Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

[Slayer]

You may show another person but it's up to that person to choose to repent. Finite human minds can't even begin to understand what God already knows of past present and future don't be so bold to say you know Predestination, he knows who will and will not you don't.

We are called to share the Gospel with everyone, because we don't know who Gods elect are. We can only know about our own election, but we can never tell who else might be one of Gods elect.

I have no doubts about my election, God has chosen me to be one of His Saints. I would love to see the rest of my family become saints but that's completely up to God, all I can do is share the Gospel and witness to them.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If Jesus is the propitiation (atonement) for the sins of the whole world, then the whole world is eternally saved, and I am a firm believer that all scripture must harmonize.

I have already explained to you that the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 means "In particular, to become acquainted with, to know, is employed in the N. T. of the knowledge of God and Christ and of the things relating to them or proceeding from them; a. τόν Θεόν, the one, true God, in contrast with the polytheism of the Gentiles: Ro. i. 21 ; ... ". That definition is straight from your beloved Thayer's.

Replacing "ascertain" with "become acquainted with" does not change the fact that Rom 1:21 states the natural man is able to "become acquainted" with His eternal power and Godhead through observation of the natural, physical realm.

You are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness concerning this issue and you are telling God that He cannot allow mankind to reject Him because you won't allow it.




Argue about that with God. He's the One Who made the statement that natural man can and does suppress the truth in unrighteousness:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (Greek katechō - to restrain, hinder, suppress) the truth in unrighteousness.

Notice it's not God Who's suppressing the truth ... it is the ungodly and unrighteous men who suppress the truth.

But that doesn't fit your theory on the sovereignty of God.

God can allow men to reject Him and still remain sovereign.

I understand that you can not accept that you are using scriptures that have reference to the disobedient child of God, but just because you can not accept it does not make it so. your reasoning will not harmonize with all scriptures. I don't think you realize as children of God, we can, at times, do some very bad things. Eph 2:5, says the natural man, at the time of regeneration was "DEAD" in sins, meaning that he was not able to respond to his regeneration.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If Jesus is the propitiation (atonement) for the sins of the whole world, then the whole world is eternally saved, and I am a firm believer that all scripture must harmonize.

Well, when we "harmonize" 1 John 2:2 with Rom 1:18, we find that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), reject the atonement.

When we understand 1 John 2:2 in light of Rom 1:18, we see that it is the unbeliever who rejects Christ's atonement.

Under your doctrine, God rejects Christ's atonement for certain people but accepts Christ's atonement for others.

Under your doctrine, Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world.

I understand that you can not accept that you are using scriptures that have reference to the disobedient child of God, but just because you can not accept it does not make it so. your reasoning will not harmonize with all scriptures. I don't think you realize as children of God, we can, at times, do some very bad things. Eph 2:5, says the natural man, at the time of regeneration was "DEAD" in sins, meaning that he was not able to respond to his regeneration.

Right ... so those who glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened were really just "disobedient" children of God?

Your doctrine is completely without merit and it gets worse if you continue reading through to the end of Rom 1.

How do you "harmonize" that those spoken of from Rom 1:21 - 31 were really just "disobedient" children of God?

 

[LPT]

We are called to share the Gospel with everyone, because we don't know who Gods elect are. We can only know about our own election, but we can never tell who else might be one of Gods elect.

I have no doubts about my election, God has chosen me to be one of His Saints. I would love to see the rest of my family become saints but that's completely up to God, all I can do is share the Gospel and witness to them.

I understand, as for me I'm not worthy of sainthood I'm not good only God is good.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, when we "harmonize" 1 John 2:2 with Rom 1:18, we find that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), reject the atonement.

When we understand 1 John 2:2 in light of Rom 1:18, we see that it is the unbeliever who rejects Christ's atonement.

Under your doctrine, God rejects Christ's atonement for certain people but accepts Christ's atonement for others.

Under your doctrine, Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world.





Right ... so those who glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened were really just "disobedient" children of God?

Your doctrine is completely without merit and it gets worse if you continue reading through to the end of Rom 1.

How do you "harmonize" that those spoken of from Rom 1:21 - 31 were really just "disobedient" children of God?

