Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#21
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,503
515
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#23
The law is a perfect example from the perfect God to show why we as gentiles needed a savior and to the Jew why Messiah had to suffer.
Why would one carry around the chains of death if they were set free from them?
Look what the law did to the people of Israel. Loving the law more than God. Creating there own righteousness saying Abraham is there father.
The law cost God his only son for it required innocent blood. ....There is none righteous no not one....for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. What is so appealing about grave clothes?
God has given us his son.....a time of grace....a measure of faith...all we need do is call upon his name.
Every notice that when Jesus was confronted with the issues of the law it was to condemn and not to exhort?
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
338
83
#24
To follow the Law is to deny Yeshua like the Jews did. You basically are saying that Yeshua is not God, just like the Jews.


On the other hand, you cannot jump into the full blown idea of Grace without first understanding what Christ did, who He is, and that it was the Mercy of God who nailed Him to the Cross, just as He proclaimed throughout the Gospels.
God's Mercy begat God's Grace!
Paul's message is vital to our walk in God. But to understand where Paul is coming from, you must understand the message and purpose of Christ!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
39,618
11,783
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#25
True,, but the question is.... do i throw out the law or by grace obey it?
No one obeys the law unless they obey 24/7/365 their whole life.....you break one of the least you are guilty of all.....exactly why the righteousness of Christ is imputed by faith without the deeds/works of the law!

No one has or will keep the law except Jesus!
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,332
149
63
#26
No one obeys the law unless they obey 24/7/365 their whole life.....you break one of the least you are guilty of all.....exactly why the righteousness of Christ is imputed by faith without the deeds/works of the law!

No one has or will keep the law except Jesus!
Does that mean i give up and continue in sin? True we need a saviour, true we need grace. But do we throw the law away and sin. After the imputed righteousness is given by faith do we murder and steal and live in sin? Imparted righteousness is also given to us by Christ.
Christ didn't just come to free us from the consequences of sin but to free us from sinning. Cleaning us is good but if we are still a slave after we are cleaned we are not free from sins chains.
Imparted righteousness is how we are fully cleaned from sin, This is the work of a lifetime and perfection may not happen but if i give up today i will not move forward in Christ.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,332
149
63
#27
The law will not save and can't save. By grace and because of Jesus i can receive power to keep it. All glory goes to Jesus and the result is Christ's imparted righteousness in me.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,518
389
83
#28
Let us end this now....

The law condemns all and points to Grace in Christ.

The end!
I would amend that to include the law guides us.

For the Christian the law is not something negative for we have forgiveness, the law is a positive loving guidance from the Lord.

See Psalm 119.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
4,726
1,617
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#29
I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
As far as our Eternal salvation goes .. YES .. God wants us to believe in His grace that saves and not works..
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,799
1,207
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#30
I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
YES. God absolutely wants you to choose between Law and Grace.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

You are either alive to the law or alive to God.

Choose ONE. If you try to choose both you have chosen neither.


The funny thing about people who are so adamant about following the law is that they don't and they can't. The ONLY way to not break the law is to be dead to it and instead abide in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Once you come to Christ and receive Rest from your work at the law (failing work, failing knowledge, failing strength) you will begin to understand what a Blessing we have Received.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,799
1,207
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#31
It's really a choice between Judaism and Salvation.

Do we have to make a choice between Mans Way and Gods Way?

Yes.

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law is meant to be the guide to bring us to Christ.

After we have come to Christ the guide has done its job and we are no longer following it. We follow someone much Better.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,088
490
83
#32
Do you actually think I am trying to change scripture instead of revealing it? Where in the world did you get the idea from any posting of mine that legalistic law is the law God guides us to?

Do you not understand that we are to be circumcised but not circumcised in the flesh? We are to keep our minds from dirt but we can eat all food? We are to celebrate the feasts but we are not to travel to Jerusalem to do so?

I have never said that scripture tells us that God will look at our works to decide on our salvation and I have said over and over and over that it is through faith. Must I write this in blood for you?

Scripture tells us, and I repeat scripture, that as Christ told us: "if you love me you will obey me".
Lets say you have a point.
In an ideal application where does this end up?
Where .perfectly applied, is the believer,matured and operating on all 8 cylinders, in mazimum benefit from having the law puzzlepieces in fullness revealed?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,799
1,207
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#33
IF you have doubts about Paul then here is the Lord Jesus Christ offering you the choice.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

All of you who labour and are heavy laden by their failing works at the law come to Christ and He will give you rest from your Failure.

It makes no sense to go back to your Failure when you know where Strength and Victory are. Unless you still don't know where your Strength and Victory are located. Hint: its not in your work at the law...
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,799
1,207
113
#34
Lets say you have a point.
In an ideal application where does this end up?
Where .perfectly applied, is the believer,matured and operating on all 8 cylinders, in mazimum benefit from having the law puzzlepieces in fullness revealed?
Haha...

Does God want us to choose between law and Grace?

Absolutely....
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
17,552
4,935
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#35
So how do we put on Christ within us in our daily life?
Romans 13:14 - But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
8,948
4,864
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#36
It's really a choice between Judaism and Salvation.

Do we have to make a choice between Mans Way and Gods Way?

Yes.

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law is meant to be the guide to bring us to Christ.

After we have come to Christ the guide has done its job and we are no longer following it. We follow someone much Better.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Content is important. Galatians chapters 2 and 3 are speaking of them wanting to go back to circumcision. Hebrews 7 is speaking of the priesthood and the tribe of Levi. Saying that Christ is our high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

None of the law keepers here are claiming they do that perfectly or that their salvation rests on it. We are all saved by grace, apart from the law. Only some of us look to the law to define sin. The law is still good for guidance for us. We must keep the spiritual intent of the law as defined in the Beatitudes. :cool:
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,811
7,894
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#38
Content is important. Galatians chapters 2 and 3 are speaking of them wanting to go back to circumcision. Hebrews 7 is speaking of the priesthood and the tribe of Levi. Saying that Christ is our high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

None of the law keepers here are claiming they do that perfectly or that their salvation rests on it. We are all saved by grace, apart from the law. Only some of us look to the law to define sin. The law is still good for guidance for us. We must keep the spiritual intent of the law as defined in the Beatitudes. :cool:
You should reread galations and hebrews, because i do not think you understand them because what you said here is wrong.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,335
2,286
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#39
The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
I agree that they are to be understood by Christians -- properly understood. Unfortunately, there is still a great deal of misunderstanding about this subject. The Law of Moses includes the Ten Commandments, and those have been incorporated into the Law of Christ. Thus love is the fulfilling of the Law. See Romans 13.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,074
825
113
#40
I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.

I would agree the law of faith the unseen eternal not seen, makes the letter of the law which reveals all fall short of the glory without effect. Working together as one perfect law, perfecting the saints all the days of their lives.


Psalm 19:7-8 King James Version (KJV) The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.