Does man have a libertarian free will?

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Does man have a libertarian free will?

  • Yes, man has a libertarian free will

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • No, man does not have a libertarian free will

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Total voters
    29
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#22
So do you think you had some good in you, before God saved you? I know I did not!

Perhaps God did me a big favour, by allowing me to fall into a deep, dark pit before he saved me. There was no doubt in my mind I was depraved, even totally depraved, although I had never heard those terms until decades after God saved me.

I tried over and over to pull myself up by the bootstraps. It would work for a day or maybe more. But then, the total depravity would reassert itself. I started reading the Bible, but I was blind, it made no sense to me. People told me about Jesus, and how a sinner's prayer would save me. I said a sinner's prayer, and nothing happened. It was just my will.

But, when God lifted me out of that pit, in less than an instant, I was a new, redeemed person. I was changed, and had a new heart. I didn't decide anything, God called me, and I was a new creature in Christ. There was no change of my will, but a complete reordering of who I was by the Holy Spirit.

Maybe it is harder if you are a pretty good person, living a decent life, to acknowledge your own depravity. One might say, "Oh, I'm not perfect, but I try my best." What does "trying your best:" have to do with the will and purpose of God? If you are not transformed by the power of God, you are still as lost in that dark pit as I was, but you don't even realize it.

Be sure God has called you to this great a salvation. I am not saying that a belief system saves you. But certainly, in order to repent of your sin, you can't say that some areas need repenting, but I am 50% or 75% or even 2% good. Better to understand that no one is good, except God alone, (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19) and go from darkness to light. From total depravity to walking with Christ in his fullness.
I agree, I never understood the sinners prayer.

I agree that when I understood the whole Gospel in context, understood my inability to achieve what Christ Jesus had already accomplished, I was persuaded/convicted.

I see this as a passive result, not a decision, no one can decide to believe, it is a matter of being persuaded which is entirely different.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#23
Exactly, so how does it have any bearing on the discussion of scripture.

Well I do not agree with that guy either. ;)

I see no bearing of the philosophical debate of 'free will" versus "determinism" as it relates to scripture, it sets up a false dichotomy from which all arguments seem to flow.
Scripture teaches that man doesn't have an autonomous free will. The importance is that the sinner is brought to humility and should realize that his salvation was totally a work of God, if he understands the slavery that he was under as an unregenerate person.

Plus, you really can't understand multiple Scriptures talking about the blindness of the unsaved man..

I know that at the moment God opened my eyes, I was horrified by my sinful state, and the fact that Satan was holding me captive to sin. I really don't think most non-Reformed people appreciate this. And, it could be that some aren't even saved yet, because I would think that experiencing this would have led them to see the issues with their anthropology.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,863
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#24
So do you think you had some good in you, before God saved you? I know I did not!

Perhaps God did me a big favour, by allowing me to fall into a deep, dark pit before he saved me. There was no doubt in my mind I was depraved, even totally depraved, although I had never heard those terms until decades after God saved me.

I tried over and over to pull myself up by the bootstraps. It would work for a day or maybe more. But then, the total depravity would reassert itself. I started reading the Bible, but I was blind, it made no sense to me. People told me about Jesus, and how a sinner's prayer would save me. I said a sinner's prayer, and nothing happened. It was just my will.

But, when God lifted me out of that pit, in less than an instant, I was a new, redeemed person. I was changed, and had a new heart. I didn't decide anything, God called me, and I was a new creature in Christ. There was no change of my will, but a complete reordering of who I was by the Holy Spirit.

Maybe it is harder if you are a pretty good person, living a decent life, to acknowledge your own depravity. One might say, "Oh, I'm not perfect, but I try my best." What does "trying your best:" have to do with the will and purpose of God? If you are not transformed by the power of God, you are still as lost in that dark pit as I was, but you don't even realize it.