Its as if you are not even putting your mind thinkability into your consideration of these scriptures. Under Christ's doctrine God accepts Christ's atonement, because Christ's atonement was for exactly as many as God gave him to atone for. In Jesus's doctrine Christ, in obedience to God, was sufficient enough to atone for the exact amount of people that God gave him, and he said none of them would be lost. In your doctrine Christ goes against God's instructions to atone for those that God gave him, and instead, chose to die for all mankind, against his Father's will, and then Christ was not powerful to save all of them. Sounds like the Christ, in Jesus's doctrine, was to the upmost sufficient, and in your doctrine, Christ failed miserably.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Its as if you are not even putting your mind thinkability into your consideration of these scriptures. Under Christ's doctrine God accepts Christ's atonement, because Christ's atonement was for exactly as many as God gave him to atone for. In Jesus's doctrine Christ, in obedience to God, was sufficient enough to atone for the exact amount of people that God gave him, and he said none of them would be lost. In your doctrine Christ goes against God's instructions to atone for those that God gave him, and instead, chose to die for all mankind, against his Father's will, and then Christ was not powerful to save all of them. Sounds like the Christ, in Jesus's doctrine, was to the upmost sufficient, and in your doctrine, Christ failed miserably.

Yes, I have read Romans 1 many times, and Yes, these are disobedient children of God. The depth of God's love for his elect is an amazing wonderment, in that, as vile as we are, he washed all of those sins away, even so much that God says he looks upon us as wholly, and without blame. Our sins are as far away from him as the east is from the west. Yes, the God that I worship has all power to accomplish all his will.

 

[Jewel5712]

Yes and yes...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Its as if you are not even putting your mind thinkability into your consideration of these scriptures. Under Christ's doctrine God accepts Christ's atonement, because Christ's atonement was for exactly as many as God gave him to atone for. In Jesus's doctrine Christ, in obedience to God, was sufficient enough to atone for the exact amount of people that God gave him, and he said none of them would be lost. In your doctrine Christ goes against God's instructions to atone for those that God gave him, and instead, chose to die for all mankind, against his Father's will, and then Christ was not powerful to save all of them. Sounds like the Christ, in Jesus's doctrine, was to the upmost sufficient, and in your doctrine, Christ failed miserably.

How was it against the Father's Will when the Father states that it is His desire that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4)?

Perhaps the issue is not that I am "not even putting [my] mind thinkability into [my] consideration of these scriptures". Perhaps the issue is that your doctrine does not stand up to full scrutiny of the Scriptures and when the full light of Scripture is shined on your doctrine, Scripture reveals the flaws and deficiencies in your doctrine.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, I have read Romans 1 many times, and Yes, these are disobedient children of God. The depth of God's love for his elect is an amazing wonderment, in that, as vile as we are, he washed all of those sins away, even so much that God says he looks upon us as wholly, and without blame. Our sins are as far away from him as the east is from the west. Yes, the God that I worship has all power to accomplish all his will.

Do you see what you have done to Romans 1? Because in your doctrine God does not allow man to reject Him by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, you now claim that the verses from Rom 1:18 through Rom 1:31 are really descriptive of the "disobedient children of God".

So now you're telling me that these verses are not directed to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God. Rather, these verses describe the behavior of the "disobedient children of God" and even though they're "disobedient", they are "elect" and not destined for the lake of fire:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


All because you cannot allow natural man to acknowledge that there is a Creator through observation of the natural, physical creation, and then to further suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How was it against the Father's Will when the Father states that it is His desire that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4)?

Perhaps the issue is not that I am "not even putting [my] mind thinkability into [my] consideration of these scriptures". Perhaps the issue is that your doctrine does not stand up to full scrutiny of the Scriptures and when the full light of Scripture is shined on your doctrine, Scripture reveals the flaws and deficiencies in your doctrine.

All scriptures must harmonize. the "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 has to be 'ALL ELECT MEN" otherwise there are too many scriptures that will not harmonize with the idea that God wanted to save all mankind. If it was God's will that all mankind be saved, then no one would go to hell, and all mankind will be in heaven, and I don't think that will compute. God does accomplish all his will. I think the scriptures prove that fact. The only way that a born again person will be able to see and understand the doctrine that Jesus taught is if the Holy Spirit within that person reveals it to him, an we all will have to deny ourselves (leaning upon our own intellect). before the Holy Spirit will reveal. I can vouch for that from my twelve years depending upon my smartness.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Do you see what you have done to Romans 1? Because in your doctrine God does not allow man to reject Him by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, you now claim that the verses from Rom 1:18 through Rom 1:31 are really descriptive of the "disobedient children of God".

So now you're telling me that these verses are not directed to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God. Rather, these verses describe the behavior of the "disobedient children of God" and even though they're "disobedient", they are "elect" and not destined for the lake of fire:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


All because you cannot allow natural man to acknowledge that there is a Creator through observation of the natural, physical creation, and then to further suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God.

The natural man cannot suppress something that he does not have- The truth. I understand that the only way that you can uphold your belief is to try to allow the natural man the ability to understand spiritual things, but 1 Cor 2:14 says he just simply cannot discern spiritual things,

 

[reneweddaybyday]

All scriptures must harmonize. the "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 has to be 'ALL ELECT MEN"

No the "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 does not have to be "ALL ELECT MEN".

