Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

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Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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I am fully aware that we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us (2 Cor 4:7) and that in this lifetime we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face, now we know in part, but then we shall be known even as also we are known (1 Cor 13:12).
The "now we know in part", sounds like we don't have full control of all of our faculties. We all sin in our daily lives, because we take our will back into our own hands on a regular basis. Then after we have done what we wanted to, we hand our will back to God. none of us are able to fully surrender our will and our lives over to the care of God and let Him keep it.

The theme goes like this, we take our will back and commit some sins then we give it back to God. Paul described it as a war within. He said he did things he didn't want to do, but the force inside was making him sin against his will.

Now Paul was a very Godly and Holy Saint, so if he couldn't defeat residual sin within him what hope is there for the common sinner to gain control over themselves and stop sinning. The Bible tells us we have no power over sin, only Christ has and we are at sins mercy.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Or, God saw in His foreknowledge the fall of man and, therefore, He devised the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world, holds it out to ALL and reveals His eternal power and Godhead to ALL. Those who reject are without excuse (Rom 1:18-20).





So when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was it God's will?

If it was God's will to have Adam eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, why did God tell Adam not to eat in Gen 2:17?

Your assertion has no merit and the Bible falls apart in the first couple of chapters.
Romans 1, Paul is talking, verse 7, to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. Verse 16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. Verse 17, For therein ( the gospel of Christ ) is the righteousness of God revealed. This is why they were without excuse because they had been shown by the gospel. And again, you are not able to understand the condition of the natural man, void of the Spirit. God is a Spirit and his gospel is talking about spiritual things, in which, the natural man can not understand, it is foolishness unto him. Verse 19, Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them. This is not the description of the natural man.
 

ForestGreenCook

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1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God has chosen to save those who believe.
And, again, the natural man can not believe spiritual things. You are going to have to understand the inability of the natural man before all the scriptures will harmonize.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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And, again, the natural man can not believe spiritual things. You are going to have to understand the inability of the natural man before all the scriptures will harmonize.
He can understand his need to be saved. He may not have all the theological knowledge of some but he can understand that he is a sinner and only Christ can save him.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is only the theological giants of our time that stumble at these simple truths. Sinners know they are sinners. Gods word only brings the conviction of the sin to the front by the Holy Spirit. Too bad that many have long forgotten and no longer trust the word of God to accomplish what God has intended it to accomplish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 23, 2016
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The "now we know in part", sounds like we don't have full control of all of our faculties. We all sin in our daily lives, because we take our will back into our own hands on a regular basis. Then after we have done what we wanted to, we hand our will back to God. none of us are able to fully surrender our will and our lives over to the care of God and let Him keep it.

The theme goes like this, we take our will back and commit some sins then we give it back to God. Paul described it as a war within. He said he did things he didn't want to do, but the force inside was making him sin against his will.

Now Paul was a very Godly and Holy Saint, so if he couldn't defeat residual sin within him what hope is there for the common sinner to gain control over themselves and stop sinning. The Bible tells us we have no power over sin, only Christ has and we are at sins mercy.
I believe the "now we know in part" relates to what we can know in our earthly lifetime. No matter how "spiritually mature" we are in this lifetime (or think we are), we will never be able to comprehend in this lifetime all that we will be able to comprehend when we have our new bodies and live in new heaven / new earth.

We see this in the following verses:

1 Corinthians 13:

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.



In this lifetime, we see through a glass darkly because we are children. We understand and think as a child does.

In new heaven / new earth, when we become an adult, childish things will be put away and we will see face to face and we shall know even as also we are known.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Romans 1, Paul is talking, verse 7, to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. Verse 16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. Verse 17, For therein ( the gospel of Christ ) is the righteousness of God revealed. This is why they were without excuse because they had been shown by the gospel.
Paul stops speaking of the believer at the end of vs 17 the just shall live by faith.

He then goes on to speak of those against whom the wrath of God is revealed:

vs 18 – those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

vs 19 – because God has "shewed" that which may be known of God.

The word "shewed" in vs 19 is the Greek word phaneroō which means to make visible what has been hidden or unknown, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way.

