Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Oh, right. You do not believe Rom 1:18 - 32 refers to the unbeliever who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

You believe Rom 1:18 - 32 refers to God's "disobedient children".






Clearly you suppress the truth in unrighteousness concerning God's sovereignty in allowing mankind to reject Him.

Because you consider yourself as one of God's "elect", you have no qualms about changing Scripture to fit a doctrine never intended by God.
A good test to see if your doctrine of eternal deliverance by your works will stand, is to have your doctrine harmonize, instead of ignore, with all of the other scriptures, which they do not!
 

ForestGreenCook

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Your concluding statement is "so Jesus did not die for all mankind, but only those that his Father gave him": I looked diligently through all the above verses you gave to find where a verse says this, but I found none!

Can you help me? Where does one of the verses you gave make that statement?
God is, all powerful, all knowing, has all foreknowledge, is present every where at the same time. accomplishes all of his will. According to his ability to accomplish all his will as stated in Dan 4:35, Isaiah 55:11 says "my word that goeth forth out of my mouth shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please". Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. and it is his will, as you say, that he loves all mankind and wants all mankind to be saved, then why are there scriptures that some are going to hell?
 

ForestGreenCook

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I don't see you giving any Scriptures, so I rest my case . . .

so I will give a few Scriptures that clearly say God loves all the world and wants everyone to come to repentance:

II Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
2 Pet 3:9--- In order to keep this verse in context, we have to establish who Peter is talking to, and we find that in 2 Pet 1:1, and it is to the church at Corinth to those who have "like precious faith". Peter is reminding them to repent when they are disobedient to God's commandments, so they might not lose their fellowship with God. Other scriptures infer that you are "DEAD" to the fellowship of God when you are in disobedience, henceforth using the word "PERISH". Peter also includes himself in this warning by using the word "US-WARD". I study from the KJV, and in John 3:16, the word "believeth" is used, which is in the present tense, not will believe, as I think you are interpreting it, which is in the future tense, so this verse is referencing believers only.
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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More twisting of Scripture. Your utter nonsense affords those who find themselves in the lake of fire with yet another excuse – information was withheld which, had God not "deliberately [written] the Bible in such a way that it wouldn't make any sense to the reprobate", they would have been able to understand so as not to be cast into the lake of fire.

Is there no end to your insolence?
Do you always read half of every verse and ignore the other half, do I need to list all the scriptures which spell out the fact that God hides the Gospel from the reprobate? It seems like you need to go back and learn the basics. You knowledge of scripture is lacking in a big way.
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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Which one says that God does not love all of mankind and does not want everyone to be saved? :whistle::whistle:
What do you think "He made the wicked for the day of evil" is the day of evil a day of love and fun?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
More twisting of Scripture. Your utter nonsense affords those who find themselves in the lake of fire with yet another excuse – information was withheld which, had God not "deliberately [written] the Bible in such a way that it wouldn't make any sense to the reprobate", they would have been able to understand so as not to be cast into the lake of fire.

Is there no end to your insolence?
Apparently not!!
 
Mar 23, 2016
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The natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 will not believe in a spiritual God, and furthermore, cannot discern spiritual laws, or the judgement of a spiritual God's judgments of those laws.
The natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 cannot understand the spiritual matters spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor 2.

However, Rom 1:20-21 tells us the natural man can observe God's eternal power and Godhead as he/she observes the natural, physical creation. That is why they are without excuse.




The disobedient children of God, however, do know those spiritual things. Rom 1:32, Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. You may not change the word of God to uphold your false doctrine of eternal deliverance by works of man, you just do not acknowledge the scriptures that you can not explain, and you do not rightly divide the salvation scriptures from an eternal meaning to a timely meaning that we receive as we live here on earth.
First of all, I believe salvation is by grace ... and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Furthermore, what is incredible is your claim that the "disobedient children of God" described in Romans 1:18-32 are actually "elect" and they will not find themselves cast into the lake of fire even though they perform every evil work which God abhors.

Sure ... and I'm the one who "changes the Word of God to uphold [my] false doctrine". mmhmmm
 
Mar 23, 2016
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A good test to see if your doctrine of eternal deliverance by your works will stand, is to have your doctrine harmonize, instead of ignore, with all of the other scriptures, which they do not!
I believe salvation is by grace ... and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Do you always read half of every verse and ignore the other half, do I need to list all the scriptures which spell out the fact that God hides the Gospel from the reprobate? It seems like you need to go back and learn the basics. You knowledge of scripture is lacking in a big way.
Just because I do not agree with you does not mean my "knowledge of Scripture is lacking in a big way".

 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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2 Pet 3:9--- In order to keep this verse in context, we have to establish who Peter is talking to, and we find that in 2 Pet 1:1, and it is to the church at Corinth to those who have "like precious faith". Peter is reminding them to repent when they are disobedient to God's commandments, so they might not lose their fellowship with God. Other scriptures infer that you are "DEAD" to the fellowship of God when you are in disobedience, henceforth using the word "PERISH". Peter also includes himself in this warning by using the word "US-WARD". I study from the KJV, and in John 3:16, the word "believeth" is used, which is in the present tense, not will believe, as I think you are interpreting it, which is in the future tense, so this verse is referencing believers only.
"Whosoever" surely meaneth me, speaking as a sinner can be saved by grace through faith. ..who will have all men to be saved... 1Timothy 2:4 because Christ ...gave himself a ransom for all... 1Timothy 2:6 and that the ...grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men...Titus 2:11
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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I study from the KJV, and in John 3:16, the word "believeth" is used, which is in the present tense, not will believe, as I think you are interpreting it, which is in the future tense, so this verse is referencing believers only.
Frankly it's a waste of time trying to put Calvinists on the right track. It is almost like dealing with brainwashed cultists.

You focused on "believeth" but forgot all about "the world", which, according to all reliable sources means THE WORLD OF HUMANITY -- THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH. This means that the "whosoever" in John 3:15-17 means anyone and everyone. And that means that Five Point Calvinism is bogus theology.
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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Just because I do not agree with you does not mean my "knowledge of Scripture is lacking in a big way".
I quoted some scriptures and you didn't agree with my understanding of them. Perhaps you should correct me if I am mistaken, I love to be corrected because it edify's me.
I've noticed that most Christians don't like to hear the whole counsel of God, most like to acknowledge the scriptures which speak of Gods love and mercy but they ignore those that speak abut His judgement and hatred of sin.

Everyone is on a different section of the journey, I didn't believe the true Gospel for many years after I was converted. I had a different understanding of it, and I learned the truth by listening top older brothers. We need to be prepared to change our view, when we discover that it doesn't line up with what the Bible says.

I refused to believe that God is the One who decides who will be saved and who will be lost, it took me yeas to accept the Biblical truth of the matter so I don't judge anyone who has a different view. I just see them as being where I was a few years ago.
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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Do you always read half of every verse and ignore the other half, do I need to list all the scriptures which spell out the fact that God hides the Gospel from the reprobate? It seems like you need to go back and learn the basics. You knowledge of scripture is lacking in a big way.
2 Corinthians 4:3 Context​


1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Umm, looks different to me of what Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.

Yea, reprobate, those have been rejected because they rejected Christ and had rejected the Gospel truth. It is not that God rejected them in the first placed, he gives all men without any single exception to draw to him though many resist, ignore or suppress such drawing to their own doom. God did not hide the Gospel from anyone; it is the god of this world that blinded the minds of them that do not believe.
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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2 Corinthians 4:3 Context​


1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Umm, looks different to me of what Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.

Yea, reprobate, those have been rejected because they rejected Christ and had rejected the Gospel truth. It is not that God rejected them in the first placed, he gives all men without any single exception to draw to him though many resist, ignore or suppress such drawing to their own doom. God did not hide the Gospel from anyone; it is the god of this world that blinded the minds of them that do not believe.
Yes God allowed the god of this world to blind their minds so they would not believe. The point of contention between our views is, we believe God ordained some to believe and others He didn't give the gift of faith so they will not believe.

