Does Acts 2:38 mean we have to be baptized to get into Heaven? -Debate

[kennethcadwell]

Because you teach faith + works = salvation and that is false

Faith = salvation without WORKS
Saved will do Work(s)

This is what you cannot grasp......... Galatians 1, 3

ARE YOU SO FOOLISH having BEGUN in the SPIRIT are YOU NOW MADE COMPLETE by the FLESH<--which is WORKS

Did you RECIEVE the SPIRIT by the WORKS OF THE LAW, or by the HEARING of FAITH?

He the BELIEVETH HATH EVERLASTING LIFE<-----everlasting means exactly that..>EVERLASTING, ETERNAL as it does not say TEMPORY PARTIAL ALMOST ETERNAL LIFE UNLESS YOU SIN, but ETERNAL!

Wrong, I grasp it just fine.
James spends his whole epistle showing that faith alone does not save anybody. He says over and over again faith without works is dead.
He uses the body without the spirit is dead as an example. Your body can not function and be alive if your spirit does not reside in it, it would be just a dead lump of flesh and bones. Same with your faith, if you don't have righteous works of love stem from it, then your faith is dead and worthless and does not lead to salvation.

Not even Jesus taught faith alone saves, He said he who comes to Him hears what He says and then goes and does it. Those are who have faith in Him, not those who just hear only. Belief in Him is not a dead mental or verbal acceptance with no action to follow.
Jesus says if you call me Lord and do not do the things I say, I am not your Lord......

 

[dcontroversal]

Wrong, I grasp it just fine.
James spends his whole epistle showing that faith alone does not save anybody. He says over and over again faith without works is dead.
He uses the body without the spirit is dead as an example. Your body can not function and be alive if your spirit does not reside in it, it would be just a dead lump of flesh and bones. Same with your faith, if you don't have righteous works of love stem from it, then your faith is dead and worthless and does not lead to salvation.

Not even Jesus taught faith alone saves, He said he who comes to Him hears what He says and then goes and does it. Those are who have faith in Him, not those who just hear only. Belief in Him is not a dead mental or verbal acceptance with no action to follow.
Jesus says if you call me Lord and do not do the things I say, I am not your Lord......

You still don't understand that James is speaking from the perspective of HOW CAN A MAN SEE YOUR FAITH.......and you are still trusting into YOUR WORKS over the FAITH OF JESUS......

JESUS SAID IF YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.....and YOUR view of JAMES is contradicted BY PAUL in ROMANS, GALATIANS, Titus, Ephesians and by JOHN in JOHN, 1st JOHN so.....

You never did answer my question about how long do you have to repent before you loose your salvation....so which office are you running for?

 

[dcontroversal]

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

So, how long do you have Kenneth before you are separated and lost again after you sin....1 second, 10 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes, maybe a day?

Still waiting on a straight answer

 

[kennethcadwell]

[h=1]I know this thread is about baptism, but I wanted to post this chapter because there are still some out there that want to continue to say being saved/salvation is a completed work. Something that is done immediately in a believers life, this is not what the Lord Jesus said when He commissioned the Apostles/disciples out to preach the gospel.


Matthew 10[/h][h=3]The Twelve Apostles[/h]10 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them powerover unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was[a]Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite,[b] and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
[h=3]Sending Out the Twelve[/h]5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,[c] cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for yourjourney, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

( He first told them in the first part of this chapter what things to do while preaching the good news of the gospel )
[h=3]
Persecutions Are Coming[/h]16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak;20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub,[d] how much more will they call those of his household!26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.

( Then here in the above He tells them what dangers to expect while preaching, and only if they stay firm and endure all these will they be saved. Not saved first. )


[h=3]Jesus Teaches the Fear of God[/h]27 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
[h=3]Confess Christ Before Men[/h]32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
[h=3]Christ Brings Division[/h]34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
[h=3]A Cup of Cold Water[/h]40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”

( Then He finishes off this chapter with a warning to fear God, if you are disobedient to Him by not following and doing His will in your life; you have to walking in love, following His commands, keep His teaching. )

 

[kote]

I personally believe one can accept Christ by believing in Him, turning from our sin, and confessing His name to others. In other words: believe, repent, confess. Then God commands that you then be baptized to show you have accepted him. I personally left the Church of Christ this year and now attend a Baptist Church. The reason being is that I read in the Bible in Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 2:8, Rom. 5:1, Rom. 3:24, and there are many other verses that tell us that we are saved/justified through our faith in Jesus Christ. Read Acts 10:43 as well as Acts 2:38. You will see that in Acts 10:43, Peter never mentioned baptism when he was speaking to Cornelius about Jesus Christ. "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." As you can see it is clear that baptism is not essential for salvation. Anyone is welcome to comment/debate on this topic.

brother I respect your point of view, but jesus himself said in mark 16:16 "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

So, how long do you have Kenneth before you are separated and lost again after you sin....1 second, 10 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes, maybe a day?

Still waiting on a straight answer

I have given you a straight answer three times now, here it goes a fourth time in bold;

If you do not repent and ask forgiveness of that sin, you are separated from God.
Willful sin is enmity to God, against Him. Only repented and forgiven sins are wiped away.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You still don't understand that James is speaking from the perspective of HOW CAN A MAN SEE YOUR FAITH.......and you are still trusting into YOUR WORKS over the FAITH OF JESUS......

JESUS SAID IF YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.....and YOUR view of JAMES is contradicted BY PAUL in ROMANS, GALATIANS, Titus, Ephesians and by JOHN in JOHN, 1st JOHN so.....

You never did answer my question about how long do you have to repent before you loose your salvation....so which office are you running for?

How many times do I have to show you what Jesus said what believing in Him means ????

