Does church mean a lot to you?

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Hamilton

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
142
44
28
#61
So answer my questions to you.
How are pastors and teachers selected in your local church?
Who decides how the money is spent in you local church?
Are you a member/part of a local church?
Where is your proof that God is among your congregation?
From the Scripture verses that I quoted, can you see a pattern? Holy Spirit gifts, input by the Holy Spirit, God manifesting to persons with higher gifts of the Spirit what really is in the heart of a person, and even if the person is fit for office according to God... does that seem to be the Biblical model for doing ministry in God's church?

Real story: a preacher in a cessationist church was preaching. All of a sudden he gets a message (supposedly from the H.S.) that foul play was happening in the congregation by a group within it.

Investigation ensued, lo and behold, there was foul play. How did that happen? the preacher was heavy into holiness, and all of a sudden something related to higher gifts of the H.S. bestowed to believers seem to enter the scene.

Can that happen in our times, the whole deal seems legit because the Church was professing cessationism, so they were not interested in putting up a show.

Food for thought.
 

Hamilton

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
142
44
28
#62
question no.3 is a killer
LOL, we go back to the definition problem: what is church? a building run by a denomination with systems and subsystems, or is it a gathering of believers to worship and exalt Jesus Christ?
 

Hamilton

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
142
44
28
#63
So are you hiding now?
Always ready to condemn the way others do things but will not inform us how these things are done in your local church.
Some of us have to work for a living you know.

If there is a fake of something, it usually means that somewhere there must be a genuine.

Have you visited ever a Charismatic church (of good standing), and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are working (including the higher ones).

If you ever do, many of your questions will be answered.

I met once a high ranking official of a cessationist mission oriented denomination, who told me they had received strict orders to have nothing to do with pentecostals (and I assume that included charismatics), and no real reason for it was given.

After spending time in some project, he realized that charismatics were not the monsters they were portrayed as in their denomination.

Man made systems influence members in strange ways, many of them not Biblical.

One assumption of modern life, is that many religious persons actually want to know and are interested in finding the truth... God's true, and that includes His reality, His workings, etc.

Can someone that does not explore, interact, research, and the like eventually find the truth? maybe, but is risky to say that absolute truth has been found if different groups, traditions, etc. have not been explored.

To me church is important, but any single one that restricts interaction with other groups makes me suspicious of it.

Luke 8:16 No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.

If you have the light from the Holy Spirt, are you afraid of visiting other groups? should you?

The Bible (which many groups pay lip service to) is clearly written from a supernatural point of view:

Holy Spirit coming down to dwell even atop the author and executor of the faith Jesus, unclean spirits being expelled from Magdalene before she could become a disciple, the H.S. giving believers instructions of what to do, who to select, where to avoid going, etc.

Were those the inventions of superstitious ancient peasants unscientific in their worldview, or is the Bible a faithful record of God's reality (which is true and ultimate), and that is supernatural from our point of view because we are living in a fallen region of the Kingdom?

You have to make up your mind with respect these kind of things before you embark in a quest for truth, otherwise, wrong preconceptions will lead you to wrong conclusions.

Kind regards.
 

Hamilton

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
142
44
28
#64
John 20 give us the time of discovery, not the time of resurrection. Christ was buried just before sundown and was resurrected just before sundown. Three full days/nights later. Corinthians collecting money? What does that have to do with worship?

Jesus observing the Sabbath:
Mark 6:2 "And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?"


Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read."

The Apostles observing the Sabbath:
Acts 13:14 "But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down."


Acts 13:27 "For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him."

Acts 13:42 "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." :)

I do get your point Christ did appear to the Apostles on Sunday. Now what really happened, is that the Apostles were most likely expelled from Synagogues because they preached Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior.

So even if they wanted to, they could most probably not go to the Synagogue.

The collecting of money on the first day, has been interpreted by some that the service day became Sunday. The context excludes it meaning that Paul was going to go to each believer's home to get the offering, so most probably it was collected at the place of gathering for worship that day.

So who is the Lord of Sabbath? we all agree Jesus Christ is, so what is the actual deal with Jesus and worship of the Father?