So we believe God preordained everyone to be what they are, believers and non believers. God created them and He decides who to reveal the truth to and who to leave in their sin
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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I quoted some scriptures and you didn't agree with my understanding of them. Perhaps you should correct me if I am mistaken, I love to be corrected because it edify's me.
I've noticed that most Christians don't like to hear the whole counsel of God, most like to acknowledge the scriptures which speak of Gods love and mercy but they ignore those that speak abut His judgement and hatred of sin.

Everyone is on a different section of the journey, I didn't believe the true Gospel for many years after I was converted. I had a different understanding of it, and I learned the truth by listening top older brothers. We need to be prepared to change our view, when we discover that it doesn't line up with what the Bible says.

I refused to believe that God is the One who decides who will be saved and who will be lost, it took me yeas to accept the Biblical truth of the matter so I don't judge anyone who has a different view. I just see them as being where I was a few years ago.
I really don’t think God allowed the god of this world to blind the eyes of them that believe not. If God allowed then God seems to be bias. Satan the god of this world is the cause for it because he was a liar and the father of it.

God’s creation over mankind has left them with the volition or will. I know that God has its perfect plan and will nevertheless, it is the will of men that decides either he do it God’s way or his own peril way. In the case you are offering, God may have violated his other attributes as far as the scripture is concerned for God loves all the mankind though All have sinned. What God has pre-ordained is his own act that is according to his own purpose or will unto adoption and redemption by Christ and not that he had pre destined man to be what they are.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesinas 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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The natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 cannot understand the spiritual matters spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor 2.

However, Rom 1:20-21 tells us the natural man can observe God's eternal power and Godhead as he/she observes the natural, physical creation. That is why they are without excuse.





First of all, I believe salvation is by grace ... and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Furthermore, what is incredible is your claim that the "disobedient children of God" described in Romans 1:18-32 are actually "elect" and they will not find themselves cast into the lake of fire even though they perform every evil work which God abhors.

Sure ... and I'm the one who "changes the Word of God to uphold [my] false doctrine". mmhmmm
You are not facing the reality of just how depraved we all are by our fleshly nature, yes, even you. Take the example of David, a man who is the apple of God's eye, who did commit adultery, lied and did commit murder. We all perform every evil work which God abhors, at times, by our sinful nature. That is why we have to repent often.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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You are not facing the reality of just how depraved we all are by our fleshly nature, yes, even you. Take the example of David, a man who is the apple of God's eye, who did commit adultery, lied and did commit murder. We all perform every evil work which God abhors, at times, by our sinful nature. That is why we have to repent often.
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Frankly it's a waste of time trying to put Calvinists on the right track. It is almost like dealing with brainwashed cultists.

You focused on "believeth" but forgot all about "the world", which, according to all reliable sources means THE WORLD OF HUMANITY -- THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH. This means that the "whosoever" in John 3:15-17 means anyone and everyone. And that means that Five Point Calvinism is bogus theology.
Not according to Thayer's Greek interpretation of the word "WORLD" meaning, Used of believers only, and also in the following scriptures; John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33,12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, and 2 Cor 5:19.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Strong's Greek interpretation of the word "SANCTIFIED" in Heb 10:29, means, to make holy. These under consideration in Heb 10:29 are Children of God, made holy by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. Like I told you, you are not denying yourself and realizing just how depraved we can be at times by our fleshly nature. You know, like the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14, that is how we are by our fleshly nature, even though we have been born again. Read again Paul's experience of battling with his fleshly nature. You are not pleasing God by depending upon your works (repent, accept, believe, respond, your faith, etc) to get eternal deliverance. If you would just consider that when a scripture uses those works of man, it is talking about disobedient children of God, you could harmonize the scriptures much better. Of course, you would have to give up on depending on your good works for eternal deliverance, and I do not expect that you will. At the top of the list of the seven things that God hates is "a proud look" found in Proverbs.