Thayer's (1889 edition) specifically defines phaneroō as

"of God teaching the gentiles concerning Himself by the works of nature"

sadly the later versions of Thayer's define phaneroō as "apparent, manifest evident, known, in their minds" – so a manipulation to support a doctrine never intended by Thayer or God – does that even bother you in the least??? (Apparently not because you turn a blind eye to the alteration. No wonder you have no problem with what the calvinist doctrine has done to Scripture.)

vs 20 – the invisible things of God are clearly seen and are understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so they (the ones who suppress the truth in unrighteousness) are without excuse.

These verses do not speak of some hidden, spiritually obscure reality that only those who are "spiritual" can understand.

These verses speak of things which are not visible being understood by that which is visible. If you still don't understand, look at Psalm 19.




ForestGreenCook said:
And again, you are not able to understand the condition of the natural man, void of the Spirit. God is a Spirit and his gospel is talking about spiritual things, in which, the natural man can not understand, it is foolishness unto him. Verse 19, Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them. This is not the description of the natural man.
It is a description of the natural man who, though God has revealed His eternal power and Godhead, the natural man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

The believer is the one revealed in vs 16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth

The one who does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, is the one who believes the gospel of Christ.

Romans 1:17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed

 
Mar 23, 2016
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And, again, the natural man can not believe spiritual things. You are going to have to understand the inability of the natural man before all the scriptures will harmonize.
Your standard "go to" verse because you are spiritually blind to the truth that God allows mankind to reject Him.

You need to take your blinders off and understand that God allows those who reject Him to reject, in spite of His revealing Himself. And because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they are without excuse.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Your standard "go to" verse because you are spiritually blind to the truth that God allows mankind to reject Him.

You need to take your blinders off and understand that God allows those who reject Him to reject, in spite of His revealing Himself. And because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they are without excuse.
They are without excuse because they have heard the gospel. The natural man cannot understand the spiritual gospel. You keep trying to give attributes to the natural man that he does not have, such as hearing and believing. The natural man CANNOT discern spiritual things and there is no way you can change that fact to harmonize the scriptures.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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They are without excuse because they have heard the gospel. The natural man cannot understand the spiritual gospel. You keep trying to give attributes to the natural man that he does not have, such as hearing and believing. The natural man CANNOT discern spiritual things and there is no way you can change that fact to harmonize the scriptures.
And the beat goes on. You are still wrong and showing no signs of learning anything. Imagine my surprise.

Pr 26:16 The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason

Just something to consider.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 23, 2016
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They are without excuse because they have heard the gospel. The natural man cannot understand the spiritual gospel. You keep trying to give attributes to the natural man that he does not have, such as hearing and believing. The natural man CANNOT discern spiritual things and there is no way you can change that fact to harmonize the scriptures.
The spiritual things referred to in 1 Cor 2:14 relate to that which Paul spoke among them that are perfect (perfect as in they were "spiritually mature" ... not perfect as in they "do not sin").


1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory



Please note that in 1 Cor 2:1-2, Paul indicates he came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom and that he could go no further with them than Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Not because he didn't want to speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.

But because the church at Corinth was not spiritually mature. They were still in spiritual infancy because they had left off following Christ and had broken off into factions wherein some followed Paul or Apollos, or Cephas:


1 Corinthians 1:

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?



And this fact is further corroborated in 1 Cor 3:

1 Corinthians 3:

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?



You need to quit throwing up 1 Cor 2:14 as your standard for supporting a doctrine which is not contained in Scripture.

It is clear from Rom 1:18-20 that some reject that which has been revealed to them, not because God does not want them to believe but because they, of their own volition, reject ... even though the eternal power of God is revealed to them. That is why they are without excuse.

They reject, not because they are not part of some so-called "elect" club you continue to insist upon. They reject because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. That is why they are without excuse.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
And, again, the natural man can not believe spiritual things. You are going to have to understand the inability of the natural man before all the scriptures will harmonize.
Yes scriptures appear to harmonize in this system that is why it is so powerful, all the pieces fit so well together.
The more one immerses oneself in it, the less objective one is able to be.
I know, been there.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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And the beat goes on. You are still wrong and showing no signs of learning anything. Imagine my surprise.

