Does church mean a lot to you?

[SpoonJuly]

Negative, I said it seemed like a man driven one. And waited for your clarification.

You make it seem like members decide, and do not acknowledge how God's input is taken into consideration.

Democracy does not equal godly decisions. If the key player is not taken into account (Holy Spirit).

I gave you the Bible quotes to see how Charismatic churches of good standing work.

The standard for belief and action is the Bible. So I referred to it, and you started to mischaracterize me, ask questions irrelevant to the issue at hand, etc.

So who decides in your charismatic church?
Simple question.
Why do you refuse to answer?
Every charismatic/pentacostal church in my area is ruled by the pastor.
He makes all decisions and the members have no say.
They claim to have a special anointing so are never questioned.

 

[melita916]

I grew up in a Pentecostal fellowship. The pastor never made decisions alone. We had a deacon board to help make decisions. But with BIG decisions, it would be brought before the congregation, and there would be a vote.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I grew up in a Pentecostal fellowship. The pastor never made decisions alone. We had a deacon board to help make decisions. But with BIG decisions, it would be brought before the congregation, and there would be a vote.

I said those in my area. Those are the only ones I have knowledge of.
Like Baptist, different congregations do things differently.
One of the local congregations has a deacon board also, but the pastor appoints those deacons so he is still in control.
I am not here to judge how other congregations conduct their affairs. None of my business.
But when some one implies that the way we choose to conduct ours is worldly, leaves God out, and calls my church "A MAN RUN ORGANIZATION" , implying we are not a true church, I am going to confront that person.

 

[Hamilton]

So who decides in your charismatic church?
Simple question.
Why do you refuse to answer?
Every charismatic/pentacostal church in my area is ruled by the pastor.
He makes all decisions and the members have no say.
They claim to have a special anointing so are never questioned.

SpoonJuly wrote: "So who decides in your charismatic church?".

The Holy Spirit gives input when is important.

SpoonJuly wrote: "Every charismatic/pentacostal church in my area is ruled by the pastor."

There are cases and exceptions. Story: A Pastor was looking to buy property to start a modest church. Many members brought ideas, news of offers, etc.

The Pastor decided to pray and fast for some time. God communicated to him where He wanted the property bought. By humans standards, the property was a bad acquisition.

He obeyed God and bought and started to build. Most persons were really doubtful that a good decision was made with the purchase.

Some time after a large developing company bought adjacent land, worked it, and a huge residential community was built, with commercial zonificación also.

Turns out that anyone going to or coming from had to go by the Church built by the congregation. God does know best.

If the decision was made by democracy by all members, no doubt they would have chosen the best deal: location, quality, price, zonificación, etc.

To think that human decision making is superior to God's input is arrogant.

SpoonJuly wrote: "He makes all decisions and the members have no say. They claim to have a special anointing so are never questioned"

Note that I made the distinction of a church in good standing (with God), so that no abuse of authority happens.

Note also that I am not saying that democracy is wrong in Church decisions, what I am saying is that the input of the Holy Spirit is needed for decision making optimization. (I quoted instances in which the H.S. directed in the Bible to show the principle).

Is God interested in the success of Kingdom expansion initiatives? of course. Is He willing to hint us as to what the best decision on certain key issues is? of course, but we must ask Him.

Hebrews 11:6. To seek means that there should come a time in which a relation (for real) is achieved, and thus direct input can be obtained.

What are the implications of Jeremiah 33:3? The higher gift of prophecy for the purposes of understanding the historical events and receiving instruction for orthopraxis in accordance to God's will, remains, for is how the Kingdom is expanded.

The prophetic area related to eschatology ceased because the Canon is closed, there is a difference.

1 Co 14:24 - 25. what are the implications of what is written? Has Jesus Christ resurrected? Is He among us? If so, do the things that He used to do in His earthly ministry continue to happen? (That is how authorities in Jesus times knew that He was resurrected, because the same miracles continued to happen).

Acts 14:3. Very important, the miracle worker is Jesus Himself, not any human.

2 Timothy 3:5 many persons pay lip service to the Bible, but when confronted with God's reality (He is perfect we are not perfect and live in a fallen region of His Kingdom, which means that when He shows up, He can set things right because of the love He has for His adopted children) then deny the power of God, His omnipotent capacity to do as He wishes, when He wishes, which is His prerogative because He is the creator and the only Being with Self-existence.