Be sure God has called you to this great a salvation. I am not saying that a belief system saves you. But certainly, in order to repent of your sin, you can't say that some areas need repenting, but I am 50% or 75% or even 2% good. Better to understand that no one is good, except God alone, (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19) and go from darkness to light. From total depravity to walking with Christ in his fullness.
this message spoke to me. especially this part:

I tried over and over to pull myself up by the bootstraps. It would work for a day or maybe more. But then, the total depravity would reassert itself.
this is my life.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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#25
Was the good soil totally depraved or what?

(Mat 13:8 But other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundred times as much, some sixty, and some thirty.)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#26
Scripture teaches that man doesn't have an autonomous free will. The importance is that the sinner is brought to humility and should realize that his salvation was totally a work of God, if he understands the slavery that he was under as an unregenerate person.

Plus, you really can't understand multiple Scriptures talking about the blindness of the unsaved man..

I know that at the moment God opened my eyes, I was horrified by my sinful state, and the fact that Satan was holding me captive to sin. I really don't think most non-Reformed people appreciate this. And, it could be that some aren't even saved yet, because I would think that experiencing this would have led them to see the issues with their anthropology.

Yes, while scripture does not teach man has an autonomous free will, neither do I see human automatons.

Creating extreme positions does not really elucidate truth.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#27
The word "autonomous" means "self-law".

In other words, the person is self-governing in the free-willer theology. He is not affected by external influences, including God.

This is what libertarian free will teaches. It posits that the will has not been corrupted by the fall, and has the power of contrary choice, or the power to act against one's nature.

By the way, God himself doesn't act contrary to his nature. So, vain man thinks that he can act according to a nature he doesn't possess, and that the will is a separate component from his corrupted soul.
It is sad that you know nothing of free will theology. But do know enough about goading to make a go of it. I would agree it is sad save for your dedication to the pursuit.
That makes it quite pathetic.
Perhaps God will move in your life so that you find you have one worth more than what you undertake here.
 

Whispered

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#28
Most of the world worships their own will.

I don't think they like being shown that their will is useless. I don't think they want to understand even if they had the capacity to.


Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Its kind of funny that almost everyone thinks they are a good person. They have made up in their own mind what a good person does and doesn't do and thats what they are.


Its the same here with those who argue AGAINST Gods Sovereignty and Omniscience. They have made up in their own mind what is good and what is not. For them worship of the will is over all. Even God is secondary. God can't do something if man wills against it. Its like little children throwing temper tantrums. You don't really expect it from adults but here it is.

But it is God who has Chosen. It is God who has Created His Kingdom.

Matthew 6:9-10
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Amen.
Of course it is nonsense for anyone to say, most of the world worships its own will.

Though I guess one unaware extremist does need support in their efforts here.
Imagine the god the two of you conjure of your own imaginings. Perhaps you should seek it out elsewhere than in the Bible , where it does not dwell. Or within a Christian community where it is not known. However, it does appear you both are in relationship with it, and it clearly inspires you to act preaching its foul doctrine that is antichrist.
Try as you might and with great effort to bring it forth here so as to affirm its presence undeterred, and in that effort resort to calling Christians all manner of foul names , while trying to insult the intelligence that does not fall for your god's doctrine.

The true God of Heaven and earth and all of creation see's you both, and all others in your cult.
While it may seem benign here, you all shall be judged for all that you've done, all that you've said, and all that you've thought, as you work against the Kingdom of the True Christ.

I would say, may God have mercy upon your souls. However, with the ever deepening commitment to your agendas, and the repeated blasphemies the lot of you thus committed have repeated and presume to push thread after thread, I do not think I have that right. Because you all clearly do not know my God. Which is that God, Heavenly Father, of every Christian here.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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#29
So, the Prodigal son had no choice, except to return? His older brother had no option but anger?
 