Jesus Christ became the New Temple of God, where the fullness of Deity dwells bodily, and did He say something about rest?

Matthew 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

When did the toil of humans begin? when the Holy Spirit left Adam and Eve after transgression of course. So when will the toil (spiritual) end? when Jesus baptizes the believer with the Holy Spirit (reestablishing the koinonia with the Father).

1 Corinthians 12:1). For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Is the teaching in the Synagogue in line with the truth that Jesus is the Son of God, the real Messiah, and the only way to the Father, and thus our Lord and Savior?

Of course not, so no true Christian has anything to do in any Synagogue, Saturday or not.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Kind regards.
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
1,397
1,015
113
#65
Some of us have to work for a living you know.

If there is a fake of something, it usually means that somewhere there must be a genuine.

Have you visited ever a Charismatic church (of good standing), and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are working (including the higher ones).

If you ever do, many of your questions will be answered.

I met once a high ranking official of a cessationist mission oriented denomination, who told me they had received strict orders to have nothing to do with pentecostals (and I assume that included charismatics), and no real reason for it was given.

After spending time in some project, he realized that charismatics were not the monsters they were portrayed as in their denomination.

Man made systems influence members in strange ways, many of them not Biblical.

One assumption of modern life, is that many religious persons actually want to know and are interested in finding the truth... God's true, and that includes His reality, His workings, etc.

Can someone that does not explore, interact, research, and the like eventually find the truth? maybe, but is risky to say that absolute truth has been found if different groups, traditions, etc. have not been explored.

To me church is important, but any single one that restricts interaction with other groups makes me suspicious of it.

Luke 8:16 No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.

If you have the light from the Holy Spirt, are you afraid of visiting other groups? should you?

The Bible (which many groups pay lip service to) is clearly written from a supernatural point of view:

Holy Spirit coming down to dwell even atop the author and executor of the faith Jesus, unclean spirits being expelled from Magdalene before she could become a disciple, the H.S. giving believers instructions of what to do, who to select, where to avoid going, etc.

Were those the inventions of superstitious ancient peasants unscientific in their worldview, or is the Bible a faithful record of God's reality (which is true and ultimate), and that is supernatural from our point of view because we are living in a fallen region of the Kingdom?

You have to make up your mind with respect these kind of things before you embark in a quest for truth, otherwise, wrong preconceptions will lead you to wrong conclusions.

Kind regards.
So you refuse to answer. Just ramble on and on and condemn the way local churches conduct the Lord's work
So be it.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
5,406
377
83
#66
Church has never been very important to me. I never felt that much about it. I never really cared about what was said or the people there or anything. I met someone a long time ago though who was really attached to their church and how things were with their church. Is that normal?
Maybe because your view of church is for your consumption, not as a blessing to others.
Church is there to make connections, to be blessed by others and to be a blessing to others and to be equipped.

I know how you feel though, I've had periods like that, and still do at times but I have to remember most importantly that I'm not there for purely for myself.

If we don't make connections, we can't share burdens as commanded too.

We can feel at times that we don't need others but that's a deception, because others need us.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
299
83
#67
I see a lot of talk here about church as a place to go and receive. Then you decide whether you like it or not.
That is not what church is supposed to be. We are the church. We gather to be with one another.
We find our place in the body of Christ. We become a part. The church is incomplete without us.
 

Poinsetta

Well-known member
Nov 24, 2018
4,758
3,502
113
#68
Maybe because your view of church is for your consumption, not as a blessing to others.
Church is there to make connections, to be blessed by others and to be a blessing to others and to be equipped.

I know how you feel though, I've had periods like that, and still do at times but I have to remember most importantly that I'm not there for purely for myself.

If we don't make connections, we can't share burdens as commanded too.

We can feel at times that we don't need others but that's a deception, because others need us.
I wish all this were true. Maybe I’ve got more to learn. And don’t use the name in vain. That’s it.
 