Lord Jesus said you have to be a hearer and a doer of His word, not a hearer only. He says if you do not do, you do not believe in Him.

 

[Mitspa]

Lol. I labor more abundantly than they all all yet not I but the grace of God that is with me.

 

[Mitspa]

Right just like Rahab the harlot our faith cannot be polluted by selfrighteousness. For the law is not of faith.

 

[Mitspa]

Christ sent me not to baptise but the preach the gospel. Clearly baptism is not the gospel but a servant to its truth.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have given you a straight answer three times now, here it goes a fourth time in bold;

If you do not repent and ask forgiveness of that sin, you are separated from God.
Willful sin is enmity to God, against Him. Only repented and forgiven sins are wiped away.

SIN is SIN and you are mincing words.......so if you sin you immediately LOOSE YOUR SALVATION......is that what you are saying?

 

[dcontroversal]

How many times do I have to show you what Jesus said what believing in Him means ????

Lord Jesus said you have to be a hearer and a doer of His word, not a hearer only. He says if you do not do, you do not believe in Him.

Show me the verse where JESUS uses the exact words you quote? and answer post 591

 

[kennethcadwell]

What Paul said about baptism, through immersion in water


Romans 6:3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.



What Peter says about baptism, through immersion in water


1 Peter 3:21 The like figure where unto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


This goes along with the great commission command that baptism through immersion in water is being baptized into the death and resurrection of the Lord for the purpose to be brought into discipleship.......
Notice Peter says baptism is still part that saves us...

 

[Mitspa]

clearly Paul did not see baptism as the gospel but as a secondary issue to the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

Truly, Truly, I say unto you, HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME hath everlasting LIFE <---NO where does Jesus say hear and DO to have everlasting life......HE said YOU believe you have everlasting life......Just like Satan in the garden, you guys ADD to the words of the LORD which makes who the deceivers?

Hath=to hold, to possess, possessed with

 

[dcontroversal]

What Peter says about baptism, through immersion in water


1 Peter 3:21 The like figure where unto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


This goes along with the great commission command that baptism through immersion in water is being baptized into the death and resurrection of the Lord for the purpose to be brought into discipleship.......
Notice Peter says baptism is still part that saves us...

Kenneth, POST the GREEK definitions of LIKE FIGURE and open your eyes to the truth about BAPTISM!

 

[dcontroversal]

Like Figure

Like=antitupon-->representative, antitype, corresponding to
Figure=imagine that..same word->representative, antitype, corresponding to

BAPTISM is REPRESENTATIVE of SOMETHING ALREADY POSSESSED.......I.E> FAITH into the death, burial and RESURRECTION of JESUS and the death of the OLD MAN and RISING a NEW CREATION in CHRIST JESUS based UPON FAITH.....

IT pleased GOD by the FOOLISHNESS of preaching to SAVE them that BELIEVE....

It is foolish to YOU and your WATER BUDDIES that someone can be SAVED by believing the PREACHING of the CROSS for total salvation....

HE THAT BELIEVETH on me HATH everlasting LIFE...PERIOD!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Show me the verse where JESUS uses the exact words you quote? and answer post 591

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
( Have to follow for salvation, for this is part of believing in Him. )

John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
( Him saying if you obey the greatest command, you will obey the rest of His commands. )

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
( Here Jesus says you have to be a hearer and a doer, if you are hearer only, and not a doer your fall and ruin will be great. )


Luke 12:45-48
45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

( Here you have the Lord talking about a disobedient servant, if He was come today and catches you not doing what He has told you to do then you will be thrown out with the unbelievers in the lake of fire for disobedience. )

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is the one Jesus said you could receive:

Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

The one done by His disciples, the one done by His disciple Philip here :

Acts 8:38 (NKJV) So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

When did the Eunuch rejoice? after he believed? or after he was water baptized? :

Acts 8:39 (NKJV) Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

The one Peter told Cornelius to do AFTER they were baptized by the HS in Acts 10:

Acts 10:47 (NKJV) "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Now Peter had the Spirit guiding him, why would Peter have Cornelius be baptized with a second baptism knowing he was just baptized with the HS unless Peter knew the baptism of the HS never saved anyone? unless he knew the HS baptism was NOT the baptism of Eph. 4:5.

yet more proof you need to go back to school and learn some language skills.

Jesus did not tell or command that baptism, he commanded us to DO that baptism, there is a huge difference between receiving and doing.

in fact he not only told us to do this work of righteousness, he also commanded us to perform this act of righteousness (make disciples. baptize THEM)

being baptized with the spirit is not a command, or a work we can do. it is something which GOD DOES TO YOU.

again, go and learn some language skills, then come back and talk, maybe then we can actually have an adult conversation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth, POST the GREEK definitions of LIKE FIGURE and open your eyes to the truth about BAPTISM!

Like Figure

Like=antitupon-->representative, antitype, corresponding to
Figure=imagine that..same word->representative, antitype, corresponding to

BAPTISM is REPRESENTATIVE of SOMETHING ALREADY POSSESSED.......I.E> FAITH into the death, burial and RESURRECTION of JESUS and the death of the OLD MAN and RISING a NEW CREATION in CHRIST JESUS based UPON FAITH.....

IT pleased GOD by the FOOLISHNESS of preaching to SAVE them that BELIEVE....

It is foolish to YOU and your WATER BUDDIES that someone can be SAVED by believing the PREACHING of the CROSS for total salvation....

HE THAT BELIEVETH on me HATH everlasting LIFE...PERIOD!

I understand your educational knowledge that you are trying to interject here, but we can go clearly to scripture to see what Peter is saying here in 1 Peter 3.
He is comparing the baptism through immersion in water, to the water that saved Noah and his family from the evil disobedient world of that time. Verse 20 says;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.