Whispered

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#30
So, the Prodigal son had no choice, except to return? His older brother had no option but anger?
Of course they had a choice. The choices they made are what make the parable work to deliver the message that all is not lost for those who think they are leaving Christianity, Christ, walking away so as to live as they wish in the world. They may have lost faith in their Father, but their Father will never lose faith in them.
When the world becomes too much, when all is lost, that son (or daughter) of Christ is always able to go home. Because they never stopped being in relationship with their Father. And the Father will welcome them with a glad heart and celebration. While the "brother", would be the adversary to all that, which is why he is angered that the lost does not remain so to the Father.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,649
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#31
Yes, while scripture does not teach man has an autonomous free will, neither do I see human automatons.
Obviously such terminology will not be found in the Bible. But man's free will is on display from Genesis to Revelation FOR THOSE WHO WANT THE TRUTH. Those who prefer lies can (and do) make up their own theology.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
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#32
Yes, while scripture does not teach man has an autonomous free will, neither do I see human automatons.

Creating extreme positions does not really elucidate truth.
Again, that's a strawman. Reformed people don't believe that.

They believe God changes the nature, reclaiming his creation for its intended purpose. Faith and repentance flow from this changed nature.

The heart of flesh replaces the heart of stone.

This is more coherent than the free-willer view, which claims that you must dredge faith and repentance from a stony heart, to receive a heart of flesh.

This is what it all boils down to :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#33
It is sad that you know nothing of free will theology. But do know enough about goading to make a go of it. I would agree it is sad save for your dedication to the pursuit.
That makes it quite pathetic.
Perhaps God will move in your life so that you find you have one worth more than what you undertake here.
Wrong.

I am accurate in my presentation.

The free-willer claim is that the sinner must dredge faith and repentance from a stony heart, in order to receive a heart of flesh. The Reformed claim is that God gives the sinner a new heart, to replace the stony heart, which is, in essence, a change in nature, and faith and repentance flow from this new heart of flesh.

Libertarian free will denies the severity of the damage to the entire being of mankind at the Fall, instead claiming that the will has not been contaminated and can be called upon to dredge up this faith and repentance.

This is what it all boils down to :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#34
Was the good soil totally depraved or what?

(Mat 13:8 But other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundred times as much, some sixty, and some thirty.)
This parable is describing the results of preaching the gospel. The gospel is fruitful in some cases, and not in others.

This doesn't say anything about what prepared the good soil for an effective response to the gospel.

Regeneration is what prepares this soil, if one is viewing it as being the individual person. Like I have said, regeneration gives the sinner a new heart of flesh, to replace the stony heart of the unsaved person, so that they respond in faith and repentance.

If you want to claim that the soil was better quality by nature and that is why it responded, then you introduce the grounds for boasting, that Paul says no one has. In other words, the person can claim they were saved simply because they were better soil by nature, aside from grace.

Ephesians 2:1-10
 

Whispered

Well-known member
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#35
Wrong.

I am accurate in my presentation.

The free-willer claim is that the sinner must dredge faith and repentance from a stony heart, in order to receive a heart of flesh. The Reformed claim is that God gives the sinner a new heart, to replace the stony heart, which is, in essence, a change in nature, and faith and repentance flow from this new heart of flesh.

Libertarian free will denies the severity of the damage to the entire being of mankind at the Fall, instead claiming that the will has not been contaminated and can be called upon to dredge up this faith and repentance.

This is what it all boils down to :)
What it boils down to is that you follow a false teacher. And therefore, your theology shall ever be false. This is where you get your information from. The Error of Libertarian Free Will - Calvinist Corner
What you are actually pushing here is known as, Determinism, which denies free will entirely.

As another matter the term you are actually looking for is not the words, free willer, which are not actually a category in philosophy, but rather the proper term is, compatibilist free will .
 

Whispered

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#36
This parable is describing the results of preaching the gospel. The gospel is fruitful in some cases, and not in others.

This doesn't say anything about what prepared the good soil for an effective response to the gospel.

Regeneration is what prepares this soil, if one is viewing it as being the individual person. Like I have said, regeneration gives the sinner a new heart of flesh, to replace the stony heart of the unsaved person, so that they respond in faith and repentance.

If you want to claim that the soil was better quality by nature and that is why it responded, then you introduce the grounds for boasting, that Paul says no one has. In other words, the person can claim they were saved simply because they were better soil by nature, aside from grace.

