be in good working order, i.e. adjusted exactly "down" to fully function.

This word is found in the gospels describing some disciples "mending their nets".

So the word means to "mend", or "fix" or "adjust". My lexicon has "adjust to fit". Kinda like "retrofit".

v.23 - "prepared in advance" is:
proetoimazó: to prepare before
Original Word: προετοιμάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proetoimazó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-et-oy-mad'-zo)
Definition: to prepare before
Usage: I prepare or appoint beforehand, predestine.

So, no one is prepared for destruction. No one is created for destruction. No one is appointed for destruction.

Everyone who is destroyed has to be adjusted to fit.

As you can see, I am really thinking about what you believe and I am really trying to understand it but most of all I am trying to see how it fits in the truth of the words of God and where the 'disconnect' is.

I appreciate this, as most posters seem to be stuck on their own ideas and don't even give opposing views a glance.

I am starting to believe it is our lack of understanding in maybe our 'idea' of 'day and night' or forever and ever or age of ages or what torment is.

Well, clearly there is a difference in our understanding of what words mean. Can you accept that Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man is an account of the afterlife rather than a parable? That would be a starting point.

Since such a parable violates the reality of soul sleep, one has to ask themselves WHY Jesus would make up such a parable, that has no human life counterpart. Please do that.

But you got me thinking. I have read over that one verse quite a few times now and it is just out of line with others that so far I can't reckon them together.

Which verse again? I would begin with Luke 16. You have to figure out WHY Jesus would make up a parable that has no reality counterpart. So no one could relate to it. Yet, EVERY other parable DOES have a reality counterpart and everyone can relate to them.

I think I just might have to lay them all out side by side and see. Thank you for continuing to answer.

My pleasure. Thanks for keep asking.

I know it is hard when we see something so clearly we don't understand how anyone can see it different from us. Sometimes it is so easy to see because there is nary a scripture to point to BUT here we DO have that one scripture that is straightforward, at least it seems like it to me at this time.

Right. For me, the "straightforward" Scripture is the account of Abraham's bosom with Lazarus and the rich man. I start there, and progress to other Scriptures.

I also understand the Bible's use of "dead" to be a euphemism for physical death in certain passages. In other passages, it is used of Abraham when he was "past age" or impotent. iow, sexually dead. Doesn't mean his sex organ was sleeping, it just wasn't working.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Isn't Luke 16 about what happens after the FLESH body experiences death and not about what takes place for the 'risen' bodies some 2-3000 years later, when the lake of fire comes for Judgment Day?

Yes!! The text says that Lazarus died and was carried by angels to Abraham's side. (I believe that believers will be escorted to heaven when they die, and angels will take unbelievers to Hades to await the GWT)

If this was just a parable, why would Jesus make up something that has no relevance to reality and no one could relate to?

What makes perfect sense to me is that Jesus was giving us a glimpse of the afterlife in the OT.

Every soul went to Hades, believers to Paradise (as Jesus told the thief) and unbelievers to Torments, and we see both compartments in the account Jesus gave us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. Salvation will be available during the Millennium, but given the rebellion (global) at the end, it seems no one is interested.

Yes, but considering there will be 16 billion people, 4 billion for sure already 'saved' leaving 12 billion up in the air, sands of the sea is an easy number to come to. THIS IS ALL SPECULATION ON MY PART, but based in part on

Deuteronomy 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the LORD's portion is His people; Jacob is the lot of His inheritance.

with

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

It's easy to get confused with verses from the OT and trying to reconcile them with specific NT verses.

What I've read in Revelation is that the 7 year period of the Tribulation will kill about 1/2 of the worlds' current population during the Trib. Rev 6:8 (1/4) and 9:15 (1/3). I did the math, and that adds up to 1/2 of the population. So this isn't speculation.

This means, at current numbers, about 3.5 billion unbelievers will survive the Tribulation and enter the millennial kingdom.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Since there will be bodily resurrection of all unbelievers, I believe it will be their earthly body. And that will surely be destroyed in the lake of fire, leaving the soul, which is immaterial, to be tormented "day and night for ever and ever". Rev 20:10.

Wouldn't that 'soul' with out a body be the 'breathe of life'?

Terminology seems to be a problem. In Gen 2:7, yes, but since then, the Bible uses the terms "soul" or "spirit" for the immaterial part of man. I see them differently, but there is some overlap in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, consider this: the beast and FP will be thrown into the lake of fire in their earthly bodies.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Revelation 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

NO MAN is '10 kings'. 10 kings are ruling 10 different kingdoms but these 10 kings all get their instructions from the same source.