And the reason for having such wrong worldview, is because usually there is someone pushing an ungodly occult agenda, and manipulates the system.

 

[Hamilton]

I said those in my area. Those are the only ones I have knowledge of.
Like Baptist, different congregations do things differently.
One of the local congregations has a deacon board also, but the pastor appoints those deacons so he is still in control.
I am not here to judge how other congregations conduct their affairs. None of my business.
But when some one implies that the way we choose to conduct ours is worldly, leaves God out, and calls my church "A MAN RUN ORGANIZATION" , implying we are not a true church, I am going to confront that person.

I was clear that it seemed like so, because of the way you portrayed it. "We the members", the members... , it sounded like a member's church and not Jesus' Church.

By your reaction and mischaracterization, you just confirm to me that a lot of "member" input is involved.

Have you prayed earnestly to God why I am transmitting a message to you? And that is based on Biblical thrusts?

 

[Hamilton]

I grew up in a Pentecostal fellowship. The pastor never made decisions alone. We had a deacon board to help make decisions. But with BIG decisions, it would be brought before the congregation, and there would be a vote.

And I am sure all were praying and fasting, and persons payed attention to those brothers and sisters with the gift of discernment for input, and also checked the Scriptures to see if things aligned.

 

[Hamilton]

I grew up in a Pentecostal fellowship. The pastor never made decisions alone. We had a deacon board to help make decisions. But with BIG decisions, it would be brought before the congregation, and there would be a vote.

We are to check for signs of toxic leadership, and not tolerate it:

https://thomrainer.com/2014/10/fourteen-symptoms-toxic-church-leaders/

We do not want abusive leaders, but it should not turn into mob rule by the members either.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I was clear that it seemed like so, because of the way you portrayed it. "We the members", the members... , it sounded like a member's church and not Jesus' Church.

By your reaction and mischaracterization, you just confirm to me that a lot of "member" input is involved.

Have you prayed earnestly to God why I am transmitting a message to you? And that is based on Biblical thrusts?[/QUOTE

SpoonJuly responded

Your message is clear. You have judges the local church I am a member of as not a true church, because we do not do things as you believe they should be done.
There is nothing you can CORRECT me on.

When Peter called for Judas to be replaced, He called for the CHURCH to decide.
When Paul was sent out, He was sent by the CHURCH, and reported back to the CHURCH.
Paul instructed the CHURCH at Corinth to deal with the man that had taken his farther wife.
These maters were never left in the hands of the pastors or elders, but were dwelt with by the CHURCH.
We just follow the example.


When I stated that we answered only to God, made decisions only after much prayer and examining, that is a clear statement that we seek and follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
We trust in each member seeking God's will before they vote.
With very few exceptions, all are always in full agreement. Another sign of following the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
It is very evident that you are one who likes to judge others who do not agree with you way as being worldly, and ignoring the leadership of the Holy Spirit and doing thing mans way.

Pastors, Deacons, and Elders are not the only members of a local church that the Holy Spirit works through.
Since the Holy Spirit indwells every Believer, every Believer is influenced and lead by the Holy Spirit.
We do not have a class system---Pastors, deacons, elders being the upper class and everyone else less holy and Holy Spirit lead.
It was not so in the early churches and should not be today.

 

[SpoonJuly]

SpoonJuly wrote: "So who decides in your charismatic church?".

The Holy Spirit gives input when is important.

SpoonJuly wrote: "Every charismatic/pentacostal church in my area is ruled by the pastor."

There are cases and exceptions. Story: A Pastor was looking to buy property to start a modest church. Many members brought ideas, news of offers, etc.

The Pastor decided to pray and fast for some time. God communicated to him where He wanted the property bought. By humans standards, the property was a bad acquisition.

He obeyed God and bought and started to build. Most persons were really doubtful that a good decision was made with the purchase.

Some time after a large developing company bought adjacent land, worked it, and a huge residential community was built, with commercial zonificación also.

Turns out that anyone going to or coming from had to go by the Church built by the congregation. God does know best.

If the decision was made by democracy by all members, no doubt they would have chosen the best deal: location, quality, price, zonificación, etc.

To think that human decision making is superior to God's input is arrogant.

.

At no time did I say or even imply that human decision is superior to God's imput.