Ephesians 2:1-10
Your first part of the argument is contrary to Calvinism. The Gospel does not have an affect on the Totally Depraved, nor are they able to understand the Gospel, unless or until TULIP's god has forced a person to be in his Irresistible Grace.
You know this.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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#37
This parable is describing the results of preaching the gospel. The gospel is fruitful in some cases, and not in others.
Regardless of the results the soil was good according to Jesus' words.

This doesn't say anything about what prepared the good soil for an effective response to the gospel.
True, Jesus stated the soil was part of the "field", no mention of some kind of gospel soil preparation to receive the "seed".

Regeneration is what prepares this soil, if one is viewing it as being the individual person.
That's not what the parable states - you are putting words in Jesus' mouth.

If you want to claim that the soil was better quality by nature and that is why it responded, then you introduce the grounds for boasting
Not necessarily

In other words, the person can claim they were saved simply because they were better soil by nature, aside from grace.
Repeating the same eisegesis error and mixing and matching concepts.

You have the same problem with this:

(John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and exclaimed, "Look, a true Israelite in whom there is no deceit!" )

He had no guile/deceit before "regeneration".
 

Whispered

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#38
It is known as the Parable of the Sower.

Source: Bible Study Tools
The Parable of the Sower was told to the crowd that had gathered around Jesus. Jesus tells a story of a sower who scattered seeds on four different types of soil. The first type of ground was hard and the seed could not sprout or grow at all and became snatched up instantly. The second type of ground was stony. The seed was able to plant and begin to grow, however it could not grow deep roots and withered in the sun. The third type of ground was thorny and although the seed could plant and grow, it could not compete with the amount of thorns that overtook it. The fourth ground was good soil that allowed the seed to plant deep, grow strong, and produce fruit.
Jesus used this parable to explain to his followers and the disciples how there are different responses to the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. The sower in the parable is Jesus and the seed is the word of God (both Jesus's spoken word and today the Bible). The hard ground represents someone with a hardened heart full of sin that hears the word of God but does not accept it. Satan is able to keep this person from growing at all. The stony ground is someone who shows interest and awareness in the Gospel, yet his heart isn't fully convicted so that when trouble comes his faith is not strong enough to stand. The thorny ground is a person who receives the Gospel but who has many other idols and distractions in life - worries, riches, and lusts, which take over his mind and heart and he cannot grow in the truth of God's Word. The good soil is someone who has heard and received the Word of God and allows it to take root and grow within his life. This person represents true salvation that bears good fruit.
Jesus spoke the Parable of the Sower to teach how important the state of our heart is to receiving the Gospel and how our salvation is proved by our choices and actions after hearing the Gospel.


Matthew 13:1-23

1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.” 10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
 

Whispered

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#39
And here so as not to confuse the post , the Parable of the Sower, with this new information, I've made a separate post so as to illustrate how Calvinism, Reformed Doctrinaires, corrupt what is in scripture so as to have it comport with their errant theology.
In the Biblical Parable, Jesus is the sower and the word of God, the Gospel, is the seed.

But here at Ligonier ministries, dedicated to Calvinism , we have their title making the parable about the soil! That is not my judgment but rather the ministry's declaration. (From the link below: "...Though this parable is more commonly named after the sower of the seed, the “parable of the soils” is a more fitting title. " Remember now, the sower, which is Christ, is judged by Legonier not to be a fitting title, so they changed it to make it about the soils. How many "soils" are in the Parable? )

The Parable of the Soils | Reformed Bible Studies ...

And to be clearer because unfortunately those dedicated to the false teaching of Calvin have accused me of hatred for Calvinism, and so as to let you all know, no, I do not hate Calvinism.
Rather, I object to false teachings of men because they lead innocent uninformed people to risk their eternal soul to untruth.
I pity those who are dedicated to false teachers and their teachings. Unless they find truth in Christ and renounce the falsity that, in this case, is Calvinism and any Reformed church that ascribes to TULIP, they will regret eternally their choice.
That is a travesty.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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#40
It's too bad those reformed tulips aren't sealed :ROFL: