Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

[Chester]

Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Do you believe that what he said is true? That he does according to his will(and you say his will is that all mankind should be saved)among the inhabitants of the earth(is that not all mankind?) And you are saying that the inhabitants of earth can stay his hand because they reject him! Are they more powerful than God? Jesus did not die for all mankind, only those that God gave him. If he wants all mankind to be saved, and he accomplishes all his will, why are not all mankind among those that he gave to Jesus? It is a simple deduction. Isaiah 46:10, My counsel (purpose) shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. Is it his purpose to save all mankind? Then why does he not do it? If it is his pleasure that all mankind be saved, then why does he not save them? You say it is because they reject him (stay his hand). He says that they can not stay his hand. The conclusion is that IT IS NOT GOD'S WILL TO SAVE ALL MANKIND.

Two statements you make above show your error:

"It is a simple deduction." (It is actually not a simpe deduction)
"The conclusion is that IT IS NOT GOD'S WILL TO SAVE ALL MANKIND." (The wrong conclusion . . .)

You are using man's reasoning to try to understand God and are not taking the Bible at face value at what it says about God. The problem is not with the Bible, it is with your view of what it says.

 

[Chester]

Thayer's definition - 8) Any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. a) The Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom 11:12 etc.) a) used of believers only, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.

I ask you again what Thayer's you are using? - and since you do not give any more information I stick by what I shared in post #334.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Two statements you make above show your error:

"It is a simple deduction." (It is actually not a simpe deduction)
"The conclusion is that IT IS NOT GOD'S WILL TO SAVE ALL MANKIND." (The wrong conclusion . . .)

You are using man's reasoning to try to understand God and are not taking the Bible at face value at what it says about God. The problem is not with the Bible, it is with your view of what it says.

I don't know how in view of the scriptures telling you that God accomplishes all his will. Does all of his good pleasures. Says that man cannot stay his hand. And many more scriptures affirming that God, if it be his will to save all mankind, does have the power to do exactly that! If you still insist that man has more power than God and can reject him to keep him from accomplishing his will, then I pray that the Holy Spirit within you will eventually reveal the attributes of God to you, but I do not expect that he will until you deny yourself and relinquish the idea that man has more power than God that he can reject him and derail his efforts to save them, even though that is his will.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I ask you again what Thayer's you are using? - and since you do not give any more information I stick by what I shared in post #334.

You stick with man having more power than God if you want to, but I serve a more powerful God than you do, in that, I give him credit for being able to accomplish all his will for man and none can stay his hand. When you deny God's power in face of the scriptures I have given you, makes me concerned about you.

 

[Slayer]

Yes, He did. For now anyway. Many people calls themselves Christian and are deceived by the god of this world to the point they cannot find the true way to God.

Including the 1.3 billion Roman Catholics that think they have God. God is not done with them yet. He has a plan in place written in the scriptures. Pray the scales fall from your eyes, and you find it.

I'm not looking for anything, I posses the truth and I have eternal life in paradise. I'm not sure what you mean by scales, you're speaking to a Saint of God....

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I don't know how in view of the scriptures telling you that God accomplishes all his will. Does all of his good pleasures. Says that man cannot stay his hand. And many more scriptures affirming that God, if it be his will to save all mankind, does have the power to do exactly that! If you still insist that man has more power than God and can reject him to keep him from accomplishing his will, then I pray that the Holy Spirit within you will eventually reveal the attributes of God to you, but I do not expect that he will until you deny yourself and relinquish the idea that man has more power than God that he can reject him and derail his efforts to save them, even though that is his will.

Correction on my last statement: Even though, you say that his will is to save all mankind.

 

[Slayer]

Chester said: Which one says that God does not love all of mankind and does not want everyone to be saved?



I am still whistling waiting for an answer . . . . to my question . . . . .

I will answer your questions once you are able to answer mine . . .

Do you really believe that God loves the REPROBATE!!!! have a look these verses below in the link. There are around 100 verses which prove God hates the reprobate and He doesn't want to save them and He has made it impossible for them to be saved. They are sealed for hell.

I was going to list all the verses here but it won't let me because there are too many to fit there. Come back and apologize for ignoring these Bible verses in your past life. I'm sure they will change your life after you read them.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/reprobate

 

[Chester]

Here is the documentation of this discussion about Thayer's:

First quote: Nehemiah 6 suggests "world" in John 3:16 means all the inhabitants of the Earth

You focused on "believeth" but forgot all about "the world", which, according to all reliable sources means THE WORLD OF HUMANITY -- THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH. This means that the "whosoever" in John 3:15-17 means anyone and everyone. And that means that Five Point Calvinism is bogus theology.

Secondly: ForestGreenCook says that according to Thayers "world" is used of believers only

Not according to Thayer's Greek interpretation of the word "WORLD" meaning, Used of believers only, and also in the following scriptures; John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33,12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, and 2 Cor 5:19.