Now as far as the pastor and the property goes, HE MADE THE DECISION.
It was a man made decision.
Even thought He was following the leadership of the Holy Spirit, HE MADE THE DECISION.
In the end, a human person must decide.
My belief is if those who were advising him had also prayed and followed the leadership of the Holy Spirit, they would have agreed.
If there is no agreement, somebody is not following the Holy Spirit leadership.
May be the congregation or may be the pastor.
As I have stated before, just because some one holds the office of pastor does not make them without fault.

 

[Hamilton]

At no time did I say or even imply that human decision is superior to God's imput.

Now as far as the pastor and the property goes, HE MADE THE DECISION.
It was a man made decision.
Even thought He was following the leadership of the Holy Spirit, HE MADE THE DECISION.
In the end, a human person must decide.
My belief is if those who were advising him had also prayed and followed the leadership of the Holy Spirit, they would have agreed.
If there is no agreement, somebody is not following the Holy Spirit leadership.
May be the congregation or may be the pastor.
As I have stated before, just because some one holds the office of pastor does not make them without fault.

Now you are clarifying. If what they do in your church is pray, and all follow the lead of the H.S. then it would all be fine, regardless of who decides, as they are just implementing the lead of God.

Look at what you wrote and I will put in different format the problematic parts:

"It is not about a building. It is always about the local people who make up the local church. [correct]

As an independent Landmark Baptist, each member is equal with all other members with equal voice and power. {iffy, all same power? how about infiltrated tares, or colluding persons?]

This local church only answers to Jesus. [yet do not describe how the input of Jesus is obtained. Man interpretation of the Bible is not Jesus' input, as that interpretation may be flawed]

This local church owns and meets in a building because that is convenient for all members. [is a tool, the facilities are not the church, the church is the people as you mentioned above]

With 120 members and 80 -90 present in each meeting, owning a building is the most convenient and economical way for this local church. [fine].

This local church has a Pastor and teachers selected by the members. [this is most problematic. In the Bible the teachers and elders and pastors were selected following the input of God, not of members, they just voiced what God wanted (through higher gifts, and through gift of discernment of spirits others agreed)].

The missionaries this local church support are selected by the members. [also a problem, see the previous point]

Every dollar spent by this local church is by vote of the members." [not bad if following the lead of the H.S.].

Ok SpoonJuly, I am done explaining what I perceive and why I object (to what came across, maybe not what you meant to convey).

I hope you noticed that at no time I was condemning you, nor telling you are going to go to hell, nor asking you to leave your church.

I just think that persons that believe that the Bible is the rule for Belief and conduct, should pay heed to it, and in communication leave clear the importance of the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Just remember: if democracy was equal to godliness, the masses waiting for Moses to come down would not have decided and executed the cult of a golden idol.
Democracy and member voting power is useless if not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

(These kind of things are written in the Bible for our learning).

Kind regards.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Now you are clarifying. If what they do in your church is pray, and all follow the lead of the H.S. then it would all be fine, regardless of who decides, as they are just implementing the lead of God.

Look at what you wrote and I will put in different format the problematic parts:

"It is not about a building. It is always about the local people who make up the local church. [correct]

As an independent Landmark Baptist, each member is equal with all other members with equal voice and power. {iffy, all same power? how about infiltrated tares, or colluding persons?]

This local church only answers to Jesus. [yet do not describe how the input of Jesus is obtained. Man interpretation of the Bible is not Jesus' input, as that interpretation may be flawed]

This local church owns and meets in a building because that is convenient for all members. [is a tool, the facilities are not the church, the church is the people as you mentioned above]

With 120 members and 80 -90 present in each meeting, owning a building is the most convenient and economical way for this local church. [fine].

This local church has a Pastor and teachers selected by the members. [this is most problematic. In the Bible the teachers and elders and pastors were selected following the input of God, not of members, they just voiced what God wanted (through higher gifts, and through gift of discernment of spirits others agreed)].

The missionaries this local church support are selected by the members. [also a problem, see the previous point]

Every dollar spent by this local church is by vote of the members." [not bad if following the lead of the H.S.].

Ok SpoonJuly, I am done explaining what I perceive and why I object (to what came across, maybe not what you meant to convey).

I hope you noticed that at no time I was condemning you, nor telling you are going to go to hell, nor asking you to leave your church.

