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E
romans 9 does not support the fatalistic view. or that God hated anyone.
In the jewish language, the term "hate" meant to "love less" not to literally hate.
Jesus told us if we do not love our spouse, or parents, we are in sin, at the same time, he said if we did not HATE (love less) these same people and follow him, we had no hope.
God did not hate two kids not yet born, and condemn one to hell and another to heaven. He chose Isreal as a nation to bless them in certain ways, He chose to love a edom a nation less than isreal. and not give them those same blessings.
I'm not a Calvinist either but I have been there. I see both that God died for all and that He also predestines (and not according to a foreseen choice we make) because both are taught in Scripture. But double predestination is not taught in Scripture, it is a doctrine some Calvinists hold to making a logical man made jump in saying 'since he predestined some for salvation (scripture), therefore He must have predestined the rest for damnation (not found in Scripture)....neither is the god of Arminians found in Scripture ...called free will...
Ephesians 2:1-3 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:1-3 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
G
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Matt 27:51~~New American Standard Bible
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Duet 30:19~~New American Standard Bible
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Matt 27:51~~New American Standard Bible
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Duet 30:19~~New American Standard Bible
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
E
No. Saul did have to chose. if he did not. He would be in hades today, not in paradise awaiting the return of his savor.
God did not FORCE saul to believe in hi, this is utter nonsense. God told saul what to do. Saul had to chose to do what God said, and believ in what he heard when he went there. The only reason we hear of it, is because Saul chose to believe.
God did not FORCE saul to believe in hi, this is utter nonsense. God told saul what to do. Saul had to chose to do what God said, and believ in what he heard when he went there. The only reason we hear of it, is because Saul chose to believe.
A
Sure, as long as you take what Jesus said out of context.
I'll put it back in context.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I'll put it back in context.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
We are not far apart, brother. I took the concept of predestination from Ro 8:29-30; NOT FROM CALVIN, and, like Paul, I associated it with uninfluenced foreknowledge of out response to Jesus. What you are saying appears to me to be quite close to what I am saying; and to what I believed crossnote was saying.
E
Yep context is quite clear.
1. Belief and your saved, do not believe and your condemned.
2. Who believes? those who are not afraid of th elight, and come to the light, so their deeds are exposed, and they may be saved
3. Who does not believe Those who HATE the light, thus they HIDE from the light, less their deeds be exposed (see also romans 1)
Yet jesus still died for the WORLD. (all men women and children) if he did not die for them, believing and not believing would not matter.
1. Belief and your saved, do not believe and your condemned.
2. Who believes? those who are not afraid of th elight, and come to the light, so their deeds are exposed, and they may be saved
3. Who does not believe Those who HATE the light, thus they HIDE from the light, less their deeds be exposed (see also romans 1)
Yet jesus still died for the WORLD. (all men women and children) if he did not die for them, believing and not believing would not matter.
A
Sorry. You've lost me entirely. I'm definitely not taking instructions from a guy who has no idea what the Levites were called to do and yet claims to know the Bible. Practice your persuasive skills on someone who doesn't know that about you. It will save on your finger muscles.
(Oh, BTW, when he cursed Esau, God killed off his descendants -- the Edomites -- in one fell swoop, so you're really peddling hard, but against someone who has a basic understanding of the Bible. i.e. You're peddling, but unaware you're on a stationary bike.)
Stop buying what whoever is teaching you and read the book yourself! Yeesh!
(Oh, BTW, when he cursed Esau, God killed off his descendants -- the Edomites -- in one fell swoop, so you're really peddling hard, but against someone who has a basic understanding of the Bible. i.e. You're peddling, but unaware you're on a stationary bike.)
Stop buying what whoever is teaching you and read the book yourself! Yeesh!
G
This what made me start to study. I could not logically say ," men are predestined to salvation." And rule out double predestination.
Freewill is the only solution.
The Arminian just takes it to the other extreme. They think that it was their freewill faith that saved them, when it was the object (Christ)of their faith that saved them.
They deny they were bought with a price and are not their own. Sealed.
Freewill is the only solution.
The Arminian just takes it to the other extreme. They think that it was their freewill faith that saved them, when it was the object (Christ)of their faith that saved them.
They deny they were bought with a price and are not their own. Sealed.