Thirdly: I look in my Thayer's lexicon and find different information. I ask if ForestGreenCook can document his information and say what Thayer's he is using.

What Thayer's are you using sir? The New Thayer's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament (copyright 1981) lists all of those Scriptures except I Cor. 4:9 under definition #5 of kosmos (world), page 357. Definition #5 is this: "the inhabitants of the world, the inhabitants of the earth, , men, the human race". He says nothing about "used of believers only". Unless you can document Thayer's better, I think you need to admit your mistake.I stand by what I said previously: John 3:16 means that God loved all of the world (the people in the world) and that is why He sent His Son.

Fourthly: This is ForestGreenCook's response: He gives Thayer's information again but does not document it?

Thayer's definition - 8) Any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. a) The Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom 11:12 etc.) a) used of believers only, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.

Fifthly: I respond again and ask what Thayer's he is using?

I ask you again what Thayer's you are using? - and since you do not give any more information I stick by what I shared in post #334.

Sixthly: Here is his response:

You stick with man having more power than God if you want to, but I serve a more powerful God than you do, in that, I give him credit for being able to accomplish all his will for man and none can stay his hand. When you deny God's power in face of the scriptures I have given you, makes me concerned about you.

I lay my case to rest. Let the reader by the judge.

 

[Chester]

Chester said: Which one says that God does not love all of mankind and does not want everyone to be saved?

I am still whistling waiting for an answer . . . . to my question . . . . .

I will answer your questions once you are able to answer mine . . .

Do you really believe that God loves the REPROBATE!!!! have a look these verses below in the link. There are around 100 verses which prove God hates the reprobate and He doesn't want to save them and He has made it impossible for them to be saved. They are sealed for hell.

I was going to list all the verses here but it won't let me because there are too many to fit there. Come back and apologize for ignoring these Bible verses in your past life. I'm sure they will change your life after you read them.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/reprobate

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I quoted some scriptures and you didn't agree with my understanding of them. Perhaps you should correct me if I am mistaken, I love to be corrected because it edify's me.

Proper interpretation of Scripture has been provided and wholly rejected by you. Perhaps you only love correction when the correction is in line with your preconceived notion of what you believe Scripture should state.

We need to be prepared to change our view, when we discover that it doesn't line up with what the Bible says.

Is that an all inclusive "we"? Appears to me your "we" does not include yourself.

it took me yeas to accept the Biblical truth of the matter so I don't judge anyone who has a different view. I just see them as being where I was a few years ago.

I find it ironic that when someone makes a statement like this it is to point out that the other person needs to change their view ... and not that you need to change your view.

just sayin'

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are not facing the reality of just how depraved we all are by our fleshly nature, yes, even you. Take the example of David, a man who is the apple of God's eye, who did commit adultery, lied and did commit murder. We all perform every evil work which God abhors, at times, by our sinful nature. That is why we have to repent often.

Right. According to you, Romans 1:18-32 does not refer to the unbeliever who continues to reject to the point where God gives him/her over to a reprobate mind.

And, according to you, Romans 1:18-32 refers to the "disobedient child of God" who continues to turn his/her back on God and step further and further away from Him until he/she reaches the point where he/she hates God (vs 30).

And, according to you, this does not matter because the "disobedient child of God" will not find him/herself cast into the lake of fire because he/she is "elect". You have really done a doozy on this section of Scripture


Even Calvin acknowledged that Rom 1:20 speaks of God being revealed through the natural, physical realm.

Here is what Calvin wrote in his Commentary on Romans [bold, underline mine]:

God is in himself invisible; but as his majesty shines forth in his works and in his creatures everywhere, men ought in these to acknowledge him, for they clearly set forth their Maker: and for this reason the Apostle in his Epistle to the Hebrews says, that this world is a mirror, or the representation of invisible things. He does not mention all the particulars which may be thought to belong to God; but he states, that we can arrive at the knowledge of his eternal power and divinity​

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That is why you have to omit some scriptures that you don't think harmonize with your beliefs Any time you find the action words, repent, accept, believe, etc. it is always having reference to disobedient children of God.

What you are doing when you insist that Rom 1:18-32 refers to "disobedient children of God" is changing God's Word to fit your dogma ... all because you cannot agree with Scripture that God reveals Himself to natural man through the natural physical realm. All of nature declares the eternal power and Godhead of our Creator.

Romans 1 is not the only section in Scripture which states this truth:


Psalm 19:

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I am pleased to hear you admit that the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things that Paul said. That is progress.

you seem to have forgotten what I told you in post #146 of this thread.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...h-to-save-everyone.178416/page-8#post-3678195



I asked you at that time “Where have I stated God gives the natural man to ability to discern spiritual things?”