The 'beast' is a like a United Kingdoms of Satan made up of 10 countries/powers, Satan as President/king/Ruler.

It is a 'system' used to rule the rest of the world.

Some people understand the beast to be a system, and others a human being. I see it as the latter. I believe both the beast and FP are human beings.

How would God throw a "system" into the LoF? I do see how He would throw a human being in there.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This I would agree would be a 'mans body'.

It all comes down to these are things Satan influences and uses to do his dirty work through evil spirits.
When they go into the lake, MY UNDERSTANDING is IT ENDS THE POSSIBILITY of bringing together a system 'pre release' from the pit and to use 'a false prophet' at that last time.

MATT 25:41 says the LoF will be for the devil and his angels (fallen). So, yes.

 

[kleronomos]

What do you mean, "can I?". Of course I do. I fully grasp Gen 2:7. God began with dirt, fashioned a body and then breathed a soul into the body, and that is when man "became a living being". Do you believe all this?


The Bible calls that "imperishable". I like that word.


Please go complain to the Apostle John who wrote Rev 20:10 which describes the fate of those who will be cast into the lake of fire.

What doesn't make sense from the soul sleepers and annihilators is that Jesus made up a parable that has ZERO relevance to real life.

Yeah, sure. The account of a beggar and rich man who died is an account of life in the after life.

I don't care who doesn't want to believe that, but the alternative, that Jesus simply made up a parable without any reference to reality is far worse.

Plus the mention of "souls in heaven".

I'm very comfortable with the evidence I know in the Bible.

What you guys call "evidence" simply is a gross misread and actually contradicts the evidence in the Bible.

Usually this is where the conversations begin to end. We start to bring in deeper truths and the 'shut down' begins with anger and no longer wanting to discuss before it has been said repeatedly before and on it goes. So maybe not now. I understand. But maybe someday...no problem, just don't respond. It would sure be nice to have it end friendly once though...

Gen 2:7
Yes, I believe that this is an example of when man became a 'living' 'being' on the earth, made from the dust of the earth. I believe there is a lot more to it than that also.

I personally don't believe in 'sleep'. I believe in life and death and those are both experiences that we feel now and will be felt after. They are both conscious experiences just in different bodies. One with God, one without

I like that WHAT IS WRITTEN being so important to be seen and understood. That will help.



Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

SO ALL THOSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DEVOURED. THEY HAVE BEEN JUDGED, GONE.
2719. katesthió
Strong's Concordance
katesthió: to eat up
Original Word: κατεσθίω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katesthió
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-es-thee'-o)
Definition: to eat up
Usage: I eat up, eat till it is finished, devour, squander, annoy, injure.
HELPS Word-studies
2719 katesthíō (from 2596 /katá, "down," intensifying 2068 /esthíō, "eat") – properly, eat all the way down; (figuratively) utterly devour, leaving nothing; ferociously consume all the way down, i.e. with a rapacious, voracious appetite – leaving only ruination, without hope of recovery (or even remains).



Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

THIS LAKE is the lake of fire AND BRIMSTONE. NOT ONE SOUL HAS BEEN PUT INTO THIS LAKE. Unless I missed a verse somewhere. If so please let me know.


AND THEN COMES

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

(ALL THE 'NATIONs' the 'unbelievers, unsaved, chose death, the follow after Satan, the mystery of iniquity crowd, the synagogue of Satan, the of your father the devil, gone, burnt up, destroyed, consumed')

LEAVING those who did not 'compass the saints'

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Before death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, they deliver up the dead they were holding

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

AND some who were dead 'and the dead lived not for the 1000 years', who had been SPIRITUALLY dead for the Lords Day but had 'come to faith', had not followed after Satan, had some good works they came to life, received their immortality, their LIVING STATUS and so were no longer dead.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

WHAT LAKE WERE THEY NOT CAST INTO? THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, THE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER LAKE.


They were cast into the lake of fire lake, the one that will pass away.


THOSE ARE THE WORDS WRITTEN. They are not confusing. They are straight forward. We are instructed to rightly divide. I believe there are TWO lakes that are mentioned. I BELIEVE the lake for SATAN is different than the lake for the individual. I believe God deals with The Adversary differently and that is the reason for the two. That is what I believe.

I understand you do not believe as I do but we BELIEVE in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Son of God and PRAISE the LORD for that.