I just think that persons that believe that the Bible is the rule for Belief and conduct, should pay heed to it, and in communication leave clear the importance of the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Just remember: if democracy was equal to godliness, the masses waiting for Moses to come down would not have decided and executed the cult of a golden idol.
Democracy and member voting power is useless if not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

(These kind of things are written in the Bible for our learning).

Kind regards.

So you are admitting that the church you attend has a multi-tier membership system---------
The exalted class. Those in charge who make all the decisions and those humble, lesser members who have no say.
Seeing that you seem to object to all members having an equal voice I assume you are a part of the ruling class.

Matthew 23:8-12

 

[Hamilton]

So you are admitting that the church you attend has a multi-tier membership system---------
The exalted class. Those in charge who make all the decisions and those humble, lesser members who have no say.
Seeing that you seem to object to all members having an equal voice I assume you are a part of the ruling class.

Matthew 23:8-12

You are assuming too much. Infiltrated tares usually are unable to infiltrate the church, because the higher gifts of the Holy Spirit are put to use.

Once the tares voluntarily decide to stay out most of the remaining are sincere, and their input is taken into consideration.

So it comes down to the following: Do you believe that the higher gifts of the H.S. are still operating or not?

If not, where in the Bible do you find evidence to prove that is so?

If there is no clear evidence for cessationism in the Bible, then why do you base such a view on lack of experiencing the gifts?

Just because a particular type of church does not experience the gifts of the H. S. does not mean they ceased operating.

See the difference?

Like I said before, the first person to suggest cessationism was Augustine, and he had to take it back because of the amount of miracles happening at his gathering for worship place.

Calvin for some reason kept pushing cessationism, and many followed him instead of the clear teaching of the Bible.

So my question is: are we to be Calvinlike or Christlike? If we are to be Christlike then why follow man made theological constructs?

So many scandals in modern church is because the congregation (members), do not use the higher gifts of the H.S. to weed out tares, so that they do not get to leadership positions.

So many scandals could be prevented by using the discerning of spirits, and other gifts, why the insistence in promoting democracy without higher gifts?

Democracy without higher gifts of the Holy Spirit is not Biblical...

Study and heed:

1 Corinthians 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

Note the above context was normal church ministry not necessarily by Apostles of Christ, but by leaders in the Corinth congregation.

Their problem was not that they did not discover who was who, but that they did not apply discipline to bring the unrepentant to restoration.

Listen SpoonJuly, this is not a contest of truthiness, it is about following the real worldview of the Bible, you are not battling me, nor my tradition, but the Bible, because I am constantly referring to it.

Pray, fast, study Scriptures, ask God to manifest higher gifts in your religious circle to show that He is resurrected and well, and that still cares about the adopted children of HIs, and that fixes things for them because He is perfect and when visits this fallen region He allows miracles to happen to bear witness that He is indeed alive and with us as He promised He would be in the Bible.

 

[SpoonJuly]

So many scandals in modern church is because the congregation (members), do not use the higher gifts of the H.S. to weed out tares,

Pray, fast, study Scriptures, ask God to manifest higher gifts in your religious circle to show that He is resurrected and well, and that still cares about the adopted children of HIs, and that fixes things for them because He is perfect and when visits this fallen region He allows miracles to happen to bear witness that He is indeed alive and with us as He promised He would be in the Bible.

Most scandals in churches involve Pastors and those who rule the congregation, not the members.

As for as a SIGN ( manifesring higher gifts) that He is resurrected, I do not need. The Scripture, which I believe, states that He is resurrected and the Holy Spirit that dwells within me confirms it. No other sign needed.
I have never understood why some of you folks are still looking for signs like the Pharisees were.

This is where you and I disagree----
You believe that some in a local church are to rule the congregation.
I believe that all are equal, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and should never submit the authority of any man.
Jesus is my lord and Master and the only authority I will submit to..

 

[Hamilton]

"SpoonJuly, wrote: Most scandals in churches involve Pastors and those who rule the congregation, not the members.

As for as a SIGN ( manifesring higher gifts) that He is resurrected, I do not need. The Scripture, which I believe, states that He is resurrected and the Holy Spirit that dwells within me confirms it. No other sign needed.
I have never understood why some of you folks are still looking for signs like the Pharisees were.

