Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,769
697
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#61
What is the point of all the back and forth.
What is each sides ultimate template?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,572
1,880
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#62
We are told that we can be circumcised, eat kosher, wash our hands before we eat and that does not make us obedient. We are not to brush our Lord off telling him no I won't do a thing you ask of me as you preach.

James explained what faith is, it has to do with accepting God's word. That means accepting God's instructions about faith, accepting what it does. That means accepting God's guidance with our day to day thoughts and actions.

You cannot rely on actions for salvation. You cannot tell the Lord no to all His guidance except what you mistake for faith.
A Christians Guidance comes from the Holy Spirit.

A Judaizers/Legalists/Pharisees guidance comes from the Law.

Should you choose? Yes. And Scripture helps you.

2 Corinthians 3:7-9
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Ministration of Death - Law or Ministration of the Spirit - Holy Spirit ? Which is better?

Ministration of Condemnation - Law or Ministration of Righteousness - Holy Spirit ? Which is better?

Working at the Law and being under the curse or coming to Christ and receiving Rest from your work at the law and being Blessed?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,359
168
63
#63
God is love the law is spiritual and summed up by love for God and love for man, so grace and the law are from the same God of love, we don't need to separate them. To not murder is to love your neighbour, to not lie is to love to not steal, or covert or commit adultery and to honour your parents is to love your fellow neighbour. To have no other Gods before the Lord, to not take His name in vain, to not bow down to graven images, and to Remember the Sabbath is to love God. True Love for God and our neighbour comes as a result of His Spirit dwelling in us.

1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
6,962
2,758
113
#64
God is love the law is spiritual and summed up by love for God and love for man, so grace and the law are from the same God of love, we don't need to separate them. To not murder is to love your neighbour, to not lie is to love to not steal, or covert or commit adultery and to honour your parents is to love your fellow neighbour. To have no other Gods before the Lord, to not take His name in vain, to not bow down to graven images, and to Remember the Sabbath is to love God. True Love for God and our neighbour comes as a result of His Spirit dwelling in us.

1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
we are to fulfill the righteous intent of the Law, not keep the letter. we are to manifest the fruits of the Sprit.

the letter kills, the Sprit gives life.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,044
1,701
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#65
Would you please show a post that states that the poster is obeying all of God's laws.

It seems to me you are not reading the posts or scripture.
Do you not assert in thread after thread that you're a law keeper? Yes, you do, and it's a well known fact.

Must you also imply that one does not read posts or scripture? Isn't that baseless bearing of false witness? Maligning of another? Yes, it is.

To be honest, you speak way more of yourself, of your law "keeping" than you do of the person and work of Christ. Such a position is not the NT example nor is it what those in Christ glory in.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,046
2,145
113
#66
Do you not assert in thread after thread that you're a law keeper? Yes, you do, and it's a well known fact.

Must you also imply that one does not read posts or scripture? Isn't that baseless bearing of false witness? Maligning of another? Yes, it is.

To be honest, you speak way more of yourself, of your law "keeping" than you do of the person and work of Christ. Such a position is not the NT example nor is it what those in Christ glory in.
The judaizing problem is only prevelant because people misunderstand the COVENANTS. Some believe there are only TWO, "OT and NT". But within both are multiple covenants: The covenant of Noah which is STILL IN EFFECT, the mosaic covenant which is DONE AWAY WITH, the abrahamic covenant which is STILL GOING.

People also often overlook at the fact that the mosaic covenant was mostly about PHYSICAL blessings and curses, based on obedience to the commandments. Real-estate, long life, agricultural blessings, etc
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,795
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#67
we are to fulfill the righteous intent of the Law, not keep the letter. we are to manifest the fruits of the Sprit.

the letter kills, the Sprit gives life.
Amen, as paul said, if you gonna keep parts of the law, your indebted to keep the whole law..and james, if we break one, we are guilty then of all,
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
6,962
2,758
113
#68
Amen, as paul said, if you gonna keep parts of the law, your indebted to keep the whole law..and james, if we break one, we are guilty then of all,
they keep trying to present Sabbath keeping as a " optional requirement ".

there is no such thing as an optional requirement .

it's either all Christ or no entry into the Kingdom.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,795
10,115
113
#69
they keep trying to present Sabbath keeping as a " optional requirement ".

there is no such thing as an optional requirement .

it's either all Christ or no entry into the Kingdom.
The law came as one unit.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,650
461
83
#70
Do you not assert in thread after thread that you're a law keeper? Yes, you do, and it's a well known fact.

Must you also imply that one does not read posts or scripture? Isn't that baseless bearing of false witness? Maligning of another? Yes, it is.

To be honest, you speak way more of yourself, of your law "keeping" than you do of the person and work of Christ. Such a position is not the NT example nor is it what those in Christ glory in.
It is people who preach lawlessness who say these things, not me. I believe in the law. God runs the world by law, spiritual and physical. Man hates the law it is only through the Lord that I can love it.

Man hates anyone who loves God or the law. They know that each man is sinful, including those who love God and the law and they use that, or anything to fight both. So be it. I still love the Lord. I still love the law.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,572
1,880
113
#71
It is people who preach lawlessness who say these things, not me. I believe in the law. God runs the world by law, spiritual and physical. Man hates the law it is only through the Lord that I can love it.

Man hates anyone who loves God or the law. They know that each man is sinful, including those who love God and the law and they use that, or anything to fight both. So be it. I still love the Lord. I still love the law.
What is it about the law that you love?

I love that it brought me to Christ. Swiftly, after I started understanding it.


The law is a humbler. The law shows us our weaknesses. I don't harbor any ill-will to it for showing me the Truth. But in all honesty I would have rather been Strong and Wise.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,769
697
113
#72
If you are a law keeper then your Salvation DOES rest on it. You can't be under the curse and Saved simultaneously.