Hamilton

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
142
44
28
#69
So you refuse to answer. Just ramble on and on and condemn the way local churches conduct the Lord's work
So be it.
I am surprised by your attitude. Note that I clearly said it seemed like the Church you describe is a man driven organization. I then proceeded to quote Scriptures to compare, and waited for your clarifications. All you did then: mischaracterize me as criticizing your Church (which I can't because I do not know it), started asking me questions without explicitly saying why (what is the intention? imprecatory praying, etc.).

Just forget everything I said, like if it was never addressed to you.

Kind regards.
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
1,397
1,015
113
#70
I am surprised by your attitude. Note that I clearly said it seemed like the Church you describe is a man driven organization. I then proceeded to quote Scriptures to compare, and waited for your clarifications. All you did then: mischaracterize me as criticizing your Church (which I can't because I do not know it), started asking me questions without explicitly saying why (what is the intention? imprecatory praying, etc.).

Just forget everything I said, like if it was never addressed to you.

Kind regards.
I was surprised at your attitude.
You were very quick judge the church I am a member of as "a man driven organization".
You clearly implied by that and other statements that we left God out in our slecting of people who serve in the office of pastor and teacher and the missionaries we supported.
You also implied that each member having a voice and vote in such matters was worldly..
I asked you how your church dealt with such matters.
If the way we do this is so wrong in your opinion, surely you can set us strait by telling us how your church chooses pastors, teachers and missionaries and who the money is to be spent.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,140
662
113
#71
Hi Blik: the second paragraph brings to limelight some interesting concepts.

Does Christianity have rituals of other kind? Some charismatic authors describe a change in priestly duties from the temple (original) to our very body as the New Temple (body of Christ). They say that when we received the Holy Spirit it was as receiving Holy Fire (parallel the one received in OT), and that we are to keep that fire aflame (through devotions, study, loving the neighbor, worshiping in spirit and truth, etc.).

So we can say that now our Christian life has a lot of spiritual rituals: crucify our will not aligned with God's will, pray continuously for all the saints and the Church, and persons in position of authority, confess to God our trespasses, pardon trespasses that people do to us, hope for the best, have faith, intercede for the lost, use our God given spiritual gifts to expand the kingdom, etc.

If the priesthood of all believers is a valid concept, we do have to be involved in a whole bunch of spiritual processes that can be seen in a way as rituals.

Any thoughts?
We can get so caught up in words, can't we? Like "ritual". Jesus condemned a Pharisees public prayer as a ritual not a prayer, yet our baptism requires a water ritual and is a source of power.

Todays churches have so many rituals or holidays taken from how pagan people lived so much of our world and worship has pagan rather than Christian roots.

I am isolated even from church through family disunity, age, and infirmities. Yet I am much closer to God for I spend many hours studying and in worship. My studies exclude any man doctrines and consciously keep strictly to scripture and history. I test everything as much as possible for facts, not theory.

I have discovered so many church held doctrines that are not from scripture that much of church seems a mockery to me.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
299
83
#72
We can get so caught up in words, can't we? Like "ritual". Jesus condemned a Pharisees public prayer as a ritual not a prayer, yet our baptism requires a water ritual and is a source of power.

Todays churches have so many rituals or holidays taken from how pagan people lived so much of our world and worship has pagan rather than Christian roots.

I am isolated even from church through family disunity, age, and infirmities. Yet I am much closer to God for I spend many hours studying and in worship. My studies exclude any man doctrines and consciously keep strictly to scripture and history. I test everything as much as possible for facts, not theory.

I have discovered so many church held doctrines that are not from scripture that much of church seems a mockery to me.
Jesus said he would build his church. Do you believe he has failed?
Either way, where is the evidence?
 

melita916

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2011
9,936
2,067
113
#73
Good morning, friends! Husband and I are up and getting ready to go to music practice at our local congregation. Practice is from 8 to 9. Then we all hang out til service starts at 10 :)
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
299
83
#74
Good morning, friends! Husband and I are up and getting ready to go to music practice at our local congregation. Practice is from 8 to 9. Then we all hang out til service starts at 10 :)
Have a great worship time. I pray that Spirit moves mightily in your midst.
I am off this week. I usually am part of the worship team. I would be almost there by now. So. I'm having a relaxed morning.
I like your signature scripture.