This is where you and I disagree----
You believe that some in a local church are to rule the congregation.
I believe that all are equal, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and should never submit the authority of any man.
Jesus is my lord and Master and the only authority I will submit to.."

"SpoonJuly wrote: "Most scandals in churches involve Pastors and those who rule the congregation, not the members."

Precisely, so we need to make sure there are check and balances to control that. Only God can through the H.S. tell the congregation who is who, and who is fit for office.

"SpoonJuly wrote: "
As for as a SIGN ( manifesring higher gifts) that He is resurrected, I do not need. The Scripture, which I believe, states that He is resurrected and the Holy Spirit that dwells within me confirms it. No other sign needed.
I have never understood why some of you folks are still looking for signs like the Pharisees were."

This is what I am afraid you do not understand. Being the body of Christ, does not make us the head. The head is Jesus Christ. We are to follow His orders. The body does not have the capacity to decide because the body is not the head.

So if Jesus Christ is the head, how is the body to receive the orders from the head? there has to be a neuralgic system that is capable of receiving the information the head wants the body to receive for execution.

That neuralgic system is the persons with the higher gifts of the Sprit. It would be awesome if all the congregation had the capacity (what you and me want for all, or should want), but in real life, the gifts of the H.S. are given as He wants:
some are for administrative service, some for prophecy, some for teaching, some for discernment of spirits (I think all should strive to have this, so they are not fooled by wolves disguised), etc.

I did not invent the system, God did, and not following makes you fall in the same category of Eve: I want to be independent of God and decide by myself.

Ideally we should have all mature members in the congregation, with all higher gifts of the H.S., but if that happens, if the congregation is all mature, then reproduction is the next phase to expand the Kingdom: church planting to help in the redeeming ministry.

At some point the planting ministries will have a large percentage of the new congregations being "not so mature" believers, that even though regenerated, not with the experience and gifts to decide outside the direct input of God.

I have tried to explain to other believers in different forums: us being living stones part of the New Temple of God (as body of Jesus Christ, who is the New Temple), makes us part of the that New Temple where the Spirit of God dwells, but that does not make us that Holy Spirit.

We are not (as living stones part of the Temple where the Spirit of God dwells) the Holy Spirit dwelling there, who is the only authorized head of the Church.

"SpoonJuly wrote: "
This is where you and I disagree----
You believe that some in a local church are to rule the congregation.
I believe that all are equal, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and should never submit the authority of any man.
Jesus is my lord and Master and the only authority I will submit to.."

And this is precisely the problem. Man was never designed to operate outside the input of God.

Adam and Eve had Koinonia with God through the Holy Spirit that dwelled in them. When they transgressed, the Holy Spirit left them. No communication with God for receiving instructions was possible.

Jesus came to solve that problem. His mission was twofold: 1 die for us, 2 baptize us with the Holy Spirit.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is different to what you think happens after conversion. The proof is that there are wise and foolish virgins (parable where the oil is symbolizing the H. S.).

Look at the following excerpt:

"...The key to my whole new life was the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Others may choose another name for this experience, but I choose the biblical name. God came on me afresh and ushered me into His presence. I gained a more intimate walk with the Lord through this powerful release of God’s presence on my life.

I believe that this climactic special moment is a mark on all of God’s powerful servants of the past. Many speak of God’s anointing as a sacred moment and the beginning of a new realm of ministry for them.

One of these mighty servants of history was R. A. Torrey. Torrey had been a Christian in the ministry for years when suddenly in the course of his Bible study, he found his attention strongly attracted to phrases in Scripture such as “filled with the Spirit,” “the gift of the Holy Spirit,” and “the Holy Spirit fell upon them.” He wrote of his subsequent quest for the power of God in his own life:


As I studied the subject still further, I became convinced that they described an experience which I did not myself possess, and I went to work to secure for myself the experience thus described.

I sought earnestly that I might be “baptized with the Holy Spirit.” I went at it very ignorantly. I have often wondered if anyone ever went at it more ignorantly than I did. But while I was ignorant, I was thoroughly sincere and in earnest, and God met me, as He always meets the sincere and earnest soul, no matter how ignorant he may be. God gave me what I sought; I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. And the result was a transformed Christian life and a transformed ministry".


Phillips, R. (1999). Awakened by the spirit: reclaiming the forgotten gift of god. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.


The Bible is clear, in order to do correct Kingdom work we need to be able to discern God's particular will for the particular contextual situation we find ourselves in, and you get that input from God by the higher gifts of the H.S.

Once you have that then you can decide what to do because God will tell you what to do. It does not matter then if is one the person that receives the instructions, or many (elders), or the whole congregation.

Kind regards.

 

[SpoonJuly]

"SpoonJuly, wrote: Most scandals in churches involve Pastors and those who rule the congregation, not the members.

As for as a SIGN ( manifesring higher gifts) that He is resurrected, I do not need. The Scripture, which I believe, states that He is resurrected and the Holy Spirit that dwells within me confirms it. No other sign needed.
I have never understood why some of you folks are still looking for signs like the Pharisees were.

This is where you and I disagree----
You believe that some in a local church are to rule the congregation.
I believe that all are equal, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and should never submit the authority of any man.
Jesus is my lord and Master and the only authority I will submit to.."

"SpoonJuly wrote: "Most scandals in churches involve Pastors and those who rule the congregation, not the members."

Precisely, so we need to make sure there are check and balances to control that. Only God can through the H.S. tell the congregation who is who, and who is fit for office.

"SpoonJuly wrote: "
As for as a SIGN ( manifesring higher gifts) that He is resurrected, I do not need. The Scripture, which I believe, states that He is resurrected and the Holy Spirit that dwells within me confirms it. No other sign needed.
I have never understood why some of you folks are still looking for signs like the Pharisees were."

This is what I am afraid you do not understand. Being the body of Christ, does not make us the head. The head is Jesus Christ. We are to follow His orders. The body does not have the capacity to decide because the body is not the head.

So if Jesus Christ is the head, how is the body to receive the orders from the head? there has to be a neuralgic system that is capable of receiving the information the head wants the body to receive for execution.

That neuralgic system is the persons with the higher gifts of the Sprit. It would be awesome if all the congregation had the capacity (what you and me want for all, or should want), but in real life, the gifts of the H.S. are given as He wants:
some are for administrative service, some for prophecy, some for teaching, some for discernment of spirits (I think all should strive to have this, so they are not fooled by wolves disguised), etc.

I did not invent the system, God did, and not following makes you fall in the same category of Eve: I want to be independent of God and decide by myself.

Ideally we should have all mature members in the congregation, with all higher gifts of the H.S., but if that happens, if the congregation is all mature, then reproduction is the next phase to expand the Kingdom: church planting to help in the redeeming ministry.

At some point the planting ministries will have a large percentage of the new congregations being "not so mature" believers, that even though regenerated, not with the experience and gifts to decide outside the direct input of God.

I have tried to explain to other believers in different forums: us being living stones part of the New Temple of God (as body of Jesus Christ, who is the New Temple), makes us part of the that New Temple where the Spirit of God dwells, but that does not make us that Holy Spirit.

We are not (as living stones part of the Temple where the Spirit of God dwells) the Holy Spirit dwelling there, who is the only authorized head of the Church.

"SpoonJuly wrote: "
This is where you and I disagree----
You believe that some in a local church are to rule the congregation.
I believe that all are equal, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and should never submit the authority of any man.
Jesus is my lord and Master and the only authority I will submit to.."

And this is precisely the problem. Man was never designed to operate outside the input of God.

Adam and Eve had Koinonia with God through the Holy Spirit that dwelled in them. When they transgressed, the Holy Spirit left them. No communication with God for receiving instructions was possible.

Jesus came to solve that problem. His mission was twofold: 1 die for us, 2 baptize us with the Holy Spirit.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is different to what you think happens after conversion. The proof is that there are wise and foolish virgins (parable where the oil is symbolizing the H. S.).

Look at the following excerpt:

"...The key to my whole new life was the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Others may choose another name for this experience, but I choose the biblical name. God came on me afresh and ushered me into His presence. I gained a more intimate walk with the Lord through this powerful release of God’s presence on my life.

I believe that this climactic special moment is a mark on all of God’s powerful servants of the past. Many speak of God’s anointing as a sacred moment and the beginning of a new realm of ministry for them.

One of these mighty servants of history was R. A. Torrey. Torrey had been a Christian in the ministry for years when suddenly in the course of his Bible study, he found his attention strongly attracted to phrases in Scripture such as “filled with the Spirit,” “the gift of the Holy Spirit,” and “the Holy Spirit fell upon them.” He wrote of his subsequent quest for the power of God in his own life:


As I studied the subject still further, I became convinced that they described an experience which I did not myself possess, and I went to work to secure for myself the experience thus described.

I sought earnestly that I might be “baptized with the Holy Spirit.” I went at it very ignorantly. I have often wondered if anyone ever went at it more ignorantly than I did. But while I was ignorant, I was thoroughly sincere and in earnest, and God met me, as He always meets the sincere and earnest soul, no matter how ignorant he may be. God gave me what I sought; I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. And the result was a transformed Christian life and a transformed ministry".


Phillips, R. (1999). Awakened by the spirit: reclaiming the forgotten gift of god. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.


The Bible is clear, in order to do correct Kingdom work we need to be able to discern God's particular will for the particular contextual situation we find ourselves in, and you get that input from God by the higher gifts of the H.S.

Once you have that then you can decide what to do because God will tell you what to do. It does not matter then if is one the person that receives the instructions, or many (elders), or the whole congregation.

Kind regards.

I sense a lot of arrogance in you attitude.
The Pharisees also though they were better than others, chosen and anointed by God.
I will leave you to your foolish self pride and will pray that God will not allow you to lead others down the road you have taken.

 

[preacher4truth]

Hamilton says: "...and should never submit the authority of any man" speaking of the church.

Scripture says: "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

I'm going with Scripture here.

 

[Hamilton]

I sense a lot of arrogance in you attitude.
The Pharisees also though they were better than others, chosen and anointed by God.
I will leave you to your foolish self pride and will pray that God will not allow you to lead others down the road you have taken.

Imprecatory prayer? be careful, God knows who is who and will take action accordingly.

 

[Hamilton]

Hamilton says: "...and should never submit the authority of any man" speaking of the church.

Scripture says: "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

I'm going with Scripture here.

Totally agree, but how do we know the leaders are according to God's heart? how do we know they are not pushing some ungodly occult agenda?
God gave the church (not just the leaders) spiritual gifts to precisely have checks and balances.

Are we to take any doctrine suggested as absolute truth without checking the Scriptures to see if it is so?

What is the fruit real men of God being leaders should bear?

Not go against the worldview of the Bible to start with I would suppose.

So to me any leader going against clear teaching of Scripture is not to be submitted voluntarily under.

 

[Blik]

I sense a lot of arrogance in you attitude.
The Pharisees also though they were better than others, chosen and anointed by God.
I will leave you to your foolish self pride and will pray that God will not allow you to lead others down the road you have taken.

Our church today is NOT lead by the Lord, they are led by the gentile fathers of the first century who preached from their idol worshipping families they were converted from, but did not completely get away from.

As proof look at the amount of myology and pagan practices are accepted in our churches. There is a Christmas tree and Santa Claus in our churches. God told us to celebrate His path to our salvation every year and gave us ways to do it and said it was for everyone for all generations, but instead there is only Christianized pagan holidays and none suggested by the Lord. God gave is the attitude toward the Jews that we are to follow and told us why they were blinded to Christ, but it is not taught in the church, instead every Jewish way of honoring God is looked down on because we are told the Holy Spirit replaced the rituals to lead us. God explains His ways in the first five books of scripture, but only the NT is accepted as explanations of God.

If man let God run the church these things would not be so.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Our church today is NOT lead by the Lord, they are led by the gentile fathers of the first century who preached from their idol worshipping families they were converted from, but did not completely get away from.

As proof look at the amount of myology and pagan practices are accepted in our churches. There is a Christmas tree and Santa Claus in our churches. God told us to celebrate His path to our salvation every year and gave us ways to do it and said it was for everyone for all generations, but instead there is only Christianized pagan holidays and none suggested by the Lord. God gave is the attitude toward the Jews that we are to follow and told us why they were blinded to Christ, but it is not taught in the church, instead every Jewish way of honoring God is looked down on because we are told the Holy Spirit replaced the rituals to lead us. God explains His ways in the first five books of scripture, but only the NT is accepted as explanations of God. None are perfect.

If man let God run the church these things would not be so.

I believe one should only speak of churches he has experience with.
You paint all as evil but have not been in every church, so might want to reconsider.
Now I have been in a couple of churches that are very much as you describe, but I have also been in quite a few that do not.
The church I have been a part of since 1962 does not fit you description at all.