Pr 26:16 The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason

Just something to consider.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You have got to know that I think that fits you better than me, don't you? Isaiah 5:21, Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Just something to consider.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Yes scriptures appear to harmonize in this system that is why it is so powerful, all the pieces fit so well together.
The more one immerses oneself in it, the less objective one is able to be.
I know, been there.
Thank you! Most people on this forum do not try to harmonize the scriptures. If they are presented a scripture that they can not explain, they ignore it. Its like putting a puzzle together. They find a piece that looks like it has all the right ears and and all the colors are right, but when they try to put it in place, one of the ears does not quit fit, so they push real hard to make it fit. They will never finish the puzzle and see the beautiful picture, and Jesus's doctrine is just that, a very beautiful picture.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Thank you! Most people on this forum do not try to harmonize the scriptures. If they are presented a scripture that they can not explain, they ignore it. Its like putting a puzzle together. They find a piece that looks like it has all the right ears and and all the colors are right, but when they try to put it in place, one of the ears does not quit fit, so they push real hard to make it fit. They will never finish the puzzle and see the beautiful picture, and Jesus's doctrine is just that, a very beautiful picture.

The key word is "appear" to harmonize.

But I do agree about how scripture is forced into place to fit a set schema in one's mind, I try to avoid those situations,

I rather stay with the simplicity of Christ that makes theology simple enough that a child can understand.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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He can understand his need to be saved. He may not have all the theological knowledge of some but he can understand that he is a sinner and only Christ can save him.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is only the theological giants of our time that stumble at these simple truths. Sinners know they are sinners. Gods word only brings the conviction of the sin to the front by the Holy Spirit. Too bad that many have long forgotten and no longer trust the word of God to accomplish what God has intended it to accomplish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The natural man does not know that he needs to be saved. He does not understand the spiritual law that tells him that he is a sinner.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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The spiritual things referred to in 1 Cor 2:14 relate to that which Paul spoke among them that are perfect (perfect as in they were "spiritually mature" ... not perfect as in they "do not sin").


1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory


Please note that in 1 Cor 2:1-2, Paul indicates he came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom and that he could go no further with them than Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Not because he didn't want to speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.

But because the church at Corinth was not spiritually mature. They were still in spiritual infancy because they had left off following Christ and had broken off into factions wherein some followed Paul or Apollos, or Cephas:


1 Corinthians 1:

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


And this fact is further corroborated in 1 Cor 3:

1 Corinthians 3:

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


You need to quit throwing up 1 Cor 2:14 as your standard for supporting a doctrine which is not contained in Scripture.

It is clear from Rom 1:18-20 that some reject that which has been revealed to them, not because God does not want them to believe but because they, of their own volition, reject ... even though the eternal power of God is revealed to them. That is why they are without excuse.

They reject, not because they are not part of some so-called "elect" club you continue to insist upon. They reject because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. That is why they are without excuse.
I am sorry that you are not understanding that God's children, born of the Spirit, sometimes, are a depraved and disobedient children and in need of God's chastening rod. All of the scriptures that you use in your attempt to make the natural man have the ability to understand spiritual things, are scriptures that are referring to disobedient children of God.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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I am sorry that you are not understanding that God's children, born of the Spirit, sometimes, are a depraved and disobedient children and in need of God's chastening rod. All of the scriptures that you use in your attempt to make the natural man have the ability to understand spiritual things, are scriptures that are referring to disobedient children of God.
So now you're saying that Paul wasn't even talking about unbelievers in 1 Cor 2:14? If that's the case, then what gives you the right to claim the verse relates to unbelievers?

When Paul wrote

the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead (Rom 1:20)

he did not then state that they could not receive or know them because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul had the ability to make that claim as he did in 1 Cor 2, but Paul didn't say that. What Paul did say is so that they are without excuse.

They are without excuse because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... just as Rom 1:18 says.

But you prefer to go to 1 Cor 2 to explain away the issue because you cannot just read what is written right there in front of your eyes. Take the blinders off your eyes, let God's Word read just as God intended.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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God does not wish . He works by faith as a plan and carries it out as a work of faith.

If he desired to save everybody as every person ever born. He who is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases, He would. As many as the father has given to the Son they will come and that many he will not cast out
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone?

John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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God does not wish . He works by faith as a plan and carries it out as a work of faith.

If he desired to save everybody as every person ever born. He who is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases, He would. As many as the father has given to the Son they will come and that many he will not cast out
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.