You didn’t answer me then and I must ask you again to show me a post submitted by me wherein I stated that natural man understands spiritual things Paul said. Thank you.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What Thayer's are you using sir? The New Thayer's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament (copyright 1981) lists all of those Scriptures except I Cor. 4:9 under definition #5 of kosmos (world), page 357. Definition #5 is this: "the inhabitants of the world, the inhabitants of the earth, , men, the human race". He says nothing about "used of believers only".

Unless you can document Thayer's better, I think you need to admit your mistake.

I stand by what I said previously: John 3:16 means that God loved all of the world (the people in the world) and that is why He sent His Son.

I've already pointed out to ForestGreenCook that his version of Thayer's has been manipulated and that earlier editions are clear in stating that Thayer's defines kosmos as "the inhabitants of the world, the inhabitants of the earth, , men, the human race".

He continues to deny, deflect, and posts from whatever edition he uses (interestingly enough, he has not indicated which version he's using even though you've asked him for that information). I've even shown him the discrepancy and he continues to quote from the version which appears to have been manipulated to define the word kosmos in a manner never intended by God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If you still insist that man has more power than God and can reject him to keep him from accomplishing his will, then I pray that the Holy Spirit within you will eventually reveal the attributes of God to you, but I do not expect that he will until you deny yourself and relinquish the idea that man has more power than God that he can reject him and derail his efforts to save them, even though that is his will.

What was God's Will when He told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

God told Adam not to eat. Adam ate. Does this mean Adam had "more power than God" or that it was God's Will that Adam eat of the tree? Of course not.

God allows mankind to reject and this does not mean that when mankind does not reject it's because that person is doing any "work" to not reject.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You stick with man having more power than God if you want to, but I serve a more powerful God than you do, in that, I give him credit for being able to accomplish all his will for man and none can stay his hand.

When you claim that the sacrifice of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ covers only "believers", you deny the all encompassing power God has to save all mankind from all sin. Those who reject the Savior will be rejected.

 

[Slayer]

Proper interpretation of Scripture has been provided and wholly rejected by you. Perhaps you only love correction when the correction is in line with your preconceived notion of what you believe Scripture should state.





Is that an all inclusive "we"? Appears to me your "we" does not include yourself.





I find it ironic that when someone makes a statement like this it is to point out that the other person needs to change their view ... and not that you need to change your view.

just sayin'

I have changed my view many times, just as every honest person will admit to doing. Only the arrogant and hypocrites refuse to be corrected when scriptures are presented as evidence. Let every man be a liar and let God be true, I accept the Word of God as it is. I don't twist it to support some agenda as many here do.

I have presented hundreds of verses to support my position and some come back with one or two obscure verses to try and support their false view.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have presented hundreds of verses to support my position and some come back with one or two obscure verses to try and support their false view.

You have presented many "my pastor says ..." and you have posted some information which you cut/paste from various websites. That is not quite the same as posting Scripture with open and honest discussion.

When Scripture is provided which exposes error in your interpretation, you reject out of hand without providing any rebuttal other than "my pastor says ..."

 

[Slayer]

You have presented many "my pastor says ..." and you have posted some information which you cut/paste from various websites. That is not quite the same as posting Scripture with open and honest discussion.

When Scripture is provided which exposes error in your interpretation, you reject out of hand without providing any rebuttal other than "my pastor says ..."

Scripture is scripture, whether it's cut and pasted or typed. It doesn't matter which website quotes scripture, it's still the same and and as I said none of you Arminians have ever presented scripture verses to prove Calvin wrong but I have given you hundreds

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Scripture is scripture, whether it's cut and pasted or typed. It doesn't matter which website quotes scripture, it's still the same and and as I said none of you Arminians have ever presented scripture verses to prove Calvin wrong but I have given you hundreds

I have shown you from Rom 1 that men reject God as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and that it is God's desire that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth as shown in 1 Tim 2:4.

Your response to that was to indicate that the "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 refers to believers only. You provided absolutely no Scripture to corroborate your claim.

In effect you add words to 1 Tim 2:4. God could easily have stated that it is His desire that all who believe be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But God didn't add those words and it is incumbent on you to not add to Scripture as you prop up a doctrine never intended by God.

In 1 Tim 2:4, the word "all" is the Greek word pantas (plural) and it refers to all things constituting the whole … "ALL MEN". There is no further qualifying description as you claim/infer. Just "all men" with no distinction as to whether they are believers or unbelievers.

When you add words to Scripture in order to prop up a doctrine not intended by God, you change the Word of God, and end up with an erroneous interpretation of Scripture.

When we understand that God's desire is that "ALL" men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4) and then further understand that God allows mankind to reject Him as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), we see that there is no conflict between the two verses.

The sacrifice of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is sufficient to cover all the sins of all mankind. The fact that some men end up in the lake of fire is due to their suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and thereby rejecting God's all sufficient grace.