God can (and does) allow mankind to reject Him as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

God can (and does) remain sovereign even though some men reject

otherwise there are too many scriptures that will not harmonize with the idea that God wanted to save all mankind.

The only thing that does not harmonize with Scripture is your faulty doctrine.

If it was God's will that all mankind be saved, then no one would go to hell, and all mankind will be in heaven, and I don't think that will compute. God does accomplish all his will. I think the scriptures prove that fact. The only way that a born again person will be able to see and understand the doctrine that Jesus taught is if the Holy Spirit within that person reveals it to him, an we all will have to deny ourselves (leaning upon our own intellect). before the Holy Spirit will reveal. I can vouch for that from my twelve years depending upon my smartness.

mmm-hmmmm. So rather than allow mankind to reject Him as man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, we'll just teach that Rom 1:18-32 is really a description of "the disobedient child of God" as you claim in your posts #162 and #166.

Rom 1:18-32 does not really describe the unbeliever who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, rejects God, and ends up in the lake of fire.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Do you see what you have done to Romans 1? Because in your doctrine God does not allow man to reject Him by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, you now claim that the verses from Rom 1:18 through Rom 1:31 are really descriptive of the "disobedient children of God".

So now you're telling me that these verses are not directed to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God. Rather, these verses describe the behavior of the "disobedient children of God" and even though they're "disobedient", they are "elect" and not destined for the lake of fire:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


All because you cannot allow natural man to acknowledge that there is a Creator through observation of the natural, physical creation, and then to further suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God.

Yes! We, as children of God, by our fleshly nature are, sometimes, that vile! I understand it probably is very hard to think of yourself that way. God said, "he looked down from heaven upon the children of men, and saw that none would seek after him and that none of them did good, no not one. That is why he choose his elect before the foundation of the world, and had Christ to die for them and make them, in God's eyes, wholly and without blame before him in love, so that he would have a people to praise and worship him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The natural man cannot suppress something that he does not have- The truth. I understand that the only way that you can uphold your belief is to try to allow the natural man the ability to understand spiritual things, but 1 Cor 2:14 says he just simply cannot discern spiritual things,

And you're back to that again.

Rom 1:20 states that the natural, physical realm reveals God's eternal power and Godhead.

That you want the natural, physical realm to be the spiritual things of 1 Cor 2:14 does not make it so.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No the "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 does not have to be "ALL ELECT MEN".

God can (and does) allow mankind to reject Him as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

God can (and does) remain sovereign even though some men reject





The only thing that does not harmonize with Scripture is your faulty doctrine.





mmm-hmmmm. So rather than allow mankind to reject Him as man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, we'll just teach that Rom 1:18-32 is really a description of "the disobedient child of God" as you claim in your posts #162 and #166.

Rom 1:18-32 does not really describe the unbeliever who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, rejects God, and ends up in the lake of fire.

Again, The natural man cannot suppresses something that he does not have- Truth

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes! We, as children of God, by our fleshly nature are, sometimes, that vile! I understand it probably is very hard to think of yourself that way. God said, "he looked down from heaven upon the children of men, and saw that none would seek after him and that none of them did good, no not one. That is why he choose his elect before the foundation of the world, and had Christ to die for them and make them, in God's eyes, wholly and without blame before him in love, so that he would have a people to praise and worship him.

Well, as long as God's "elect" are covered, I guess they can behave as shown in Rom 1:18-32.

Sorry to say, ForestGreenCook, but you've bought into a doctrine we're warned about in Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

And it appears that you've bought into this faulty doctrine hook, line, and sinker!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And you're back to that again.

Rom 1:20 states that the natural, physical realm reveals God's eternal power and Godhead.

That you want the natural, physical realm to be the spiritual things of 1 Cor 2:14 does not make it so.

You will never get your pieces of the puzzle to fit together to see the completed beautiful picture.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Again, The natural man cannot suppresses something that he does not have- Truth

Right ... only God's "disobedient children" can suppress the truth in unrighteousness, reject God, and still be saved because they're "ELECT" ...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You will never get your pieces of the puzzle to fit together to see the completed beautiful picture.

whatever ... you've shown your doctrine to be flawed and defective when fully scrutinized under the full light of Scripture.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, as long as God's "elect" are covered, I guess they can behave as shown in Rom 1:18-32.

Sorry to say, ForestGreenCook, but you've bought into a doctrine we're warned about in Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

And it appears that you've bought into this faulty doctrine hook, line, and sinker!

[/ I think that we have come to the point to say that we will have to agree to disagree, Don't you think?