Obviously, if you place yourself under the curse then you don't know what the Blessing is. Because if you knew what your Blessing was you would never depart from it.

It would be utter ridiculousness for anyone to even suggest to you that you should depart from your Blessing and return to your curse.
Uh,no,if you are saved then you are automatically not violating the law.

What laws do you violate as a born again believer?

No boggey man in keeping the law.

The correct concept is that we are saved by grace,not by keeping the law.
The law giver never changed what was there. He surpassed it and fulfilled it.

Just like innocent blood.
He never changed heavens remedy for sin. He surpassed the levitical animal sacrifice. Now,innocent blood came through the God man.
It is still innocent blood.
Iow we don't NEED the law in a " resident dwelling of God" ,or spirit,soul,and bodies being the temple. Just like you don't need a law book and a birth certificate to prove to yourself that the man at the dinner table is your father.
The Jew did. They lived,breathed and ate the law every moment of every day.

The law or works can never save,but is necessary for rebellion,not salvation.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,572
1,880
113
#74
Uh,no,if you are saved then you are automatically not violating the law.

What laws do you violate as a born again believer?

No boggey man in keeping the law.

The correct concept is that we are saved by grace,not by keeping the law.
The law giver never changed what was there. He surpassed it and fulfilled it.

Just like innocent blood.
He never changed heavens remedy for sin. He surpassed the levitical animal sacrifice. Now,innocent blood came through the God man.
It is still innocent blood.
Iow we don't NEED the law in a " resident dwelling of God" ,or spirit,soul,and bodies being the temple. Just like you don't need a law book and a birth certificate to prove to yourself that the man at the dinner table is your father.
The Jew did. They lived,breathed and ate the law every moment of every day.

The law or works can never save,but is necessary for rebellion,not salvation.
Well that is your emotional response. But I don't see a whole lot of scripture to back it up.

Here's one for you to think about.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Can a person simultaneously place himself under the curse and the blessing of Salvation?

Romans 8:1-5
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,475
5,063
113
#75
It is people who preach lawlessness who say these things, not me. I believe in the law. God runs the world by law, spiritual and physical. Man hates the law it is only through the Lord that I can love it.

Man hates anyone who loves God or the law. They know that each man is sinful, including those who love God and the law and they use that, or anything to fight both. So be it. I still love the Lord. I still love the law.
Fallacies: generalization, straw man, and irrelevant appeal.

I'm still waiting for your response to my debunking of your "testament =/= covenant" post.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,769
697
113
#76
Well that is your emotional response. But I don't see a whole lot of scripture to back it up.

Here's one for you to think about.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Can a person simultaneously place himself under the curse and the blessing of Salvation?

Romans 8:1-5
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
I dont think you know what i said.
I understand saved by grace.
I understand those born again don't normally break the law.
What laws do you break as a born again believer?
Try thinking out of the law box.
I am not talking about keeping the law as a concious effort,just pointing out no christian goes around breaking the law.

Hope that wasn't too emotional for you, rolleyes
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#77
Show me some one who professes to be a Christian and thinks it is fine to commit adultery, steal, murder, lie, take the Lords name in vain, etc and I will have been shown someone who is not a Christian at all. What was written in the law is in believers hearts and minds. It is not a written down law anymore. Because it is in your heart, you in your heart want to live according to what has been placed there. It is instinctive to you.
However, those who stress ''you must obey the ten commandments'' with the inference heaven is attained by doing so, appear not to understand what that fully entails. Paul gave an example from his own life as to why he was condemned by the letter of the Ten Commandments. He did not say he was condemned because he could not stop stealing, lying, murdering, committing adultery. He was condemned by them for he broke the law relating to the inner man, the law only God need know you break. You can break the Ten Commandments in thought and mind. So unless you obey that law as it were, you fail to obey the law engraven in stone. Those truly born again cannot and do not ignore how God wants them to live, according to what was once a written down moral law, neither do those with their eyes open base entering heaven on its obedience, for they know, as Paul stated: ''The letter kills'' in that regard
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,359
168
63
#78
Condemnation comes when you sin and sin is pointed out by the law.
Satan and guilt condemns us. Rom 8. 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

God wrote it on stone and said He would write it on our hearts so we can know what is sin. To obey the spiritual law in our lives is what Jesus did and we should aim to follow.
Not to earn salvation, that is not possible but because we want to bear the fruit of the Spirit. If we are walking in the Spirit we will not disobey the Spirit which means we will obey the laws, which means no condemnation.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#79
Condemnation comes when you sin and sin is pointed out by the law.
Satan and guilt condemns us. Rom 8. 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

God wrote it on stone and said He would write it on our hearts so we can know what is sin. To obey the spiritual law in our lives is what Jesus did and we should aim to follow.
Not to earn salvation, that is not possible but because we want to bear the fruit of the Spirit. If we are walking in the Spirit we will not disobey the Spirit which means we will obey the laws, which means no condemnation.
You understand that breaking the Ten Commandments can be done concerning law relating to the inner man. Law only you and God need know you break, you can sin against the ten commandments in your mind and thoughts. If you are not faultless concerning that law, you cannot say you obey fully the ten commandments can you

I totally agree with you, the law God desires believers to follow is written in their minds and placed on their hearts. As you must know in your mind what has placed their, and as sin is the transgression of the law, you must have conviction of sin when you transgress the law within you.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,359
168
63
#80
All have sinned which means all are guilty and comdemned to death.
PRAISE GOD FOR JESUS. We are freed from sin and guilt by the blood of Jesus.

My question is..
Do people need the blood of Jesus today to free them from condemnation?
If yes..what is condemning us?