"I will sing to the Lord for He has been good to me." -Psalm 13:6
 

melita916

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2011
9,936
2,067
113
#75
Have a great worship time. I pray that Spirit moves mightily in your midst.
I am off this week. I usually am part of the worship team. I would be almost there by now. So. I'm having a relaxed morning.
I like your signature scripture.

"I will sing to the Lord for He has been good to me." -Psalm 13:6
Thank you! I’ve taken that verse as my theme verse I say. Singing is my favorite.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,837
2,208
113
#76
Does the church mean a lot to you?
Yes because Jesus gave his life for it. He loves the church as its his bride. Which means we are his bride and we are loved cos we are a part of it as members.

You might not know it now but its hard to be a christian all on your ownsome. Can you baptise youself? Can you just pray for yourself only? Who are you going to share the Lords supper with, just yourself? How can anyone part of a choir, if you just singing solo? And fellowship, well, can you just fellowship by yourself? JEsus wasnt doing all these miracles by himself neither he had twelve disciples come be his buddies and help him.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,140
662
113
#77
Jesus said he would build his church. Do you believe he has failed?
Either way, where is the evidence?
Trace how mythology is part of everyday life. Christmas trees, the names of the days of the week, not one of our holidays are ones God ordered but are Christianized pagan ones, the church promotes man made theories of God like the OT promotes law rather than grace, or God decided to take back anything God promised Jews. God promotes all humans as one and God as one but gentiles have separated Christ from God in many instances. The church has gone a long ways from understanding the Jewish race and how we are told to regard them. Not long ago it was OK to kill them, even, Luther a great church leader said so. God teaches discipline but there is no teaching of discipline in the church. God wants His church to be for people honoring the two is one concept of marriage the church is for evangelism and tolerance. I could go on and on.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,140
662
113
#78
Does the church mean a lot to you?
Yes because Jesus gave his life for it. He loves the church as its his bride. Which means we are his bride and we are loved cos we are a part of it as members.

You might not know it now but its hard to be a christian all on your ownsome. Can you baptise youself? Can you just pray for yourself only? Who are you going to share the Lords supper with, just yourself? How can anyone part of a choir, if you just singing solo? And fellowship, well, can you just fellowship by yourself? JEsus wasnt doing all these miracles by himself neither he had twelve disciples come be his buddies and help him.
I post my disappointments in the church, but you go girl go!! What would we do without the church.

In the old west, when the church came into a new town the entire town turned from a frightening place to live to a fine place to live.
 

Hamilton

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
142
44
28
#79
I was surprised at your attitude.
You were very quick judge the church I am a member of as "a man driven organization".
You clearly implied by that and other statements that we left God out in our slecting of people who serve in the office of pastor and teacher and the missionaries we supported.
You also implied that each member having a voice and vote in such matters was worldly..
I asked you how your church dealt with such matters.
If the way we do this is so wrong in your opinion, surely you can set us strait by telling us how your church chooses pastors, teachers and missionaries and who the money is to be spent.
Negative, I said it seemed like a man driven one. And waited for your clarification.

You make it seem like members decide, and do not acknowledge how God's input is taken into consideration.

Democracy does not equal godly decisions. If the key player is not taken into account (Holy Spirit).

I gave you the Bible quotes to see how Charismatic churches of good standing work.

The standard for belief and action is the Bible. So I referred to it, and you started to mischaracterize me, ask questions irrelevant to the issue at hand, etc.
 

Hamilton

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
142
44
28
#80
We can get so caught up in words, can't we? Like "ritual". Jesus condemned a Pharisees public prayer as a ritual not a prayer, yet our baptism requires a water ritual and is a source of power.

Todays churches have so many rituals or holidays taken from how pagan people lived so much of our world and worship has pagan rather than Christian roots.

I am isolated even from church through family disunity, age, and infirmities. Yet I am much closer to God for I spend many hours studying and in worship. My studies exclude any man doctrines and consciously keep strictly to scripture and history. I test everything as much as possible for facts, not theory.

I have discovered so many church held doctrines that are not from scripture that much of church seems a mockery to me.
Excellent observations, maybe you could draft an article about rituals: valid and spurious, etc.

Blessings.